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InvisibleKurt
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Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: xFrockx [Re: xFrockx]
    #21806939 - 06/14/15 03:45 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So props on teaching me a bit about greek, but you're trying to talk about a work of philosophy using only your knowledge of one greek root word. You made inferences about the work based on that, that I saw as evidence you had obviously never read it, which you seem uncomfortable admitting.




I am perfectly comfortable, but would say that for my own reasons I do not agree with your speculations. :-)

I am impressed that you came near to admitting an error in your reading, but if you consider my point respectively, this point of context is actually not something I was suggesting to prop myself up upon.

I would say a reductio ad absurdum argument is sufficient in itself to put a bad argument to rest.  I don't think I need a biblical testament to indicate that your "point" up there was a poorly constructed misappropriation anyway. Don't mistake or convolude the burden of arguments. I think it is an interesting move you make to hold to what you are saying that the apology is not an apology "as a defense". 

To my latter point that Socrates stepped in some proverbial political shit; well, that goes mostly without saying and is unspoken of or only alluded to in the text. It would be a point that could be made contextually as well. Maybe I could elaborate this point of context, in respect to your orthodox reading which you are standing by (well I know we are frankly calling this "reading" thus far...)

So correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from your disagreement with my latter point on some purely ostensible basis, your argument is that Plato's Apology was not an apology in any positive sense, and that this was literally "the point" (hence title) of a particularly one dimensional ironic statement made by the pen of Plato. Is that pretty much it?

I would begin by saying if what you are arguing is an interpretation of the text it would be your burden to actually reference the text. If you want to say that for literal reasons, in Plato, or Socrates was "directly mocking", or just making an indictment of any singular "Athenian way of thinking", by all means go ahead and quote something from that said text. Maybe you can verge on making a philosophical rather than literal and rote point too? I am curious, although the contents of this yet unspoken of text will not strike me off gaurd.

Incidentally Frockx, I am not at all sure what you think, but personally I think it's possible to stand for things in principle. Whether its an argument, or sometimes what you don't stand for, like insinuations, which if you met and falsified by the standards it would put you on a certain level - I think that this possibility is significant about human life, but is not always found as of course in an overt way.

Anyway I have actually read the text a good a few times in my life, but I was arguing mostly from a soco cultural context. Respectively, I think citing and referencing a philosophocal text is the way to argue for its particular relavence to a discussion. Thumping the book on the table doesn't make any implied point. I mean by that, it is one thing to appeal a close reading and another to go biblical. What is your "evidence" but a bunch of hedged, and as yet to be made insinuated "arguments", that you won't be able to make, based on your literalist position?

As for my suggestion that Socrates played the fool, I suggested the possibility of a more elaborate argument. Why consider a general context of the Greek world? Well, in principle, first, I don't believe anything, and especially literary irony, can be read on one level, or in one way.

I would say it bears certain significance that Socrates' trial is a contingent circumstance and event prior to possibly being an explicit and literal "narrative". This context would be opposed to the concept of any idealized voice, found somewhere between the interpretation of Socrates' so called "daemon" or inner voice, and the historical figure of Socrates and his actual appeals, and the pen of Plato. It is a certain possibly to just look away from all that discussion too.

Yeah, Socrates finally gets the convenient "chance" to make a long speech about himself where everybody listens, and Plato gets a "chance" to attend the trial, and write a dialogue about this which all philosophers would have the "chance" to read. Clearly beginning with the first, these chances are not oppurtune. Is being on trial the basis for making uninterrupted statements, or "points" ideal? I would say not. Maybe from one isolated place you could say it is; I think that is a bit naive though.

The polis scene of Athens like any politic, was presumably many dimensioned. Clearly there was no singular "Athenian way of thinking" that the Socrates the great philosopher stood up against. More likely, Socrates could not really make an indictment of the force that really put him on the stand, so he lambasted the polis in whatever coherence he could for letting this corruption happen. This was a defensive position.

But Socrates' points could likely be as trivial or at most witty and sophisticated to the polis, much as the political mechanism that put him up there is as trivial to Socrates himself. It is not an ideal and one dimensional dialogue. Hence as I said I think it's quite possible Socrates just stepped in some proverbial political shit, and decided for whatever reason to make a big, dialectically principled deal about it. He made a "point", that philosophers like Plato have carried down, and interpreted and reinterpreted. Maybe with your interest in Plato, you are used to reading in between the lines, but that doesn't mean anything necessarily. It could just a melodrama in these terms.

Aside from speculating about Socrates himself, this opposition is the conveniently idealized projection of narcissistic philosophers, who think they are above common ways of thinking, at least insofar as the prospect of dialogue is being projected as an "ideal" or just some convenient point. You say it was an indictment of a singular "Athenian way of thinking". 

