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The Medic
Stranger


Registered: 06/08/15
Posts: 29
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: invitro]
#21819690 - 06/17/15 04:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Really? I had no idea about coir holding so much water...I have no idea where I can obtain it, however.
My bad, I suppose cinder would be a more descriptive term for it.
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: The Medic]
#21819719 - 06/17/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Medic said: Well, I was hoping it didn't come to this, but after realizing that grains need a pressure cooker, I had to do some last minute research about other viable methods that some people have done with success.
Vermiculite is not an option for me, due to several reasons which I won't delve into. And I don't have the tools to properly sterilize grain due to those deep endospores, as the cheapest pressure cooker I can get which has the proper PSI is 70$ and seems to have a fair amount of malfunctions reflected in reviews.
I loaded up my half-pint jars full with wet sponges covered in brown rice flour. I removed the sponges from the sealed bag (non-soap variety, and what I believe to be plain), gave them a 5 minute rinse, and let them drain before cutting them up into very small pieces. At this point they were moist, but had dried out somewhat as cutting them up took a good 30 minutes to get them small enough. I then poured freshly brewed coffee through them after putting them in the strainer again. By doing this I hopefully got a decent mix of coffee and water. After this I poured 1 and a half 1/3rd cup of BRF onto them and mixed the sponges well.
Sterilization was 90 minutes on the stove in a pot of boiling water with about one inch of water. I'm hoping that the sponges were sterile or at least had no endospores; thinking back I should have boiled the sponges in water first before doing anything.
Has anybody tried this themselves?
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: The Medic]
#21819763 - 06/17/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Medic said: Really? I had no idea about coir holding so much water...I have no idea where I can obtain it, however.
My bad, I suppose cinder would be a more descriptive term for it.
Coir: Pet stores(lizard bedding), hydro stores, gardening supply centers, farm fertilizer supply stores, ebay, amazon.
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: invitro]
#21819794 - 06/17/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said:
Quote:
The Medic said: Really? I had no idea about coir holding so much water...I have no idea where I can obtain it, however.
My bad, I suppose cinder would be a more descriptive term for it.
Coir: Pet stores(lizard bedding), hydro stores, gardening supply centers, farm fertilizer supply stores, ebay, amazon.
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#21821887 - 06/18/15 01:23 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
36fuckin5 said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said: mycelium can and will fruit on rockwool cubes and florists sponge if taken care of and you find a way to keep hydrated( with a nutrient solution if you want several flushes)!
good luck 
doc charlie used to use florists sponge and i have used 3inch rockwool blocks injected with liquid culture and fed with a nutrient solution and fruited the blocks in a SGFC like you would pf cakes.
its all in the realms of possibility! keep experimenting 
I want proof of this.
you want proof that cube mycelium will colonise and inert substrate and fruit?
why would you need proof its self explanitory. after all RR has colonised lots of things with lc and fruited off of them lol a bible springs to mind as does dollar bill!
c'mon it aint that hard to do or imagine, you talk like its impossible.
im still inventing and havent a tek written up for obvious reasons. if your really interested have a look here for a glimpse- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21373595/page/5/fpart/1/vc/1
oneday i will have it down and will make a full tek but untill then im not going to release pics, especially of fruits from LC as this has been done and proved possible lots of times and serves no purpose and will only put my permeable membrane idea at risk prematurly lol
when i have broken new ground i will show it
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21821966 - 06/18/15 01:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Bibles and money contain lignin. His experiments weren't just guesses.
Pics or it didn't happen. If you grew Cubensis on an inert substance like rockwool fed with LC, RR owes you a microscope.
That thread had no pics for proof.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: 36fuckin5]
#21822046 - 06/18/15 02:11 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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no he dont! until i have made a proper glycogen and mineral nutrient solution at best i have made a continual rehydration device that can deliver nutrients in a correct and efficient way that allows a 'midground' for enzyme activity to break down polymers into monomers and flow of h20 and these minerals are limited/controlled by osmotic pressure created by the mycelium and moved around the network by active transport by the mycelium itself.
only thing this does is take away the need for dunking as the sub stays at the perfect water content forever. its a novelty at best and am only doing it for fun to prove it can be! i just want to prove it possible not reinvent the wheel lol maybe after me someone will develope the idea to the point it becomes efficient and usable in the hobby.
imagine how much quicker and simpler it is just to use LC to colonise a preformed rockwool cube and the set these in a SGFC to fruit. cheaper and simplified way to grow for the hobbyist
the nutrient get used up but im not sure they still do use it once fruiting has been iniciated. so more tests needed. it may not be possible to extend fruiting indefinitely to point of senescence as the mycelium may switch functions from digesting to fruiting functions and not do both at the same time- rendering the nutrients useless after a certain point and possibly causing a stress and delay in fruiting as there is always more nutrients to digest so some substrains just want to keep eating as its thinking there is still more sub to colonise.
until the solution is sorted its not hydroponics so rr wins. 
i am still to implement trials of rockwool slabs in monotubs lol i have a busy life with lots of kids and lots of time consuming hobbies so progress is slow lol
pyrotechnics is my thing at the moment lol
so if you want proof by way of pics your just going to have to wait as if i show pics the membrane can easily be reverse engineered and i dont want it stolen before patent. patent is the only reward and recognition i am likely to receive so i keeping my cards held close for now lol
if you want you can fact check the science behind it and you will see it stands up quite well. use a bit of imagination and you should easily get the idea.
doc charlie and blackout have done basically the same thing http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4572225
maybe you could ask blackout how he got on ? im sure he will be willing to answer your Qs.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/18/15 02:22 AM)
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Purplecapz
The Wandering Psilosopher



