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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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They are so commonplace for me anymore that I miss the time when they were novel and exciting. There are still some juicy ones though, now and then.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lessismore]
#21869848 - 06/28/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I already use melatonin for lucid dreams
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
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Hehehe 'documented' :,)
I too have experienced synchronicity numerous times throughout my life, the only difference between us is that I don't create a meaning for the coincidences I experience.
If I thought of someone and they called me soon after, I know it's nothing more than a coincidence and that it doesn't mean I have telepathy. To assume I have telepathy because of a coincidence would be an egregious assumption. Coincidence happen all the time, just because they are unlikely does not mean they hold meaning when they occur.
overall a coincidence like a friend your thinking of calling you may seem unlikely but things like that are actually incredibly common. I thought of a friend this morning and they texted me, theres nothing incredible about that.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
#21870458 - 06/28/15 08:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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We clearly do not live in the same dimensions of mind, or you simply can't see the forest for the trees. It is not a matter of creating meaning, it is experiencing the explicitly meaningful connections that simultaneity highlights out of the stream of consciousness. Sometimes, the layers of coincidence are multiple and utterly mind-blowing. Your attempt to reduce Synchronicity to mere banality is your own sad shortcoming. I hope you are shown otherwise in the near future because I am suggesting the dimension of the miraculous, without which life remains meaningless and thence pointless. And for those suffering such existential travail, meaninglessness portends joylessness and its tragic corollaries.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: They are so commonplace for me anymore that I miss the time when they were novel and exciting. There are still some juicy ones though, now and then. 
I could agree with you wholeheartedly except that while the thrill is often missing, it's nutritional value to my soul is still very much present and accounted for. Synchronicities have always been my divine manna, and my value for them has in the past put me at loggerheads with my analysts and other Jungians in that I valued them more than my dreams. I pity those who can neither grasp the events when they occur, or dismiss them as meaningLESS coincidences attributed to be mere statistical probability. This was the Merovingian's plight in The Matrix Reloaded: "You see there is only one constant. One universal. It is the only real truth: Causality. Action, reaction. Cause and effect." This is as relative a truth as Newton's laws, relativized by Einstein's principles. Effective and efficient within its own sphere, cause-effect is linear. The transcendental possibilities of such a thing as 'Backward Causation' or Precognition remains incomprehensible to Merovingian in-the-box awareness. 'Acausal' relationships are equally opaque to reductionist thinking.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Don't get me started on causality. Anyway, I'm totally sympathetic to your sentiments. It just saddens me how the mundane (for lack of a better word) is all most people ever come to know.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
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Sometimes coincidences are mind blowing, sometimes they're not.
"I am suggesting the dimension of the miraculous, without which life remains meaningless and thence pointless."
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you but are you trying to say that life without the intervention of miracles is meaningless? Because I have a joyful, fulfilling and personally meaningful life of my own without any influence or belief in the 'miraculous dimension'.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
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"I pity those who can neither grasp the events when they occur, or dismiss them as meaningLESS coincidences attributed to be mere statistical probability."
I don't know why you'd pity someone for a different perspective. I often recognise synchronicity when it occurs and am internally humbled by the experience. Just because I realise the experience is attributed to a statistical probability doesn't mean I am at a loss.
With or without synchronicity I am at peace because I do not take my life for granted and am grateful for being lucky enough to have an chance to live on this planet.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
#21871790 - 06/29/15 02:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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With or without synchronicity I am at peace because I do not take my life for granted and am grateful for being lucky enough to have an chance to live on this planet.
I respect this completely. I pity the absence of the cognitive-affective union of AWE!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
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Lessismore, howfamiliar are you with dimethyltryptamine?
All the things you speak of are great, but when it comes to a skeptic asking "what can you show me?" Your going to need a little more that lucid dreaming or meditation techniques....
