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Offlinelowbrow
Paddy Time!!!!
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Registered: 09/12/08
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lowbrow]
    #21833747 - 06/20/15 08:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
"And I think your an arrogant little prick asshole."
Look man, if you're going to try and tell me you didn't call me an asshole after calling me an asshole, it's evident that you are dishonest and I'd rather not continue to waste my time responding to such behaviours.

"I think you're an idiot", is calling you an idiot and taking responsibility that it's only my view.



No.  I said I THINK your an arrogant little prick asshole.  I didn't say you are.  I just shared my opinion based on your e-behavior.

Back  to the topic at hand...

Quote:

lowbrow said:


But that idea led to the Civil Rights Movement which did change reality. 

In effect, a dream did change reality.






Retort?


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lowbrow]
    #21833918 - 06/20/15 08:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Retort?




How retarded are you? The man impacted reality, not the dream, the dream merely gave him an idea to do so.

That does not show evidence that the dream itself changed reality, it only shows that a dream can be a catalyst for change.
In saying that so can a drawing, a few words, a book or anything that gives anyone an idea. By your logic books can change reality too.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinelowbrow
Paddy Time!!!!
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21834323 - 06/20/15 10:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
How retarded are you?




How close-minded are you?  Ever heard of abstract thought?  If your not capable of it then you'll never understand what I'm talking about.
Quote:

sudly said:
The man impacted reality, not the dream, the dream merely gave him an idea to do so.





But the idea that impacted reality can still be traced back to the dream.  The man was just as much a catalyst for the dream as the dream was for the man.

 
Quote:

sudly said:
That does not show evidence that the dream itself changed reality, it only shows that a dream can be a catalyst for change.




Way to argue for my point of view.  A catalyst for change in reality I assume.  So your saying the dream did effect reality?

Quote:

sudly said:

In saying that so can a drawing, a few words, a book or anything that gives anyone an idea. By your logic books can change reality too.




That would be true too.  The Communist Manifesto and The Silent Spring would be a couple of examples of this.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: lowbrow]
    #21834688 - 06/20/15 11:42 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

"The man was just as much a catalyst for the dream as the dream was for the man"?

I'm trying to understand what you're on about.
Are you trying to make the point that thought alone can change tangible reality?

My point is that thought alone does NOT change reality, it is the resulting actions from thought that change reality.

Again, the books themselves don't change reality, it's the actions someone takes after reading them that has an effect.

I am capable of abstract thought but that doesn't mean reality is going to change because of it.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineqwert3
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21847175 - 06/23/15 06:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

so u dont believe in a spirit world because youve never seen one, heard of one, felt one or smelled one ? or maybe u dont believe in spirits for one of these reasons ? maybe u just dont know everything caus u cant smell, hear, see or touch goodenouf? maybe. who knows? would they tell u? would it change anything?


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: qwert3]
    #21847250 - 06/23/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I don't believe in a spirit realm because as of yet no physical evidence suggesting it's existence has been produced by anyone or anything. Therefore there is no reason to believe in one other than faith.

I don't know everything... you don't either.

Would who tell me?
If evidence in any form was produced that showed the existence of a spirit realm I would have no choice but to believe it and would accordingly do so.
So far there is absolutely no reason to believe so.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineqwert3
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21847798 - 06/23/15 09:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

u claim to know that there is no evidence... how could you know that? u just wont accept the evidence put forward by others


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: qwert3]
    #21847940 - 06/23/15 09:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Because the only thing claiming the existence of consciousness without matter is religion.

The only 'evidence' put forward for these claims are holy books such as the bible.

No sane, logical, reasonable, rational, objective, sensible, wise or intelligent person could justifiably claim that these books are admissible in any sense as evidence of consciousness existing without matter.

The bible is a nice piece of literature and is written well but the context within is not proof of anything other than how uneducated cultures were about the universe 2000 years ago.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21849331 - 06/24/15 08:15 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I don't believe in a spirit realm because as of yet no physical evidence suggesting it's existence has been produced by anyone or anything. Therefore there is no reason to believe in one other than faith.

I don't know everything... you don't either.

Would who tell me?
If evidence in any form was produced that showed the existence of a spirit realm I would have no choice but to believe it and would accordingly do so.
So far there is absolutely no reason to believe so.





Ah, your the type that confrms the "reality" of existance by stubbing his toes on rocks (this is a reference to Refutation of Bishop Berkely, but could just as easily be applied)

I don't mean to be rude but this may not be the best conversation for you to join in.