Anyway I was indeed largely appealing to life and experience, as well as particularly taking into consideration context in which the text was written by Plato. Anyone who has touched on Greek art and drama, or has seen the friezes or statues of Parthenon depicting the birth of Athena as the literal brainchild of Zeus, will know that the Greeks were something of intellectual and cultural depth, that is difficult to comprehend. In my opinion they can hardly can be represented (for instance especially as having any view one way or another on a singular divinity).

It was argued by Nietzsche that Socrates was merely pseudo-greek, the obnoxious voice of moralism, (you see the way he discusses the gods in republic for instance) in the decadent ends of Greek civilization which he is supposed today to have stood for. I am not saying this critique is definitive, but I would agree in a general way that sometimes its possible to value philosophical dialectic, rationality or narcissistic point making a little too much...Or just in naivety which I would reserve my point to.

So I am not the only one who finds it interesting and open to question that periods of western philosophical enlightenment often come entwine and entangled with democratic political movements. A philosophical dialectic is often at the heart of these democracies or any political movements, in a way which is not wholly reconciled, - and philosophy likewise is given its forum through certain "expedient" forces of group thinking and democratic liberty, that may not exactly be propping up reason, as they claim to. It's complex. Nobody has well disentangled or reconciled the polis from philosophy in that time, or in our modern enlightenment eithrr. The opposition of philosopher and polis, is inherently many dimensioned.

So Frockx, in this expansion of the point (which I realize no expansion of our dialogue has exactly warranted) I would stand by an argument to context, first of all, just "because" I think I am free to do that, and it is sufficient. Whether to the actual meaning of the word apologia, as a defense, which is the title of the text you refer to, or to what I appealed to as context Athens, life, or a history of events (that this is no singular or common way of thinking) I don't believe I need to directly defer to any one single dimensional (or at least as you put it prima facie and literal) representation of these affairs.

I agree there are not many sources to appeal to to understand Socrates' trial, however there is sufficient issue to begin with, to find skepticism to literalism in representation, or in a positive sense, to perhaps inspire a deeper reading of what may be taken too literally, as such.

My arguments in respect to any literalism, will in principle be contextual, to knock things down off the pedestal a bit, which can even be the stand of a trial. In short, Socrates' trial was a contingent circumstance that was a defense, and arguably not a pedestal for philosophers or academics. I think that this all I have to say, and you should be able to fill in the rest.

Edited by Kurt (06/18/15 11:21 AM)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: xFrockx [Re: Kurt]
    #21809909 - 06/15/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

well, thats all very interesting stuff, but i really wish you guys hadn't chased the schizo guy off


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: xFrockx [Re: Kurt]
    #21811417 - 06/15/15 04:35 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

So you think quoting the work is the way to debate it? Then by all means, do so, rather than giving me a wall of text where you make roundabout arguments supporting your right to talk out of your ass.

" I suppose you mean, as I infer from your indictment, that I teach them not to acknowledge the gods which the state acknowledges, but some other new divinities or spiritual agencies in their stead. These are the lessons which corrupt the youth, as you say."

Here it is, pretty plainly. Part of Meletus' charge against Socrates was impiety and corruption of the youth. This is what the trial was decided over, whether you think it was "political shit" or not.

Did some educated, powerful people dislike Socrates? Most definitely. Was this the reason for his trial? No.

"... the charge is that they are different gods. Or, do you mean to say that I am an atheist simply, and a teacher of atheism?

I mean the latter - that you are a complete atheist."

Here we are again. Now, keep in mind this was a trial judged by a large group of Athenian people. They were not elites, but citizen volunteers (as many as 500), drawn at random. So regardless of what you believe, Socrates was tried on those two charges, even if his accusers had motives behind making those charges.

And yes, Socrates' argument with Meletus is a defense against his charges, however, as I said, his apology, or defense, takes on a very different character when he begins addressing his jury, especially after he is convicted and sentenced to death.

"And now, O men who have condemned me, I would fain prophesy to you; for I am about to die, and that is the hour in which men are gifted with prophetic power. And I prophesy to you who are my murderers, that immediately after my death punishment far heavier than you have inflicted on me will surely await you. Me you have killed because you wanted to escape the accuser, and not to give an account of your lives. But that will not be as you suppose: far otherwise. For I say that there will be more accusers of you than there are now; accusers whom hitherto I have restrained: and as they are younger they will be more severe with you, and you will be more offended at them. For if you think that by killing men you can avoid the accuser censuring your lives, you are mistaken; that is not a way of escape which is either possible or honorable; the easiest and noblest way is not to be crushing others, but to be improving yourselves. This is the prophecy which I utter before my departure, to the judges who have condemned me."


In a way, he does provide a defense, but without denying anything. Rather than attacking the observations of the prosecution, he attempts to paint them in a different light for the jury.