I practice meditation, lucid dreaming, holotropic breath work, I work with binaural beats and isochronic tones, ive experimented with mindmachines and dreamachines, and ive practiced most forms of non-entheogenic shamanism....these are all great forms of inner-space exploration, yet none of them can compare to exploration with entheogens. Entheogens can give you access to realms of mind impossible to enter under ordinary conditions. The brain takes in something like 14 billion signals per second, now, all these signals (except smell) first enter the thalamus, the thalamus then filters out the majority of the incoming signals and sends the most important signals to the cortex, its in these cortex regions in which our emotional and intellectual processing of the signals takes place. This lower informational brain (thalamus) and higher processing brain (cortex regions) are connected by 5ht2a + 5ht2c receptors. So when you ingest DMT, psilocin, mescaline or LSD (though LSD is an agonist of many more receptor sites) your agonism of the 5ht2a and 5ht2c receptors causes the thalamus to shut down its filtering, so you go from getting a very small slice of filtered reality, to getting it ALL.....ive never experianced a natural state that could compare to high dose DMT or high dose psilocin.
Mircea Eliade claimed that shamanism using entheogenic plants was decadent, but as Richard Evans schultes and Gordon wasson would prove, the exact opposite was the case, that forms of shamanism in which entheogenic plants were not employed is in a state of decay, and that starving yourself, or stranding yourself in nature, or any of the other ordeals that non-entheogenic shamans use are desperate attempts to recover access to entheogenic States once employed by plants.
To ask me to practice inner-space exploration without entheogenic compounds would be like asking an astronaut to go to the moon without a space-ship.
The fact that if you take serotonin and remove the hydroxy group from position 5 and add 2 methyl groups to the amine nitrogen you have n,n-dimethyltryptamine, which is also an endogenous neurotransmitter should scream out "something signifigant is here!" now, lets take serotonin again, which is 5-hydroxy-tryptamine, lets move the hydroxy group to position 4 and add to methyl groups to the amine nitrogen, and we have psilocin. now, lets use another key neurotransmitter, dopeamine, which is 3,4-dihydroxy-phenethylamine, if we add a methyl group to positions 3 and 4, and then add a methoxy group to position 5 we have mescaline, which is 3,4,5-trimethoxy-phenethylamine.....these are exogenous neurotransmitters!
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with other forms of inner space exploration, I'm just saying these other forms don't have the power that psychedelics do...like mckenna said: nobody ever went into an Ashram with their knees knocking in fear over the tremendous dimension they knew they were about to enter through meditation”
At least for me, NOTHING can even come close to the psychedelic experiance....
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
#21872405 - 06/29/15 08:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: "I pity those who can neither grasp the events when they occur, or dismiss them as meaningLESS coincidences attributed to be mere statistical probability."
I don't know why you'd pity someone for a different perspective. I often recognise synchronicity when it occurs and am internally humbled by the experience. Just because I realise the experience is attributed to a statistical probability doesn't mean I am at a loss.
With or without synchronicity I am at peace because I do not take my life for granted and am grateful for being lucky enough to have an chance to live on this planet.
I don't think he pittys you for having a different perspective, its all the astonishing things that your missing in life....
-E. Borodin
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
#21874104 - 06/29/15 03:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Sometimes coincidences are mind blowing, sometimes they're not.
"I am suggesting the dimension of the miraculous, without which life remains meaningless and thence pointless."
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you but are you trying to say that life without the intervention of miracles is meaningless? Because I have a joyful, fulfilling and personally meaningful life of my own without any influence or belief in the 'miraculous dimension'.
I am not happy unless the Laws of Physics are routinely broken in my favor.
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Quote:
Coincidentiaoppositorum said: Lessismore, howfamiliar are you with dimethyltryptamine?
All the things you speak of are great, but when it comes to a skeptic asking "what can you show me?" Your going to need a little more that lucid dreaming or meditation techniques....
