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InvisibleBuck513

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21800439 - 06/13/15 01:26 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fearnoevil said:
Newbie2shoes, I've been in this game for several years buckaroo, had more grows than I can count.  Don't think that simply because someone is new to THIS forum that it means they're a noob, THAT would be a mistake, lol, but typical nonetheless ;?D



  :underage:


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Buck513]
    #21800474 - 06/13/15 01:45 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah. You may not be new, but why are you throwing wet verm into the oven? It doesn't sterilize like a pc does. It seems silly to me. Verm doesn't have endospores either. It's grains that have them and they need to get pressure cooked for them. It's the 15 psi pressure and temperature that kills bacterial endos.

You're just kinda wasting power. Verm doesn't need anything. Once in fruiting it's all dirty af anyways. Bacteria is forever present during fruiting so it wouldn't even be a problem in the first place.

If you got contaminations, it's probably something else because healthy mycelium will easily fight it off and verm is pretty contamination resistant.


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Edited by Mad Season (06/13/15 01:52 AM)

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Offlinefearnoevil
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Mad Season]
    #21800797 - 06/13/15 04:59 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, I should have said pasteurized in an oven, and also right about the endospores. However, after 325f. for 2 hours there are no fungal spores or viruses that will survive. and most bacteria will be destroyed (except those that are known to produce endospores, which are generally limited to Gram-positive bacteria to my knowledge).

The rational for this is that it ADDS a protective layer against infective agents like cobweb and trich and all the myriad other fungal contams, provided they're not already present in your sub at the time it is cased.  LATER after you begin spraying and fanning, yes contams can be introduced but the vermiculite, being devoid of nutrients, again doesn't provide a favorable environment.

This is especially helpful for less-experienced growers as it goes a long way in making up for various misteps, like inadequate cleaning of their grow environs or spawning partially colonized jars.  Uncolonized grains are a magnet for contams, and pasteurized verm helps protect it long enough that hopefully the myc will get to it before the baddies do. I've seen growers who had constant problems with cobweb then resolve this issue by following this process, and the addition of small amounts of H2o2 mixed into the verm prior to casing can also have a similar effect from my XP.

But your argument that store-bought vermiculite is somehow sterile and completely free from contams is rather a strange belief, imho, and one that I don't think would be borne out by testing on agar.  Add some wet verm to a plate and see what grows, lol.

Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 05:12 AM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21801155 - 06/13/15 08:35 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't say that it's mold free. I said colonized mycelium will be strong enough to fight off contamination. Once fully colonized, it doesn't need to be sterile anymore. It's not like a fruiting chamber is free of mold. They get covered in millions of mold spores the moment they go in the chamber.

Tl;dr it's not the dirty verm that causes contamination on a fully colonized substrate. It's the fact your substrate was too weak to hold its own against the contaminations.

That's why I said it's probably something else. Because a truly healthy substrate wouldn't have any problems in the first place.


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Edited by Mad Season (06/13/15 08:39 AM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Mad Season]
    #21801281 - 06/13/15 09:17 AM (9 years, 7 months ago)

:whathesaid: Fungi cannot germinate on verm. Fully colonized substrates are contam resistant. I someone wants to sterilize the verm it won't hurt a thing. But I have shaken it on straight from the bag lots of times.

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Invisible2shoes
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21803604 - 06/13/15 07:29 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fearnoevil said:
Newbie2shoes, I've been in this game for several years buckaroo, had more grows than I can count.  Don't think that simply because someone is new to THIS forum that it means they're a noob, THAT would be a mistake, lol, but typical nonetheless ;?D




Easy killer!!! No need to get all hostile it was just a question.

I agree that post count is not a good gauge of experience.

:derail:

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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21803678 - 06/13/15 08:04 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

You all can say what you want but I do my CVG in the oven.  :shrug:

I don't really treat the verm to be used for casing though.  It's never mattered much.


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Offlinefearnoevil
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21808053 - 06/14/15 08:38 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Oh, huh, then I must have been mistaken when I saw cobweb and trich growing on a verm casings....

And I suppose every single sub you've produced is perfect every time?  Everyone makes a mistake or two now ant then, and AGAIN, a lot of this advice is to help the less experienced have some success.  My advice is often to case immediately after spawning, especially if they're having problems, if DOES HELP, imho, and while there's certainly going to be contams present after you open her up to mist and fan, it doesn't mean that throwing dirty verm in there isn't going to add something that wasn't there to begin with.

Also, I don't know how you can tell that your subs are always 100% colonized - more than a few times I'v found uncolonized spots in a sub, and yes if the layer above it is solidly colonized it's not usually a factor. But how many times have you moved a sub, especially larger ones, and seen a crack form?  I've had em, especially when I'm growing monster trays, and that's an open door for fungus and bacteria if there's even a tiny uncolonized spot under the surface, so with the bigguns I've just case immediately after mixing in the spawn.  But everyone's free to take another path, lol, just adding my 2.5 cents (adjusted for inflation ;?).

Finally, I don't get why a lot of people think that just because vermiculite is devoid of nutes and therefore unattractive to a wide range of contams, that those little fuckers can't get into the product during the NUMEROUS steps in the processing, cleaning, bagging and shipping process.  One of my biggest fears is that while it's sitting in the garden supply store (which, imo, are just filled with all kinds of spores) it's going to pick up a ton of shit, even if just on the outside of the bag, and you're bringing that stuff into your house (which is why I leave it out in the shed, along with everything else I buy there, and only bring in what I need).