-E. Borodin


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21849389 - 06/24/15 08:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

In the cases I'm speaking of the dream was the factor that initiated change, these people were provided with information that they should not have been able to obtain.

Srinivasa Ramanujan said in his dreams the Hindu God Shiva would show him scrolls with the mathematical formulas written on it, when he would wake up he would write down as much as he could....this was math of the highest calibur.
,
As far as Descartes, you would have to have known the history involving RUDOLPH II, Friedrich the 5th, and the alchemical kingdom that they were trying to establish in Prague. Once you realize what he was there to destroy (in the Hapsburg army) all of this gains another level.
any way an angel gave Descartes the information needed for modern science to gain footing.

There is obviously means of transfer of information that is mediated by altered States.

...again sudly, this really is not the conversation for you, it requires means of thinking that are obviously outside of your comfort zone, besides you are a person has seems to have his mind set on these issues.


E. Borodin


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Offlineqwert3
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21849912 - 06/24/15 10:59 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

------Because the only thing claiming the existence of consciousness without matter is religion.

The only 'evidence' put forward for these claims are holy books such as the bible. -----

this is a lack of information, it`s false,


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21850645 - 06/24/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
August Kekulé was attempting to understand the structure of the benzene ring, he had a dream of a snake eating its own tail, which resulted in his discovery of the benzene ring.

Rene Descartes while holding siege to Prague in a Hapsburg army had a dream that helped found modern science, as described by Terence mckenna: " I believe it was the 17th of August of that year, which was 1619, the beginning year of the Thirty Years’ War – they made camp at Ulm in Southern Germany. Just as an aside, Ulm was the birthplace of Albert Einstein. That night, Descartes had a dream. In the dream, a radiant angel appeared to him and said, “The conquest of nature is to be achieved through number and measure.” In that moment, Rene Descartes went from being a nobody to being the founder of modern science. Modern science was founded at the direction of an angel and the angel showed how it was. To this day, modern science has made all of its strides through the application of number, mathematical analysis, and measure"

Srinivasa Ramanujan said he was "shown" his complex mathematical formulas in dreams by Hindu gods.




The list goes on and on....

Im fascinated by psychedelic States and States of hallucination such as dreaming. I feel both methods can produce outstanding results to those who are paying attention, and can change the world in unbelievable ways.

There must be some property of mind that we are unaware of at this point, I feel information can be transferred through States of hallucination, but I'm still not sure exactly how this occors....



-E. Borodin




Most of psyche is un-conscious to us, just as most of the electromagnetic spectrum is invisible to our eyes. Philip K. Dick is well known for his direct, unmediated-by-senses-or-reason apprehension of the hernia that almost killed his son. PKD was able to blurt out the exact diagnosis to emergency room physicians even though he had no medical training and could not have learned the cause without exploratory surgery. Clairvoyance, meaning 'seeing-at-a-distance' is the usual term for 'knowing' something immediately and without the intermediary means of sense and reason. Clairvoyance is more than intuition, as intuition usually does not involve complex thoughts as in PKD's experience. The mechanism of a Psi function like clairvoyance is open to speculation. Perhaps proximity to the physicians in the ER allowed a n aspect of PKD's psyche to draw on their knowledge. By way of analogy, yesterday I saw a kid's ground-shaking invention - an algae-based polymer which when injected into an arterial bleed which would be fatal in 30 seconds, clots the bleed in 15 seconds! It's not approved by the FDA so he's marketing it to veterinary medicine, but the military will no doubt get the FDA to OK this stuff. It works by drawing needed molecules into a matrix with forms an instant life-saving clot. Similarly, PKD's psyche may have been able to retrieve the correct morphemes, phonemes, and syntax from 'morphic field'of  medical knowledge present in "Mind at large," like psychic wi-fi,  to construct an intelligible medical diagnosis for the ER physicians to understand. :shrug:

"While listening to the Beatles' "Strawberry Fields Forever" one day, Phil heard the lyrics change into a prophetic warning: 'Your son has an undiagnosed right inguinal hernia. The hydrocele has burst, and it has descended into the scrotal sac. He requires immediate attention, or will soon die.' Phil rushed him to the hospital and found every word to be true. The doctor scheduled the operation for the same day. Once again, the healing power of Phil's vision comes to the fore. In a sense the boy was "reborn", which was to have great consequences for Phil's subsequent actions." -  http://gnosis.org/pkd.biography.html

There is a long list of clairvoyant type events among historical figures. In Kekúle's experience, the Oroboric serpent is an archetypal image, repeated over the centuries and as such might serve as a gateway of Pure Ideas (in the Platonic sense) or in Morphic Fields as Sheldrake says.

