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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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personal responsibility
    #21805502 - 06/14/15 09:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The notion of personal responsibility is a tricky one.  For example, when someone commits a crime, there are various ways to look at it.  A person who previous to the act of committing a crime knew exactly what he was going to do, planned it out and executed it -- knowing the whole time, unequivocally, that it was wrong -- can he be said to have some objective measure of personal responsibility for such an act?  Someone who committed a crime reactively, or based upon emotion or instinct, makes the waters a little cloudier.  Perhaps ordinarily, they wouldn't do such a thing.  It was in the heat of the moment.  In our society, you're guilty either way, but perhaps this person would deserve extra forgiveness.  Then there is the case in which a person commits a crime, intentionally, but didn't know or understand that it was wrong or illegal.  This is the trickiest of all because the whole essence of the moral and legal deterrent was nonexistent.  Once again, you're guilty either way, but perhaps stupidity has saved you from a graver fate.

What is your stance on the dynamics of responsibility?  Do you feel we live in a billiard-ball universe, and everything is fated to happen -- meaning responsibility doesn't exist?  Or do you feel we are free to change, or at least influence, our minds enough to prevent criminal behavior, for example.  Do you feel knowing what one is doing, and doing it anyway, gives validity to the notion of responsibility?  Should we always forgive?  Just a few questions to throw out there.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinerudeboi
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21805569 - 06/14/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

If one begins to draw a distinction at the mind set of an individual prior to the crime you open up a can of worms. Example, the guy who kills his girlfriend and has to undergo psychiatric treatment because he makes a claim that it was "temporary insanity". Well of course you were temporarily insane, a normal guy wouldn't kill someone.

Our culture has begun to lead towards moving the blame to someone else rather than accept responsibility for their own actions.

Say you steal food from a grocery store to feed your family. The argument is that your family was hungry and needed food. The reverse would be, why didn't you get a job. Look for support or ask for help prior to that point.

Rules and laws are in place to create a fractional order. It is what makes people feel safe and helps keeps the society as we know it to continue to grow. The minute that something begins to encroach on those values chaos will be sure to follow. A good example would be Greece and other EU countries. No security for young educated people (jobs, money) far left wing and right wing groups begin to appear "fighting for the good of the people".


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InvisibleNightShades


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 94
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21805685 - 06/14/15 10:42 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I wish American judicial was more moderate.
Shorter prison times and less death penalty.
I would think that would make crime less prominent in the long run.
I don't think crime is related to responsibility though.
It's more just a part of the American way.
Can't speak for other countries though.


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Break free from your chains, Life works in mysterious ways


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Invisiblecez
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21806651 - 06/14/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
What is your stance on the dynamics of responsibility?  Do you feel we live in a billiard-ball universe, and everything is fated to happen -- meaning responsibility doesn't exist?  Or do you feel we are free to change, or at least influence, our minds enough to prevent criminal behavior, for example.  Do you feel knowing what one is doing, and doing it anyway, gives validity to the notion of responsibility?  Should we always forgive?  Just a few questions to throw out there.




I lean with my inner hippy regarding personal responsibility and think it to be an illusion we inherently are given.  Everything happens to us and all we can do is observe.  I think a reaction to an event is given to us much prior to the event yielding the reaction, therefore nothing is spontaneous and everything is scripted. 

I have been working as a teletmarketer the past 5 weeks.  It's a bullshit job and I was taught to lie and say we have anything just to get someone's credit card. It worked for some people in the group I was hired with, but it didn't work for me.  I had a hard time being a pushy salesman and even harder time lying about what I'm selling.  I thought about quitting everyday.  200+ phone calls a day for $9.37 an hour after taxes seemed not worth it to me for 45 hours of my life a week. 

Last Sunday I debated if I was gonna go into work or just quit and look for something new.  I decided I'm gonna go in.  I went through my work week and on Thursday they called me in to the HR office and told me it was my last day.  I wasn't producing to the level they expected.  :shrug:

I felt quite the shock when this was told to me although I shouldn't have been surprised.  Of my 6 sales, 4 went bad with customers giving fraudulent credit cards, so really I only had 2 sales in 5 weeks, and I didn't possess a great attitude for the job and was constantly looking for other jobs.  I wasn't invested in the company and I imagine it was apparent to them. 

To reflect on this instance, I knew when I started this job it wasn't gonna last.  I was moreso having this job as a bridge to another job.  Now I'm unemployed and forced to find that other job.  I can guilt-trip myself and say "I shoulda been more positive at the job or I shoulda done xy and z differently" but that's not gonna do me any good.  I knew I didn't want to be a fucking teletmarketer, I just figured I would be the one to say "I'm done" instead of the other way around. 