Men of Athens, do not interrupt, but hear me; there was an agreement between us that you should hear me out. And I think that what I am going to say will do you good: for I have something more to say, at which you may be inclined to cry out; but I beg that you will not do this. I would have you know that, if you kill such a one as I am, you will injure yourselves more than you will injure me. Meletus and Anytus will not injure me: they cannot; for it is not in the nature of things that a bad man should injure a better than himself. I do not deny that he may, perhaps, kill him, or drive him into exile, or deprive him of civil rights; and he may imagine, and others may imagine, that he is doing him a great injury: but in that I do not agree with him; for the evil of doing as Anytus is doing - of unjustly taking away another man's life - is greater far. And now, Athenians, I am not going to argue for my own sake, as you may think, but for yours, that you may not sin against the God, or lightly reject his boon by condemning me. For if you kill me you will not easily find another like me, who, if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am a sort of gadfly, given to the state by the God; and the state is like a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions owing to his very size, and requires to be stirred into life. I am that gadfly which God has given the state and all day long and in all places am always fastening upon you, arousing and persuading and reproaching you. And as you will not easily find another like me, I would advise you to spare me. I dare say that you may feel irritated at being suddenly awakened when you are caught napping; and you may think that if you were to strike me dead, as Anytus advises, which you easily might, then you would sleep on for the remainder of your lives, unless God in his care of you gives you another gadfly. And that I am given to you by God is proved by this: - that if I had been like other men, I should not have neglected all my own concerns, or patiently seen the neglect of them during all these years, and have been doing yours, coming to you individually, like a father or elder brother, exhorting you to regard virtue; this I say, would not be like human nature. And had I gained anything, or if my exhortations had been paid, there would have been some sense in that: but now, as you will perceive, not even the impudence of my accusers dares to say that I have ever exacted or sought pay of anyone; they have no witness of that. And I have a witness of the truth of what I say; my poverty is a sufficient witness.


This would be in line with what Apologia is. The irony I saw primarily rests on the title being Apology. So yes, perhaps my claim of irony was unfounded, but I think I have adequately shown that your claim that Socrates' trial was not about impiety was as well.

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Offlinetobaccotaster
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Re: xFrockx [Re: xFrockx]
    #21815777 - 06/16/15 05:51 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

my poverty is a sufficient witness.

Beggars are poor. I have extracted from prophecy, by original poet's intent or my creativity, a beggar test with royalty:

Altruistic, Jewish, rank status announced in some way as above that of the aggressors. First on royal status if Soc Ra tes' name is Ra, post death astral travel exists, and he was executed uninterrogated telepathically.

Killed for recruiting for the sun, invaded first if the royals responsible since Ra achieved Nirvana do the eye for an eye.

Revelation discusses 3 beggars in sackcloth. So C Ra tes - So see Ra test. So see Ra beggar test.

666 could be the last window on culp at trial: they have until hemlock (until him locked) to rescue in excess of the murder attempted by their decision to participate in a blood pool... Also to by cleverness defeat the lock.

If they succeed, heaven, if they fail, torture culp &/or boredom confined &/or capital punishment. According to
the cold impersonal.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: xFrockx [Re: tobaccotaster]
    #21816080 - 06/16/15 06:59 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

You know what man, I changed my mind. You are absolutely right. Have you ever thought about writing a book?

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Offlinetobaccotaster
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Re: xFrockx [Re: xFrockx]
    #21816201 - 06/16/15 07:30 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I appreciate the compliment and ponder all insults patiently on the way to self perfection.

The Book idea? One original fiction, Eschillion Key...

Any digression from thread topic, I can be private messaged.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: xFrockx [Re: xFrockx]
    #21816949 - 06/16/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
You know what man, I changed my mind. You are absolutely right. Have you ever thought about writing a book?




:heytherebadboy:


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Offlinetobaccotaster
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Re: xFrockx [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21831993 - 06/20/15 10:57 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Zeus technically could have lost any/all hearts of the elites if they got instinctively angry at the real him for one instant because their rage cuts into their attachment. Even if 100% in love w/ him.

If the % that see thru it all get into heaven, 0% schism because he was silent and subtle enough to be thoroughly prepared... And to have them.

They could get made if they have time or have to quit animal addiction.

They have until "the Last Day," and because the angels wait, rescuing him from themselves induces the Buddha to transcend the planet.

Minimizes rational selfish MO. The beggar test so all hatred focused at the Ku. Like an opportunity to project Ku test to stabilize Zeus first mil.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: xFrockx [Re: tobaccotaster]
    #21832049 - 06/20/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)



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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: xFrockx [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21848533 - 06/24/15 12:04 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Mystical ramblings which almost make sense.

Well, almost.


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Light up the darkness.

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