But that is just an opinion and I suppose I should go ahead and do a test to prove my theory, but I'm inherently lazy, lol, and generally have more important stuff on the burner, but maybe some day ;?D

Hey Newbie2Shoes, sorry to come off like a dick, been on edge a bit lately, need to change my meds I'm thinking, lol.

Edited by fearnoevil (06/14/15 08:58 PM)

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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808066 - 06/14/15 08:41 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe that is an issue but all most of us have to go off of is experience.  I just can't think of many things I can do to verm that leave it dry and aren't nearly as bad as doing nothing to it.  I guess I could try to throw my dry verm in a bag in the oven but that wouldn't conduct heat well at all, and just baking it on a tray would be nasty as fuck.

Could probably sterilize in jars but all that effort and I've never noticed a difference from just dumping it straight out of the bag, so, you see the issue?

Once I have a problem with it I'll change my tune and figure something out, probably just PC a jar full of it for half an hour or whatever.

Spores can have landed on it but it won't contain endospores like grains do.


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Invisible2shoes
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808093 - 06/14/15 08:49 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Its all gravy mayne.. check out the post your cultivation thread. Some good mush porn and advice.

I started casing a little after I put into fruiting. I'm no expert but I don't dunk for the first flush and verm is always fresh out of the bag.

My yields don't break any scales but far more than I can eat and give away.

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Offlinefearnoevil
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21808130 - 06/14/15 08:57 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

So Inocuole, are you saying you don't wet your verm to field capacity first?  I've never tried that, usually I find that adding the moisture first insures it's evenly wetted/properly, and of course the other reasons mentioned.  But hey, different strokes for different folks, it's all good as long as it produces mushies:thumbup:

Thanks N2S, will do ;?D

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808165 - 06/14/15 09:05 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I have heat treated verm and shaken it on straight from the bag. If your having shitty colonization or contams before first flush then work on getting clean spawn. It will serve you far better in the long run. The thing to not do is come on here spewing vitrol and babbling like some idiot. That helps no one :shrug:

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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808183 - 06/14/15 09:10 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I've tried it a few ways, but yeah at one point I did just moisten the surface of the substrate before I just applied dry verm to it, then misted it real good, it worked a charm.

The other times I've cased I usually just used leftover deposits of verm with little bits of coir that stick to the bottom of the bucket when you bucket tek, which I guess is pretty field capacity, but it was also sitting there for a few days.

I really don't case much so MY personal experience is actually not indicative of much, I can only draw a few parallels with other people's experience and that SORT OF tells me which things are common and which are flukes.  :shrug:


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Invisible2shoes
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Inocuole]
    #21808211 - 06/14/15 09:15 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Like a dunk and roll for cakes I literally rolled the cake in the bag the verm comes in no issues so why change it?

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Inocuole]
    #21808214 - 06/14/15 09:16 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Well if anyone remembers my bottle grows I would simply just toss some dry verm on em, shake it to get it even, them mist to get it moist. Not once did any contam from the verm.



Now if you keep slices of moldy bread and cheese in your bag of verm, you should probably sterilize that shit. But if that's the case you should clean your house while you're at it.

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Invisible2shoes
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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21808232 - 06/14/15 09:19 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Pasty your plate and bottle teks are on point. I hope to be a boss like you one day.

:youthemandawg:  :raisemyglass:

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21808236 - 06/14/15 09:20 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

I don't have 100% success, but I don't blame it on my casing. I always blame it on my procedure. If I get clean spawn, it's always 100% after that point. A casing doesn't make or break it. If you had trich or cobweb germinate, it was on the surface of the mycelium before laying the casing and the mycelium was too weak to stop it from germinating and colonize over it, probably from dirty, weak ass spawn.

This is my 3rd time telling you that your mycelium being clean is a lot more important than a casings cleanliness. It's not bad practice, but I highly, HIGHLY doubt that dirty verm is what makes or breaks your grow, since LOTS of us don't sterilize/pasteurize verm with 100% success, IF it was clean aggressive spawn.

Also when bits are still uncolonized, it's not colonized.. you can tell it's 100% colonized when there's no bits that are uncolonized :wink:


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Edited by Mad Season (06/14/15 09:29 PM)

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: 2shoes]
    #21808300 - 06/14/15 09:39 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

newbie2shoes said:
Pasty your plate and bottle teks are on point. I hope to be a boss like you one day.

:youthemandawg:  :raisemyglass:




Thanks man but the bottles were Mudafukas tek, I just really liked it :wink:

Also everyone can reach a high level of grow, its not hard. Just have to get a few key points straight and it becomes easy. Most important is to lay blame where it belongs. Most of the time its the spawn.  Yet I see people blaming casing or bulk prep. Sure those things can be a vector but, figure the spawn out first,  success follows clean spawn.

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Re: Does it need to be fully colonized to case? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21808454 - 06/14/15 10:03 PM (9 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
success follows clean spawn.




Heh, cron's sig.  "It doesn't matter what I think of you.  All that matters is clean spawn"


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