I hold no grudge towards them or myself.  It wasn't for me and I wasn't for them.  I think denying personal responsibility allows forgiveness to be rather easy.  I'm not upset with myself for getting fired, but I do have a bit anxiety now that I need to find a new job, and that's not necessarily a bad thing for it's prompting me to get on it, but given my current world-view me getting fired was the cue for my next move.  I know I'm fine and I'll always be fine because this is all play.  What accountability can there be for a life that doesn't mean anything?  I think it's an essential part of society and I hold myself accountable for everything I do, but I understand the folly with it all. 

I don't think we can hold any individual accountable for their actions because their actions are given to them by the conditions that raised them.  For society's sake, we have to hold people accountable but when we step away from society and try to judge someone's actions, I think it can be rather easy to forgive them, and ultimately that's the goal imo;  to live a life rich in forgiveness because we all are screwups at the end of the day.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21806682 - 06/14/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

What is your stance on the dynamics of responsibility?  Do you feel we live in a billiard-ball universe, and everything is fated to happen -- meaning responsibility doesn't exist?  Or do you feel we are free to change, or at least influence, our minds enough to prevent criminal behavior, for example.  Do you feel knowing what one is doing, and doing it anyway, gives validity to the notion of responsibility?  Should we always forgive?  Just a few questions to throw out there.





I think there is sufficient feedback and plasticity in most humans to bring about some degree of intentional behavioural change.

Ideally we would always forgive. I want my system of law to segregate people from larger society based on their potential for harm, predicated on some trend of harm already committed. I suppose this is roughly what happens already in some places, but I find the idea of justice in doling out punishments unfortunate. It often plays out as the vengeance of the many, rather than a compassionate, pragmatic move.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: cez]
    #21806725 - 06/14/15 02:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I am reminded, really by both of the last two posts, of a quote by Eugene V. Debs that Kurt Vonnegut once cited:

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind then that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; and while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #21810358 - 06/15/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

As someone who has spent a lot of time working with kids and their parents, I would say that people's actions are largely down to the experiences they have had in their lives. When you look at a person's upbringing, for example, it's so easy to see how they have turned out they way they did, and why they made certain choices.

One particular example that springs to mind is of a boy who has been sexually abused as a youngster. I have known of several cases over the years, and more often than not, the kid goes on to become at risk of becoming an abuser themselves as they get older. If they hadn't been abused then chances are that would not have been the case.

I think it's often a question of conscious vs subconscious. We all have the ability to make conscious choices, to change, to take a different path, no matter our past. But the problem is that most people are not very conscious. People are ruled by subconscious imprints and tendencies which they have been slowly accumulating over the course of their entire lives, depending on the experiences they have had. So many of the thoughts we think are a result of these imprints, from judgments we make to all the desires we have. These patterns dominate a person's life until such a time as they can be made conscious, and a different route taken instead. And that is a lot easier said than done.

It's easy to judge others and think that we are better than them. But the question I often ask myself is "If I had had the same experiences as this person, would I behave any differently to them?" And the answer is pretty much always no, I wouldn't. But that's not to say we have no power, because I believe we do. But to try to become conscious when the subconscious is constantly trying to pull you under, well, I don't blame anyone who can't manage it.


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Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: PocketLady]
    #21810445 - 06/15/15 11:56 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent post, PocketLady!  :thumbup:


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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21812174 - 06/15/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I think there are different levels of personal responsibility for different situations.  I think this applies to mindsets while committing a crime.


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InvisibleNightShades


Registered: 03/30/15
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: Hippocampus]
    #21812904 - 06/15/15 11:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

^^  ^^
True statement


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21818313 - 06/17/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting topic! I think that the answer people have to your query is largely a matter of what they believe with regards to free will (as we discussed in a thread not too long ago). I don't believe that free will exists, but I don't think that this means what you think it means, and I will respond to your questions one at a time explaining why:

Quote:

Do you feel we live in a billiard-ball universe, and everything is fated to happen -- meaning responsibility doesn't exist?




Yes I do, but I don't think that means responsibility doesn't exist. It really depends what you mean by 'responsibility'. If I decide that I am going to kill someone for my own amusement, and plan for weeks and months to do so, and execute my plan exactly as I intended, then my action is an accurate representation of the sort of person that I am, and the sort of person that I am is a good indication of what I am likely to do in the future, which should be the main consideration when evaluating someone's crimes. Am I responsible for what I did in this circumstance? Yes (depending on what you mean by the term). Remember that responsibility is just a word.

Quote:

Or do you feel we are free to change, or at least influence, our minds enough to prevent criminal behavior, for example.  Do you feel knowing what one is doing, and doing it anyway, gives validity to the notion of responsibility?