Registered: 06/16/13
Posts: 60
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: BLINKfan420]
#21822064 - 06/18/15 02:15 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BLINKfan420 said: I'm curious as to how you're going to reuse these sponges.. you don't think the myc will eat them up if this does work? These are REAL sponges right? Not some synthetic stuff? (BTW I've never heard of anything like this so idk.)
And no Walmart around for verm? If you live in the boonies, sticks, whatever, no one has any use for verm when it comes to gardening, etc.? Just wondering.
I hope this gets interesting.
Good luck!
BLiNK
Wait, you've got something here.
"Why Are Natural Sea Sponges Better Than Synthetic Sponges?
When synthetic sponges are made, they are injected with triclosan, which is classified as a pesticide that fights bacteria. In addition, cotton products are processed with chlorine and other chemicals to ensure they are clean. Unfortunately, these chemicals have been linked to a variety of problems, from skin rashes to cancer. Not to mention all the waste and the toxins that are emitted back into the environment during the processing of synthetic sponges and as they break down from use. "
As far as I know, mycelium absorbs things, not sure if that means they will be toxic or not but apparently it's something to be suspicious about in my opinion. However it would also be interesting to see what would happen with sea sponges. Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there. This is still going to be interesting. Paul Stamets grows mushrooms on oil spills
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shellzenone
Zen



Registered: 12/11/14
Posts: 688
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21822072 - 06/18/15 02:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I remember reading a tek that claimed a pressure cooker was not needed. It described letting the grain ferment and build bacteria to a point that you could inoculate in open air. I'll see if I can find it...
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: shellzenone]
#21822083 - 06/18/15 02:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post a picture of this frankencake.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: Purplecapz]
#21822095 - 06/18/15 02:29 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Purplecapz said:
Quote:
BLINKfan420 said: I'm curious as to how you're going to reuse these sponges.. you don't think the myc will eat them up if this does work? These are REAL sponges right? Not some synthetic stuff? (BTW I've never heard of anything like this so idk.)
And no Walmart around for verm? If you live in the boonies, sticks, whatever, no one has any use for verm when it comes to gardening, etc.? Just wondering.
I hope this gets interesting.
Good luck!
BLiNK
Wait, you've got something here.
"Why Are Natural Sea Sponges Better Than Synthetic Sponges?
When synthetic sponges are made, they are injected with triclosan, which is classified as a pesticide that fights bacteria. In addition, cotton products are processed with chlorine and other chemicals to ensure they are clean. Unfortunately, these chemicals have been linked to a variety of problems, from skin rashes to cancer. Not to mention all the waste and the toxins that are emitted back into the environment during the processing of synthetic sponges and as they break down from use. "
As far as I know, mycelium absorbs things, not sure if that means they will be toxic or not but apparently it's something to be suspicious about in my opinion. However it would also be interesting to see what would happen with sea sponges. Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there. This is still going to be interesting. Paul Stamets grows mushrooms on oil spills 
paul stamets also invented colonising straw bales with oysters and build a wall in a river with the bales so the bales stick out the water and fruit. the mycelium filters pollutants out of the river like a filter!
this is similar to doc charlies experiments with a floral sponge wedged in a jar of LC so the myc can climb on and fruit.
these things have been shown time and again to work. so hydro shrooms certainly are a plausible option. the sticking point is the nutrients need to be mineral based for the classification of hydroponics- and our fungi prob would also have to be classed as plant for it to be hydroponics and as they are not... scientifcally the classification is impossible without re-adjusting present definitions to allow fungi into this group.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/18/15 02:34 AM)
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21822101 - 06/18/15 02:31 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think cubes need more than just water soluble nutrients to fruit.
Do you disagree?
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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for mycelium to live it needs its energy source- sugar(glycogen) and the other minerals. to fruit it just needs enough of this to do it!( myc will fruit/pin on agar with only malt extract so why is it so hard for you to concieve the idea that they can with the nutrients in brewing wort! its the same thing just alot more nutrient rich!!!!)
malt extract im sorry to tell you is dehydrated brewing wort! my way is just a better version of POM TEK by anne that is proved to fruit! http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20643482/fpart/1/vc/1
and fruits shown there too.
and it has a proven history right back to albert hoffmann himself who started the journey!
fruits can be grown with just LC or nutrient enriched semi solid agar!
plenty people have proved this. one such experiment you could try for yourself is- fill a jar with LC , wedge a circle piece of floral foam in the top opening just touching the LC.
First a floater(floating myc) will be made but it will then hop onto the foam and when it is colonised and is getting FAE you get FRUITS.
its a crude method but simple to try and it works so it proves my point. now you may only get minimal fruits but that is another point entirely!
the problem is working out an efficient way to do it! my system relys on the mycelium itself to control the amounts of solution it draws( osmotic pressure that myc uses in nature to absorb water)_ and to distribute it itself.
so yes i u disagree and so does the science.
and please remember i said its only a novelty! just to prove the science behind it. sorry im just a geek with aspergers who has 1 to many hobbys lol
just curious... what makes you believe they cant fruit on water based nutrients? if its about chitin... they dont need it in the sub in any large amount. the cells are made of chitin yes... but look at the levels of chitin and lignin in BRF and then look at the amount of fruits this produces. this amount of fruits contains way more chitin and lignin than the sub ever had to begin with! so its a moot point.
adding lignin and chitin as an additive is not needed, it may be helpful to have a ready supply of these but it is not needed! sorry thats science again!
Edited by mustangbob3 (06/18/15 04:09 AM)
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The Medic
Stranger


