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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Cujllickduo]
    #21855496 - 06/25/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JustAnotherFreak said:
if you understand the devil and how it works you hold the key



How do you understand the devil and what key do you hold?


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: hTx]
    #21856236 - 06/25/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
..and how do you explain synchronicity?



To create meaning from coincidence.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: hTx]
    #21859798 - 06/26/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
..and how do you explain synchronicity?




Not an explanation, but an apt description from Richard Wilhelm, whose studies among Chinese Taoists led to his translation of the I Ching as well as to a major contributing influence to C.G. Jung's Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle.

Why, this very day, some 3 hours ago, I woke to discover a mishap with my swimming pool. For the first time in 19 years I failed to seat the top of the filter housing properly, so when the pump went on, it sprung a leak causing several inches of water loss while I was still sleeping. Now this is THE driest June I have EVER seen in 32 years in Florida and I've had to add water every day because of evaporation, causing my water bill to go way up. I was pissed when I saw the water loss and put the hose in the pool with a prayer. "Please send me some free rainwater! Even an inch will help." Two minutes later I heard a clap of thunder (I have often had thunder in my I Ching readings btw). In fewer than 5 minutes, for the first time in maybe 3 months, we had a brief but significant downpour - .79 inches in a few minutes time! Believe me, that helped, and more importantly, this is exactly how Synchronicity operates and how answers to prayer (or meditation) manifest. Today's experience came in time for me to share it with you along with this classic description:

http://www.ralphmag.org/BN/why.html


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21861082 - 06/26/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You prayed for rain, by coincidence it occurred. You have an assumed causal link between praying and the rain occurring which is your synchronicity to create a meaning from coincidence.

People pray for everything all the time, millions of people pray for rain every single day all around thebworld, it also rains every single day all around the world, it just happened to be that on this day it rained where you were on a day that you were praying.

Say you prayed at 1:50pm and it rained at 2pm. Wether you prayed at 10am, 3pm, or the day before, it will still have rained at 2pm. It is nothing more than a coincidence that it rained as you prayed, it is nothing more than synchronicity.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineenjoi-more
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Registered: 10/31/13
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Last seen: 30 days, 22 hours
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly] * 1
    #21861745 - 06/26/15 09:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

@sudly

It's apparent you stand behind quite a materialistic point of view. I find you have exaggerated comparisons between the power of consciousness and imagination (ie unicorns). To me this weakens your argument but that is besides the point. I have been though a period of thinking where I insisted on the material world and was overcome with urge to only credit what the scientific method could. After all its a very reasonable approach... However, do you ever feel there is more life than reason? Perhaps emotions and passion play a larger part than they are credited.

How about this thought. That reason is the camera to which the world is viewed. Everything is constructed under the same process. As materialism may view everything under the scientific method. Consider emotions and passions(experiences that are not proven) as the different lenses that the world is viewed with through the camera. With this there becomes much more ways to view the world.

I mean not to call you out individually. It just i found your posts to be rather close-minded especially for a psychedelic forum (I must admit I feel I would be more close-minded to what I cannot physically verify if it was not for psychedelics). Its silly to argue over such matters. Its a state you must experience, only then is it even partially credited. Throughout time wise men from the east have told of transcending "normal being/reason." Materialism seems like a very "normal being/reason" mode of thinking.

Spend some time on the topic mentioned beforehand and then let me know if you truly see no value in them because no physical proof backs up there thinking... or some may say lack of thinking :smirk:


Edited by enjoi-more (06/26/15 10:03 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: enjoi-more]
    #21861857 - 06/26/15 10:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

If something cannot be proven to exist then I will not believe it because I do not conform to faith.

I don't believe there is any intrinsic reason to life.
"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." -Charles Darwin

If you look at what the universe is, it's a hostile, unforgiving expanse of deep cold darkness and danger. It makes me appreciate what I have because I know how lucky I am to be alive.
Emotions and passions are bi-products of neural actions within the brain, as is consciousness.