We are not 'free' to change, or influence our minds, we are our minds. People change all the time, it is definitely possible; some good people turn bad and some bad people turn good, systems can be put into place that make it easier to make good moral decisions and systems can be put into place that make it easier to make bad moral decisions. For example, compare the murder rates in different countries. The rate of murder, per population, in Iraq is 26 times that of Japan. The people of Iraq are extremely genetically similar to the people of Japan, as are they extremely similar genetically to everyone in the world, so the difference in rates of murder must be a result of the types of lives that people in Iraq live. Culture, opportunity, religion, economics; these systems influence the behavior of the citizens, and make it easier, or more difficult to make good or bad decisions accordingly.

We need to protect people, and so bad people need to be kept away from everyone else, but the logic of 'punishing' someone because they 'deserve' it, doesn't make sense. If we could cure people of psychopathy, then we should go right ahead and do it. We should lock some people up to protect society from future crimes they may be likely to commit, and as a deterrent of crimes for everyone else. What we do with people who break the law should depend, however, on the likelihood that they will continue committing crimes; if a crime can be shown to be a complete random accident that could have been committed by anyone, and in which the criminal is not likely to re-commit in the future, then a punishment is not necessary.

The following thought experiments and commentary on them are very useful for your questions:


Quote:

Consider the following examples of human violence:
A four-year-old boy was playing with his father’s gun and killed a young woman. The gun had been kept loaded and unsecured in a dresser drawer.
A twelve-year-old boy, who had been the victim of continuous physical and emotional abuse, took his father’s gun and intentionally shot and killed a young woman because she was teasing him.
A twenty-five-year-old man, who had been the victim of continuous abuse as a child, intentionally shot and killed his girlfriend because she left him for another man.
A twenty-five-year-old man, who had been raised by wonderful parents and never abused, intentionally shot and killed a young woman he had never met “just for the fun of it.”
A twenty-five-year-old man, who had been raised by wonderful parents and never abused, intentionally shot and killed a young woman he had never met “just for the fun of it.” An MRI of the man’s brain revealed a tumor the size of a golf ball in his medial prefrontal cortex (a region responsible for the control of emotion and behavioral impulses).
…The degree of moral outrage we feel clearly depends on the background conditions described in each case. We suspect that a four-year-old child cannot truly intend to kill someone and that the intentions of a twelve-year-old do not run as deep as those of an adult. In both cases 1 and 2, we know that the brain of the killer has not fully matured and that all the responsibilities of personhood have not yet been conferred. The history of abuse and precipitating cause in example 3 seem to mitigate the man’s guilt: this was a crime of passion committed by a person who had himself suffered at the hands of others. In 4, we have no abuse, and the motive brands the perpetrator a psychopath. In 5, we appear to have the same psychopathic behavior and motive, but a brain tumor somehow changes the moral calculus entirely: given its location, it seems to divest the killer of all responsibility. How can we make sense of these gradations of moral blame when brains and their background influences are, in every case, and to exactly the same degree, the real cause of a woman’s death?
It seems to me that we need not have any illusions about a casual agent living within the human mind to condemn such a mind as unethical, negligent, or even evil, and therefore liable to occasion further harm. What we condemn in another person is the intention to do harm—and thus any condition or circumstance (e.g., accident, mental illness, youth) that makes it unlikely that a person could harbor such an intention would mitigate guilt, without any recourse to notions of free will.



- Sam Harris





Quote:

Should we always forgive?




Again, the answer is dependent on your definition. Should we forgive a tiger for wandering into a neighborhood in India and murdering and eating a young child? It is not entirely out of character for a tiger to do this. It is in the nature of Tigers to act violently quite regularly, as it is in the nature of some serial killers. Did a tiger choose their nature? Did a serial killer choose his? Of course not, the tiger is a product of its genetics and it's environment, as is the serial killer. The serial killer is a product of unlucky genetics, unlucky parenting, unlucky life experiences, unlucky circumstances, or a combination of the above.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: secondorder]
    #21818620 - 06/17/15 11:02 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Very interesting post, secondorder.  I definitely agree that the nature of crime and punishment is not contingent upon whether free will really exists or not.  Even in a wholly deterministic scenario, we can assign meaning to the word "responsibility" that has coherence and usefulness.  The more philosophical aspect is just that -- philosophical, and essentially academic in practical terms.  Nice post.


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OfflineNedly
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Re: personal responsibility [Re: Hippocampus]
    #21828329 - 06/19/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

A-HA! The calculation of differentiations between reality, and the reality we project with the ratio of reciprocity and individuality. Only one's true self can project their self's true intent. Who is it to judge right or wrong? Well it is the result in evolution apparently, because if a single consciousness can agree on the righteousness of a fractions actions then we have no need for projective structures because everything would be as is.


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