Registered: 06/08/15
Posts: 29
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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I'm not really sure if I'm comfortable to "do" pictures. In any case there's nothing to see right now anyway, just a bunch of finely cut up sponges covered in BRF. I remember I found a thread on here about a guy that did exactly what I'm doing, and he had pictures - that's where I got the idea from.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: The Medic]
#21822243 - 06/18/15 03:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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blackout has done basically the same thing! he talks about it in this thread- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4572225
and here- http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21020411#21020411
seems agar has tried something along these lines too, well a casing layer of sponges cut up lol http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4433983#4433983
cant wait to see your results
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/18/15 04:12 AM)
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: The Medic]
#21822248 - 06/18/15 03:56 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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If just for novelties sake, sure you can get cubes to fruit off a lot of things... obviously including petris and LCs. I've seen it myself more times than I can remember.
Possible to grow shrooms the way you're proposing on a large scale? I don't know.. I don't think so.
Cool thread anyways, I enjoyed reading it.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Quote:
TheEaglesGift said: If just for novelties sake, sure you can get cubes to fruit off a lot of things... obviously including petris and LCs. I've seen it myself more times than I can remember.
Possible to grow shrooms the way you're proposing on a large scale? I don't know.. I don't think so.
Cool thread anyways, I enjoyed reading it.
thats why its a novelty 
it proves its possible and with what i have done they yeild as well as average pf cakes! keeping the sub fully hydrated all the time is only going to be of benefit. lots of things to work out still- but thats the fun of it!
as its possible i think at some point someone will perfect the process and it may be a game changer for mushroom growers the world over edible or actives.
the best thing is the simplicity of it and cheapness. and no skill required! a simple as sealing the block in a bag- injecting large amount of nutrient rich LC. after colonised the membrane is inserted in the hole conveniently cut into the top of the rockwool cube . the mycelium is allowed to grow into this membrane area and then nutrients turned 'on' and fruited. constant evapouration from the block creates osmotic pressure in the mycelium which then draws water through the membrane and distributes it evenly in the network. the mycelium releases enzymes into the membrane to brake down polymer minerals into monomers that can be taken up!
the process is there it just needs lots of work on little areas to improve efficiency.

oneday i will give it ago with a slab of rockwool cut to fit a monotub and see if the mycelium copes with transporting everything around a large sub. i imagine it will cope fine!
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The Medic
Stranger


Registered: 06/08/15
Posts: 29
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21822794 - 06/18/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks mate, I appreciate the links.
I just hope that the sponges didn't have any anti-bacterial stuff on them. They smelled funny when I pulled them out of the bag, and said on them "these sponges are not meant to kill or sanitize on surfaces". However, they did say that the sponges "resist odors", so whatever. It's an experiment
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: The Medic]
#21823372 - 06/18/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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antibacterial would actually do you good, you are trying to grow fungi not bacteria
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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The Medic
Stranger


Registered: 06/08/15
Posts: 29
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Using sponges as substrate? [Re: Aero]
#21823766 - 06/18/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aero said: antibacterial would actually do you good, you are trying to grow fungi not bacteria
I believe it was a general disinfectant/warder of foreign things grow. We'll have to see.
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