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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: ]
    #2188035 - 12/18/03 02:17 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

i do not deny the existance of "the collective"...

but i do think that it is an entirely irrelevant notion. society is made up of individuals. the collective is made up of individuals. there is really no reason to even bother thinking in terms of "the collective" because it is made up entirely of individuals


you people who think that collectives are merely groups of individuals should really investigate the concept of emergent properties of scale. a flock of birds or a school of fish will exhibit properties not found in its individual members. a collective is more than a sum of it's parts, sure it's only an abstraction so what? I thought most people can grasp abstract concepts? the concept of freedom is also an abstraction and people have no trouble getting their head around that one...

from Aggregation and Emergence:

"Aggregation is used to gather a group of interrelated things into a whole. The result is an aggregate object with unique characteristics that were not present in its constituent parts. This form of abstraction provides an effective way to think about large complex structures or systems, by elevating the frame of reference to a higher level of detail"

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: Phred]
    #2188148 - 12/18/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Likewise, in times of war (obviously an emergency situation) it may be necessary to take actions knowing ahead of time that such actions will almost certainly result in the deaths and/or serious injury of non-combatants.

I wouldn't say that war is obviously an emergency situation. it depends on the kind of war. if we are attacked or about to be attacked, it's an emergency. a war of aggression is not an emergency.

there CAN be individual situations on the ground that are emergencies and soldiers might have to make tough moral choices. however, these emergencies do not justify the larger conflict.

Where many people err in deciding whether or not an action is good for "society" is that they evaluate the effects of that action solely on a subset of that society. For example, proponents of steel tariffs consider them "good for society" because they save the jobs of 5,000 steelworkers -- a subset of "society". They ignore the fact that those same tariffs result in the loss of 26,000 jobs of those who work in the steel-buying industries

that's a poor example of something done for the "good of society" because tarriffs are (quite obviously) meant to protect specific industries, sometimes at the expense of consumers and other industries. and again you bring up the straw man example of the boneheaded Bush steel tarriffs, which is just about the poorest example of a tarriff you will find (30%! tarriff on all imported steel). better examples of actions taken for the benefit of the collective would be the aforementioned pollution laws and mutual defense. to that I would add things like roads, public education, phone lines, electrical grids etc, all of which required a capitol investment by the government. these services are routinely and voluntarily used by members of the collective. and if you refuse to pay for services rendered, that is theft.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: ]
    #2188149 - 12/18/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

i'd suggest that it symbolizes society as a whole. all people in a particular nation (or does "the collective" include all human beings?)...




Id certainly agree with that. However I see the collective as being made up of countless sub-collectives. Wherever humans work together in groups with some form of common purpose I would call that a collective.

As infidel has pointed out with any group, the sum is greater than the parts. Of course this is an abstract concept but then so is attributing specific rights to the so called individual.

Still no examples of people living outside of a collective either, and as this means we all must live in a collective how can this concept be in anyway abstract?

I think its good to clarify what we are actually talking about with this term!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Anonymous

Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: GazzBut]
    #2188336 - 12/18/03 04:16 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Still no examples of people living outside of a collective either, and as this means we all must live in a collective how can this concept be in anyway abstract?

if the collective is comprised of all people, it would be impossible to not be a part of it, no? even if you do not associate with other individuals, are you still a part of the collective?

what does it actually mean to be a part of "the collective"? it seems as though you're a part of it simply by being alive... i still see it as a pretty useless notion.

there is one man who has twice as much property as he really needs in order to survive. there is another who has nothing and will probably freeze or starve. is it right to take some from the first man and give to the second?

there is one man who has saved up just enough property to live off of and he no longer works. there is another man who cannot make enough money to feed his family. is it right to force the first man to take up a job in order to support the second?

there is one man with two kidneys and another with none. without a transplant, the second man will die. is it right to take one from the first man to give to the second?

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: ]
    #2188497 - 12/18/03 05:29 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

there is one man who has twice as much property as he really needs in order to survive. there is another who has nothing and will probably freeze or starve. is it right to take some from the first man and give to the second?






Would you need to be forced to handover only some of your property to save another man from starvation?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: GazzBut]
    #2188689 - 12/18/03 07:53 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Would you need to be forced to handover only some of your property to save another man from starvation?



It's quite clear that is not what he asked.

He asked....
"is it right to take some from the first man and give to the second?"

I'd be interested in reading your response to that question.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2188691 - 12/18/03 07:56 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

I wouldn't say that war is obviously an emergency situation. it depends on the kind of war. if we are attacked or about to be attacked, it's an emergency. a war of aggression is not an emergency.

War is an emergency condition regardless of who started it. I do not say it is correct to initiate wars -- quite the reverse, as you are well aware. I'm the guy who says it is incorrect to initiate force against other humans, remember? I even said the US should not have been involved in the invasion of Hitler's Europe.

however, these emergencies do not justify the larger conflict.