I practice meditation, lucid dreaming, holotropic breath work, I work with binaural beats and isochronic tones, ive experimented with mindmachines and dreamachines, and ive practiced most forms of non-entheogenic shamanism....these are all great forms of inner-space exploration, yet none of them can compare to exploration with entheogens. Entheogens can give you access to realms of mind impossible to enter under ordinary conditions. The brain takes in something like 14 billion signals per second, now, all these signals (except smell) first enter the thalamus, the thalamus then filters out the majority of the incoming signals and sends the most important signals to the cortex, its in these cortex regions in which our emotional and intellectual processing of the signals takes place. This lower informational brain (thalamus) and higher processing brain (cortex regions) are connected by 5ht2a + 5ht2c receptors. So when you ingest DMT, psilocin, mescaline or LSD (though LSD is an agonist of many more receptor sites) your agonism of the 5ht2a and 5ht2c receptors causes the thalamus to shut down its filtering, so you go from getting a very small slice of filtered reality, to getting it ALL.....ive never experianced a natural state that could compare to high dose DMT or high dose psilocin.
Mircea Eliade claimed that shamanism using entheogenic plants was decadent, but as Richard Evans schultes and Gordon wasson would prove, the exact opposite was the case, that forms of shamanism in which entheogenic plants were not employed is in a state of decay, and that starving yourself, or stranding yourself in nature, or any of the other ordeals that non-entheogenic shamans use are desperate attempts to recover access to entheogenic States once employed by plants.
To ask me to practice inner-space exploration without entheogenic compounds would be like asking an astronaut to go to the moon without a space-ship.
The fact that if you take serotonin and remove the hydroxy group from position 5 and add 2 methyl groups to the amine nitrogen you have n,n-dimethyltryptamine, which is also an endogenous neurotransmitter should scream out "something signifigant is here!" now, lets take serotonin again, which is 5-hydroxy-tryptamine, lets move the hydroxy group to position 4 and add to methyl groups to the amine nitrogen, and we have psilocin. now, lets use another key neurotransmitter, dopeamine, which is 3,4-dihydroxy-phenethylamine, if we add a methyl group to positions 3 and 4, and then add a methoxy group to position 5 we have mescaline, which is 3,4,5-trimethoxy-phenethylamine.....these are exogenous neurotransmitters!
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with other forms of inner space exploration, I'm just saying these other forms don't have the power that psychedelics do...like mckenna said: nobody ever went into an Ashram with their knees knocking in fear over the tremendous dimension they knew they were about to enter through meditation”
At least for me, NOTHING can even come close to the psychedelic experiance....
-E. Borodin
Watch out what you say, you have been poisoned by the wanting to 'see fancy stuff' in your mind That is not always a good thing
Meditation can take you equally far, often further, without the downsides
Lucid dreaming can take you further too without the downsides, just because you haven't experienced it yet doesn't mean it is not there
You are artificially raising your vibration with psychedelics it seems, and with that there are some severe precautions that must be met
If you are into shamanism you must know this, it is not without its dangers, you can lose your soul if you do it wrongly - also in lucid dreams, a fractured soul/partial soul loss
If you lose your soul you don't even know, you live as normal, you just don't feel yourself for years
Psychedelics are one of the least safe methods of exploring your inner space, weed is not without risks either (it can also be psychedelic for some, it gets like that for me)
I like lucid dreaming, it feels much more real and I get further with that than tripping, usually less revealing though at a glance, but not afterwards It changes you it seems, brings me energy, optimism, faith in the universe, energy to do things in the world, it changes my actions and thoughts afterwards
That is what I want from a trip, I dont want to trip just to see fancy things, I look what happens after the trip
And with psychedelics and weed that is not always positive, sometimes it is, but not as often as lucid dreaming or meditation
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lessismore]
#21876726 - 06/30/15 06:20 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I respectfully disargree lessismore,
I think ordeal shamanism is dangerous, non-enthoegenic shamanism uses ordeal poisons, or fasting and starvation, or stranding yourself in nature, or self-flagelation, or sweat-lodges and so on....your risking your life in attempt to reach an entheogenic state...