Experiences that are not proven are opinions.

I simply don't believe in that which has no reason to be believed in. I think you may be too open minded if you are happy to hold onto faith.
I have had what many would call 'spiritual experiences' with psychedelics but I am aware enough of my own emotions to realise that the thoughts I've had were created by me and the drugs I was on, not of supernatural cause.

I see the same value in claims of spiritualism as claims for big foot or leprechauns.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisiblehTx
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Registered: 03/27/13
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21862525 - 06/27/15 02:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Sudly i find your denial of human experience interesting.

Synchronicity isn't giving meaning to a coincidence, it is a meaningful coincidence in its own right.
At times, as with my experiences, an undeniable and often terrifyingly mind-blowing stacking of such "coincidence" that whats in "here" and whats out "there" become ultimately one.
The boundaries between observer-observed dissolve, and one is left in, or perhaps awakens to, a sort of union with ones environment and the normal everyday chaos somehow aligns with ones thoughts and feelings.
Even, interacting with them. Perfectly, in real-time.
When events coincide intelligently, one begins to question if any of this is even real or what real even means.

When perception and abstraction expand to the point where language begins to hold dual meaning, relevant to ones perception and thought, and you wonder if it's been this way all along..

You will know you have experienced true synchronicity.
Jung was very reserved i believe when he wrote about it.
Robert Anton Wilson, however, hints at a much deeper reality behind the phenomena.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: hTx]
    #21862969 - 06/27/15 07:47 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
..and how do you explain synchronicity?




Look up Carl Jung.

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21862974 - 06/27/15 07:49 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)



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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21863008 - 06/27/15 07:57 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
August Kekulé was attempting to understand the structure of the benzene ring, he had a dream of a snake eating its own tail, which resulted in his discovery of the benzene ring.

Rene Descartes while holding siege to Prague in a Hapsburg army had a dream that helped found modern science, as described by Terence mckenna: " I believe it was the 17th of August of that year, which was 1619, the beginning year of the Thirty Years’ War – they made camp at Ulm in Southern Germany. Just as an aside, Ulm was the birthplace of Albert Einstein. That night, Descartes had a dream. In the dream, a radiant angel appeared to him and said, “The conquest of nature is to be achieved through number and measure.” In that moment, Rene Descartes went from being a nobody to being the founder of modern science. Modern science was founded at the direction of an angel and the angel showed how it was. To this day, modern science has made all of its strides through the application of number, mathematical analysis, and measure"

Srinivasa Ramanujan said he was "shown" his complex mathematical formulas in dreams by Hindu gods.




The list goes on and on....

Im fascinated by psychedelic States and States of hallucination such as dreaming. I feel both methods can produce outstanding results to those who are paying attention, and can change the world in unbelievable ways.

There must be some property of mind that we are unaware of at this point, I feel information can be transferred through States of hallucination, but I'm still not sure exactly how this occors....



-E. Borodin




Maybe you're living in an automated simulation, why force the simulation to run faster by inventing stuff from your dreams? (receiving inventions)

Maybe there is an end to this program, and you just helped the program die faster


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21863046 - 06/27/15 08:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Science is great for what it does, which is describe 3 dimentional time and space and laws of the world we live in, but there ARE things that are out-side of what science can describe.

-E. Borodin




Yeah, like imagination and fantasy.




Again, your trying to confirm the reality of existence by stubbing your toes on rocks....

(You may want to look into what I'm referencing to here, ill make it easy:
Refutation of Bishop Berkeley:
After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."

....obviously your Johnson, striking your toes against rocks in an infintile attempt to confirm the reality of the existance which surrounds you....


Trust me, there are things that are VERY real that fall outside of science, science is not a meta-theory...

If you think that three dimentional Newtonian time and space and your immediate perception of it is all that actually exists, than there's no point discussing these things with you, your sphere of consciousness is limited to these most basic perceptions regarding existance....