I don't justify wars. I merely am capable of imagining situations in which those fighting one are justified in taking actions which have a near-certainty of injuring or killing non-combatants. You and I have been around this mulberry bush before.

and again you bring up the straw man example of the boneheaded Bush steel tarriffs, which is just about the poorest example of a tarriff you will find (30%! tarriff on all imported steel).

All tariffs have the same effect -- some of the collective benefits from them at the expense of others in the collective. I use the steel tariff argument merely because it is the most recent. And by the way, there are many MANY historical examples of tariffs in excess of 30%. The point is that it is an example (one of many examples) of an action supposedly taken to benefit the collective which actually provides no benefit to the collective.

and if you refuse to pay for services rendered, that is theft.

First of all, you have no choice but to use many of the services of which you speak, since the government refuses to allow competitors into the market. Secondly, you are forced to pay for "services" you don't need, don't want, and may never use.

This is no different from the Mafia telling a bar owner they will install a jukebox in his bar, and he has to pay him three hundred dollars a week for it. The jukebox breaks down constantly, sucks three times the electricity a well-designed jukebox would, and is filled with the world's crappiest songs that no one would listen to voluntarily. Yet the bar owner has no choice but to pay.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2189121 - 12/18/03 11:11 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Your post on emergent properties was right on point.  Those are some of the different attributes that differentiate between an individual and a collective.  The collective is analytically distinct from an individual.  I think we have established enough differences to pursue this full force.

:thumbup:

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Anonymous

Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: Phred]
    #2189151 - 12/18/03 11:19 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Good points.

But I have to ask where justice is in all this. Where is justice in denying a person enough sustenance to survive?

Because a person with lots of food (which he legally earned) can deny a starving man a loaf of bread. Is that just?

Tell you what. I am going to start another thread and hopefuly you will respond to it. I am very interested in your views because I am struggling with a few ideas and perhaps you can shed some light on them for me.

MM

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: ]
    #2189182 - 12/18/03 11:32 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Please point out where I said I didn't think the collective exists? You appear to draw conclusions out of thin air. The ontological definitions of a collective and an individual have several attributes that differentiate one from the other. Evolving has been trying to explain that but your lack of familiarity with these issues seems to have resulted in confusion for you.

No, that was actually infidelGod's point about emergent properties, and it is correct.  Evolving's point was that the individual is "real" and the collective is "merely an abstraction" which is a simplistic and ultimately incorrect description.  No confusion whatsoever.

Your long tedious posts bore me to tears. There are far too many errors in logic for me to take the time to point them out.

Sorry, didn't write them to entertain you.  As usual, you boast about your overwhelming powers of logical analysis without actually demonstrating them, like the man who boasts about how well-endowed he is and then always runs to hide in the toilet stall in order to take a leak.  This would be tedious if it weren't for the fact that there's something endearingly bumbling about it. :kiss:

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Anonymous

Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2189202 - 12/18/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

It looks like everytime you set your fingers to the keyboard you prove my point(s).

Don't misunderstand me.  I think you are articulate but you are overly winded.

Aside from the fact that I rarely, if ever, saw you admit an error.

You go on and on and on and on and on, etc.

Evolving's idea about the collective stands side by side with infidelGOD's.  But evidently that point eludes you.

I will be interested to see your response to Pinky's answer (as long as it isn't another "tome").  By any chance are you a writer?  Your posts are longer than mine when I am on a roll and that is saying something.

A good writer can make his posts without stressing the attention span of Job, a patient man by all accounts.

Carry on,

MM :smile:

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: ]
    #2189283 - 12/19/03 12:43 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

The ontological definitions of a collective and an individual have several attributes that differentiate one from the other. Evolving has been trying to explain that

. . .

Evolving's idea about the collective stands side by side with infidelGOD's


I honestly don't see how you can come to this conclusion. I assume you're following this thread and that you have read Evolving's statements. when he referred to a collective as "mythical" and a "silly notion", I suppose he was just trying to explain the ontological differences between the individual and the collective?

or what about when he quotes abelard. he apparently thinks that there can be no collective will, no collective effort, no collective ambitions, and no collective commerce. that sounds like a guy who doesn't think much of the collective.

he seems to reject the notion of a collective because it's only an "arbitrary mental construct which you hide behind in order to deny the reality that INDIVIDUALS are what make up any grouping of people." first of all, it's not an "arbitrary mental construct", it's real. it exists, but only to those able to perceive it. secondly, it's true that individuals are the only physical things that make up a collective, but as I pointed out, there is more to it than that. much more.

he also said "The 'collective' then is an abstraction, it exists not as a distinct entity which you can point to". the collective is an abstraction yes. that much is obvious, but it is also a distinct entity with distinct characteristics which are not directly attributable to it's individual members.

the collective is real AND it is an abstraction.