Entheogenic plants are our symbiotes, the fact that all your higher neurotransmitters are variations of these compounds shows their affinity for a higher human brain....look at the mained wolf and the loberia tree, the maimed wolf has parasites in its stomach, the Loberia tree contains alkaloids that kill these parasites, in turn, the trees seeds will not germinate unless they have passed through a mamals digestive system....now you can seperate the symbiotes, and they don't die, they both just must live in extreme discomfort....now look at humans, why are people so miserable? Why do people seem to have this itch they cant scratch? Its because we have been seperated from our entheogenic symbiotes.
Psychedelics are the safest method to reach these States. NOBODY has ever died from mescaline, DMT, psilocin/psilocybin, LSD, or cannabis, these compounds do NOT cause damage to any organ including the brain: As senior LSD researcher Dr. David Nichols, Distinguished Chair of Pharmacology at Purdue University and head of one of the world's top LSD research labs, stated in his 2004 review article on hallucinogens, "There is no evidence that any of the hallucinogens, even the very powerful semisynthetic LSD, causes damage to any human body organ. [...] Hallucinogens do not cause life-threatening changes in cardiovascular, renal, or hepatic function because they have little or no affinity for the biological receptors and targets that mediate vital vegetative functions. (-erowid) You are safer using a classic psychedelic than you are doing breath work, ordeal, or any other forms of non-entheogemic shamanism.
Even in Buddhism, in Tibet the bon-po shamans (who used marijuana and other entheogens) pre-dated the Buddhists, so when Buddhism took hold they eleminated bon, but they incorporated all its lessons, which is why Tibetan Buddhism and the psychedelic experiance seem so similar....
If your going to use meditation,you must master it over a life-time for it to be able to do what its practitioners claim it can, with entheogens anybody cant instantly become siddartha under the bohdi tree.
As mckenna said (and he said it best)
nobody ever went into an Ashram with their knees knocking in fear over the tremendous dimension they knew they were about to enter through meditation”
Ive been practicing entheogenic shamanism for around 10 years, I'm convinced its the only way for me, but like the Buddha said "1000 people 1000 paths"
-E. Borodin
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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The only problem is when drugs make us think we can only get there with a drug, then we're trapped
Then they often makes us think we are better than non-drug users, because we know the whole universe, and man is so illusioned (contempt for mankind)
They may even make us think we are god, or better than god, that we are gods and mankind is a disease (contempt for mankind again)
It's mostly just ego distortion, and that is not a good thing
How can we practice knowing ourselves without out ego taking over, and still live with the heart?
That must be easier to some extent without being away from this reality 12+ hours (LSD), without illusioned thoughts that these molecules usually bring us (they distort our perception)
The way is in the heart, not in the brain
Try asking yourself, who am I? what makes me me ? what do you contribute with to the world that makes you you? have you changed since you were born?
I always look at the way these molecules change me, and if I like the changes afterwards, I do the same with meditation
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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This has nothing to do with "wanting to see fancy stuff", and my experiances are not for recreation.
This is why I asked how familiar you were with DMT, there's really nothing pleasent about a peak DMT experiance.
People who think psychedelic exploration is hedonistic or escapist are out of their minds! As far as spiritual exploration goes, psychedelics are the more difficult path, if you reach a state in meditation where you become uncomfortable all you have to do is open your eyes, with psychedelics your forced to deal with whatever it is. There's nothing "easy" or "fun" about psychedelic shamanism.
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Damn it, we posted at damn near the same time, hold up let Me read and respond to your last post....
-E. Borodin
Edited by Coincidentiaoppositorum (06/30/15 07:32 AM)
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lessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lessismore]
#21876903 - 06/30/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I once in a while use shamanic journeying, when that side calls, drum journeys
With that there is no downside, except there are some risks too, but you are usually much more back to reality afterwards, than if you take LSD i.e.