-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21863143 - 06/27/15 08:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Sudly, I recomend you smoke 200mgs pure DMT in a single hit, while your in the depths of hyperspace, think about science, and how useful it is when your outside of 3 dimentional time and space....

-E. Borodin


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Offlineenjoi-more
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Registered: 10/31/13
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: enjoi-more]
    #21863981 - 06/27/15 11:45 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I do respect your view sudly.

But I fully back up the last two posts by Coincidentiaoppositorum.

Its just a little unfortunate to hear of someone who refuses to even consider the possibility that there is more to life than we know and can explain. I think It has potential to dampen your life experience if you hold on to only what has concrete evidence.

I often read in science of an idea so far ahead of its time that the people pay no mind to it. Perhaps how Darwin and his friend submitted an essay years before he published Origins. His essay was paid no mind, but the book changed the game.

You seem like the type of person who would hear a new crazy idea and discredit it. However perhaps 100 years later that idea is considered commonly understood.

We have come a long way as humans, but we have a much longer way to go. Be open to a infinite range of possibilities.

"My thesis, similarly, is that the very conception of Reality and "the world" is the product of an "objective" viewpoint, one that has its obvious benefits but one that must not be allowed to encompass the whole of human experience. If it is given that all-inclusive domain, then our passions will indeed look like distortions, and our values, all our values- will appear to be so many pretentious vanities tacked on the the indifferent and passive structures of reality" The Passions by Robert C. Solomon

Best of luck


Edited by enjoi-more (06/27/15 12:10 PM)


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: enjoi-more]
    #21864121 - 06/27/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

what if reality could not be understood by rational mind?

i.e. if that mind was limited in structure

How would we then ever know the universe? We'd think we know..


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InvisiblehTx
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Registered: 03/27/13
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21866452 - 06/27/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Sudly, I recomend you smoke 200mgs pure DMT in a single hit, while your in the depths of hyperspace, think about science, and how useful it is when your outside of 3 dimentional time and space....

-E. Borodin



:lol:
"Wow so this was what they were talking about"


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,808
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lessismore]
    #21866455 - 06/27/15 09:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Reply to hTx:
I don’t deny that humans have experiences, I deny that the experiences alone are evidence of supernatural causation.
It is the human that determines whether or not a coincidence is meaningful by applying a personal meaning to a coincidence. A coincidence does not have intrinsic meaning behind it. A meaning is given to a coincidence by the individual that perceives it. A.k.a. people create a meaning for a coincidence.
I think you’re talking about ego dissolution by describing the boundary between observer-observed being dissolved. This when subjectivity is inhibited in the mind usually via meditation or drug use. In this state a user is detached from their ego and has instinctual behaviours and thoughts.
It often can feel like a spiritual experiences but is nothing more than disconnection from subjectivity. The ‘awakened’ feeling is objectivity.

Reply to Coincidentiaoppositorum:
The universe is not as consistent or uniform as we have believed it so be for some time now.
Fields such as quantum mechanics have turned many ideas around again, these such ideas however do not fall outside of science, a great deal about quantum mechanics and the truth behind how reality behaves has been uncovered, there is obviously still more to learn, my point is that placing the idea of spiritualism, mysticism, magic or god in place of what we do not yet know is a hypothesis.
A hypothesis does not yet have sufficient evidence to back up its claims and therefore cannot be called a scientific theory. I do not believe in such claims because they are as of yet not scientific theories that have been backed up by testable or observable evidence.
It’s philosophically nice to discuss the idea of fourth dimensions and god but it is only an hypothesis and should not be taken as though it were a scientific theory because the ideas have not yet qualified to do so.
Hit me up with some DMT and I’ll give you a full trip report.