"On Thursday, 19 July 1759 a great and well-documented fire broke out in Stockholm, Sweden. In the high and increasing wind it spread very fast, consuming about 300 houses and making 2000 people homeless.

When the fire broke out Swedenborg was at a dinner with friends in Gothenburg, about 400 km from Stockholm. He became agitated and told the party at six o'clock that there was a fire in Stockholm, that it had consumed his neighbor’s home and was threatening his own. Two hours later, he exclaimed with relief that the fire had stopped three doors from his home. In the excitement following his report, word even reached the ears of the provincial governor, who summoned Swedenborg that same evening and asked for a detailed recounting.

At that time, it took two to three days for news from Stockholm to reach Gothenburg by courier, so that is the shortest duration in which the news of the fire could reach Gothenburg. The first messenger from Stockholm with news of the fire was from the Board of Trade, who arrived Monday evening. The second messenger was a royal courier, who arrived on Tuesday. Both of these reports confirmed every statement to the precise hour that Swedenborg first expressed the information. The accounts are fully described in Bergquist, pp. 312–313 and in Chapter 31 of The Swedenborg Epic."  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg

PKD had an emotional attachment to his son of course, and Swedenborg's own house and neighbors resided in Stockholm, so the direction of these perceptions was guided by attachment, not just random. Assuredly, there were other emergencies everywhere else on the globe at the same moments.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: qwert3]
    #21853599 - 06/25/15 02:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qwert3 said:
------Because the only thing claiming the existence of consciousness without matter is religion.

The only 'evidence' put forward for these claims are holy books such as the bible. -----

this is a lack of information, it`s false,




*The only physical 'evidence' put forward for these claims are holy books such as the bible. The rest is assumption and metaphysics, both of which are not evident, factual or testable.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (06/25/15 02:47 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21853612 - 06/25/15 02:45 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I don't conform to reality, I accept it for what it is because that is what it is. I prefer using senses to observe the detectable if that's what you mean by stubbing my toe on rocks.

Sure, dreams can influence thought, I agree.

It appears as though you are referring to metaphysics, something which I do not pertain to or follow.
Our brains take in vast amounts of information and when we dream it processes through that information, sometimes when we awake and remember these dreams we can form ideas from it. That's the ability of consciousness, to think after observation.

I'm comfortable thinking about the ideas you've put forward such as angels giving information to people, I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean I won't put forward my opinions.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21854002 - 06/25/15 07:28 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Science is great for what it does, which is describe 3 dimentional time and space and laws of the world we live in, but there ARE things that are out-side of what science can describe.

-E. Borodin


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21854019 - 06/25/15 07:34 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Coincidentiaoppositorum said:
Science is great for what it does, which is describe 3 dimentional time and space and laws of the world we live in, but there ARE things that are out-side of what science can describe.

-E. Borodin




Yeah, like imagination and fantasy.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21854035 - 06/25/15 07:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you markosthegnostic!

Great response!

As a chemistry student and a fan of Carl Jung, Kekúle's story has always fascinated me, it brings jungian archetypes, dreams, and chemistry al into a single event...


I have had many personal experiances involving bizzare synchronicity and profound change as a result, completley unexplainable in every way, then I see similar events echo through out human history.....

Its fascinating stuff....though I don't like the term clairvoyance it is exactly what I was refering to, I also avoid the term "psychic", but its only because people will automatically put you in the "screw-ball" file without ever researching the events your referencing....


I think with psychedelics we may break the walls down and enter the world of science, at least to some degree, if you want to understand out of body experiance and life after death in a scientific manor, use DMT as the center of your study, it induces out of body, mystical, contact, and death experiances, we can now to this on command! Science may have a chance to intergrate into the greater field of psychedelia, which is ancient.

Dreaming is another alter-state I'm interested in because everybody dreams, but psychedelics are the bridge....


-E. Borodin


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21854082 - 06/25/15 08:14 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

"I have had many personal experiances involving bizzare synchronicity and profound change as a result, completley unexplainable in every way, then I see similar events echo through out human history"

Quite the oxymoron you have there, synchronicity is what explains your experiences.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisiblehTx
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: sudly]
    #21854913 - 06/25/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

..and how do you explain synchronicity?


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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OfflineCujllickduo
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Re: dreams impact on reality [Re: hTx]
    #21854974 - 06/25/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

if you understand the devil and how it works you hold the key

but with great responsibility its hard to control the pain that youve
seen

theres a rare few who know but if you do

i feel sorry for you as i know to.


If you know you know if you dont...


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