LSD may have months effects on your mind
Lucid dreaming I use binaural beats and dream journal for sometimes too, works really great, and I like the trip better than LSD, even though I usually liked LSD too
You say shamanic journeying is not possible without poison, but I disagree, I don't use anything, I don't even fast when I do it I lay down with headphones and drum beats
Fasting is a virtue, but you make it dangerous, it is not dangerous to fast for up to a week or so I love fasting all my life, it gets you really close to your soul , especially compared to taking drugs everyday (that's the opposite of fasting in my experience)
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lessismore]
#21876965 - 06/30/15 08:14 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
lessismore said: The only problem is when drugs make us think we can only get there with a drug, then we're trapped
Then they often makes us think we are better than non-drug users, because we know the whole universe, and man is so illusioned (contempt for mankind)
They may even make us think we are god, or better than god, that we are gods and mankind is a disease (contempt for mankind again)
It's mostly just ego distortion, and that is not a good thing
How can we practice knowing ourselves without out ego taking over, and still live with the heart?
That must be easier to some extent without being away from this reality 12+ hours (LSD), without illusioned thoughts that these molecules usually bring us (they distort our perception)
The way is in the heart, not in the brain
Try asking yourself, who am I? what makes me me ? what do you contribute with to the world that makes you you? have you changed since you were born?
I always look at the way these molecules change me, and if I like the changes afterwards, I do the same with meditation
I completley argree with a good deal of what you are saying, except for your stance on entheogens....
I'm anti-drug, but in my mind drugs cause destructive unexamined compulsions, drugs cloud the mind and distort reality, and only provide one with a false veiw of the situation at hand....
Entheogens however are NOT drugs, these are exogenous neurotransmitters provided by our plant symbiotes, they don't cloud consciousness, they don't distort reality, they are not addictive or dangerous. The body/brain is constantly bombarded with signals, all of which (except smell) go to the thalamus to be filtered and then sent to the cortex regions for higher processing, the cortex regions and the thalamus are connected by 5ht2a and 5ht2c receptors, so by careful activation of these receptors the filtering mechanisms of the brain are "shut-down" so instead of getting a small slice of reality, your getting it all, entheogens give you a truer picture of the real world, and they do so in a highly advanced neuro-chemical process....
DMT is my compound of choice for these arguments, simply because in one 15 minute session, a person can be entirley transformed, its like being struck with noetic lightening. Now, DMT is endogenous, so when monks reach these States "naturally" they are likley just triggering an endogenous flush of dimethyltryptamine. The fact that these plants are going so far out of their way to produce these compounds (these compounds are NOT tertiary or waste products either) should tell you something....what use does a plant have for a mamillian neurotransmitter? to ignore and not take advantage of our plant symbiotes is a crime, these plants produce these neurotransmitters for us, to keep us healthy, happy, and connected to the vast array of dimentions of conscious existance that are available to us.
In tribal cultures before you can be considered an adult you must complete a right of passage involving ingestion of an entheogen. This is a bennificial practice, most people when first given DMT will say things like "I didn't know minds could do that" an entire universe is opened up to them that they never even suspected exists, they in turn know more about reality than those who have not ingested the DMT...the majority of modern people neotenized because of their seperation from entheogens, they cant be considered fully mature human beings. In the west we have been seperated from entheogenic rites since eleusis, and the state of our society reflects this.....
Humans are limited by the parameters of their own subjective psychology, this is why they need to go to a shrink to be told something that should be obvious, we cant analyze our self's as is, which is why entheogens are essential.
Try asking yourself "who and what am I?" "What makes me me?" Etc...under the influance of an entheogen.
I never said entheogens were the only way, I said they were the safest, most effective, and most benificial way....I also acknowledged that the same path is not appropriate for every traveler, like the Buddha said 1000 people 1000 paths.
-E. Borodin
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Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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How familiar are you with DMT?
-E. Borodin
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