Reply to enjoi-more:
I consider the possibility for everything, a possibility however is not evidence that something does exists. My aptitude is such that pure rational explanation satisfies me and helps achieve an adequate sense of tranquillity.
Often in science an idea comes along that is ahead of its time. This is because it takes a lot of time to find the evidence necessary to backup any claim made. A crux of science is that it does NOT run on faith alone. It is imperitive to science that any claim must be backed up by evidence if it is to be accepted.
People of Darwin’s time thought the idea of evolution was crazy because they believed in creationist beginnings and evolution challenged what they believed. Over time though, evidence in support of evolution through observations and generational tests backed up the claims of evolution which is why it’s now classified as a theory.  Until congruent, observable and repeatable evidence is produced for a hypothesis it will remain a hypothesis. This is why I do not accept the claims of fourth dimensional beings as it is still a hypothesis.
If an idea does not hold up to testing and has no observable evidence I would refute it until the evidence is produced.
We have come a long way as humans, beginning from eukaryotic bacterial life 3.5 billion years ago. I am open to all possibilities but again that doesn’t mean all possibilities are real.
We have a subjective viewpoints too, which is why objective viewpoints do not encompass the whole of the human experience.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: hTx]
    #21867415 - 06/28/15 07:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Sudly, I recomend you smoke 200mgs pure DMT in a single hit, while your in the depths of hyperspace, think about science, and how useful it is when your outside of 3 dimentional time and space....

-E. Borodin



:lol:
"Wow so this was what they were talking about"




Nah, but this is a sure fire way to give a skepitical  person the  Empirical evidence they seek...


-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lessismore]
    #21867499 - 06/28/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Sudly, if I could do so without going to jail I would gladly give you 200mgs DMT.

-E. Borodin


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21867625 - 06/28/15 08:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Sudly, if I could do so without going to jail I would gladly give you 200mgs DMT.

-E. Borodin




You can, it's called lucid dreaming

www.ld4all.nl
www.dreamviews.com

the mind can do it naturally without a drug

you relax so much that you only got like 1 brainwave and no you got complete control of your brain

I'd say lucid dreams are better than DMT/any psychedelic, because they give you control

you can create with your mind and fly


shamanic journeying is also interesting


there are severe risks to any trance state btw, it is not to be overused
each can be equally dangerous, also lucid dreams, as a bad trip

but lucid dreams/out of body experiences are the best trip I've ever tried, better than a high dose LSD or shrooms, better than sex too

the only difference is that the learning process is a bit different there, it is harder to learn in it, but it can be very fun

but what is there to learn, when you see your natural state, true reality directly? - nothing


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21868439 - 06/28/15 12:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You have an assumed causal link between praying and the rain occurring which is your synchronicity to create a meaning from coincidence.

You do not understand what Synchronicity means. The very choice of words "causal link" proves that you have not grasped Jung's notion of Synchronicty as "an acausal connecting principle." It is the coincidence of inner psychic and outer physical (or psychic) events. I have described one such phenomenon. They occur all the time if one is sufficiently mindful of them. I have been typing on numerous occasions and while I am typing a particular word which only takes a second or two, the TV, radio, or my wife will utter that very word while I am typing it. "Telephone telepathy" is Rupert Sheldrake's expression for thinking of someone and the phone rings, and it is that person. I've experienced this countless times since childhood. I was once in my parents' backyard in NJ talking trash about a cousin and her husband who lived in Ohio. At that moment, the two of them suddenly walked into the back yard. We were not close or in any communication beforehand. I have hundreds of documented examples of Synchronicity. You are attempting to describe an operating principle that you do not understand by simplistic cause-effect mechanisms. If you have not experienced Synchronicity it is because you are unable to [bracket] out cause-effect relationships. You have assuredly not experienced precognition, telepathy, or psychokinesis (a disturbed state of mind effecting electronics, for example). Indeed, you are undoubtedly poo-pooing my suggestion that I have experienced these things because your model of reality doesn't allow for them. But I have, and I am far from alone in these things. On 2 of 6 occasions there was a witness to telepathy - the horrified friends whose thoughts I 'heard' psychically (not physically) and repeated back to them. "Believe it, or not!" :lol:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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