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Anonymous

Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2189301 - 12/19/03 12:56 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, I retract that part of my statement.  You seem to understand the differences and the similarities well enough.

I was referring to the portion of Evolving's idea of the collective that was parallel to IG's, not the portion that wasn't.

This is like justice or freedom which are mental contructs without material form.

Well not exactly but I hope you see my point.

I am tired and my brain is fuzzy.

Anyway, thanks for the direct posts. :smile:

Cheers,

MM

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: ]
    #2189309 - 12/19/03 01:02 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

cool. I figured that Plato would understand that the real and the abstract are not mutually exclusive. :wink:

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: Phred]
    #2189342 - 12/19/03 01:28 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

of an action supposedly taken to benefit the collective which actually provides no benefit to the collective.

you're right that that particular action (the Bush steel tariff) did not benefit the collective, but it was never intended to. it was meant to benefit a small number of workers in states with lots of swing voters. of course everyone knows that steel tariffs will raise steel prices and hurt consumers.

All tariffs have the same effect -- some of the collective benefits from them at the expense of others in the collective

yes. it is precisely for this reason that I said tariffs are not good examples of actions that benefit THE collective.

First of all, you have no choice but to use many of the services of which you speak

actually, you do have the choice. it's the ultimate freedom of choice in a sense. nobody said it was going to be practical or easy to opt out but the fact remains, you do have that choice. nobody is forcing you to drive or use electricity or the internet (which was developed by the government and made available to all). you choose to do so.

since the government refuses to allow competitors into the market.

do you really think there should be private companies building roads and sewers and such and charging people to use it? has this ever been tried? how do you know it will work? I don't trust profit-driven companies to provide basic services and infrastructure. what if they decide that servicing my house with water and electricity is not profitable enough?

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2189356 - 12/19/03 01:45 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

nobody said it was going to be practical or easy to opt out but the fact remains, you do have that choice. nobody is forcing you to drive or use electricity or the internet (which was developed by the government and made available to all). you choose to do so.

Try keeping your child at home rather than sending him to a government school.

do you really think there should be private companies building roads and sewers and such and charging people to use it?

Yes.

has this ever been tried? how do you know it will work?

The private roads concept is not new. Various condominium type communities use it. Same with sewage systems. There are several such systems here in the Dominican Republic. They work fine.

I don't trust profit-driven companies to provide basic services and infrastructure. what if they decide that servicing my house with water and electricity is not profitable enough?

Then you do without.

For the first several years I lived here, there was no water main to our village. Everyone used wells. Some still do, rather than pay for "street" water (this is what they call the water from the government-run water company). My girlfriend manages a small hotel here, a VERY nice one as a matter of fact, that uses well water rather than hooking into the public water system.

As for electricity, the private providers of electricity here do a far better job of providing it than does the government. There is NEVER 24 hours of uninterrupted street power here, and it is not unusual to go 48 hours with no street power at all. Anyone with any money at all is hooked into one of the thousands of small electricity providers. Some of the larger ones are only slightly more expensive per kilowatt hour than the street power, but they are orders of magnitude more reliable.

pinky


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: Phred]
    #2189384 - 12/19/03 02:07 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Try keeping your child at home rather than sending him to a government school.

you have the choice of sending them to a private school, or maybe do some home schooling. like I said, no one said it was easy or practical. but the choice is there.

Then you do without

kinda defeats the purpose of allowing competitors into the market doesn't it?

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2189410 - 12/19/03 02:21 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

you have the choice of sending them to a private school, or maybe do some home schooling.

The government decides whether your brand of home schooling is acceptable. If they deem it unacceptable, they will not allow you to keep the child home. If you resist, they will take your child from you. If you resist them taking your child from you forcefully enough, they will kill you.

kinda defeats the purpose of allowing competitors into the market doesn't it?

The various private competitors don't charge you for their services unless you use them. The government does, whether you use them or not. I have no children, yet I am forced to pay for the education of the children of others.

pinky


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: Phred]
    #2189447 - 12/19/03 02:51 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

actually, I don't think you should even be thinking about leaving the collective if you have children because it will effect them too, so forget that scenario. as an individual though, you still do have that choice.

The various private competitors don't charge you for their services unless you use them. The government does, whether you use them or not. I have no children, yet I am forced to pay for the education of the children of others.

even if you have no children of your own, you still do benefit from an educated populace.

what would happen if funding for public education ceased? the rich kids would all go to private school no doubt, but that would leave a whole lot of poor kids with a lot of free time... and what about their children? they wouldn't have access to education either. where would all this lead? I think public education is one of those things that benefit society as a whole as well as everyone in it.

do you think only the children of rich parents should have access to education?

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: the individual vs. the collective [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2189451 - 12/19/03 02:53 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

"is it right to take some from the first man and give to the second?"




Obviously right and wrong are abstract concepts. Is it right for someone to withhold wealth so that another person dies? I would classify that as manslaughter myself.

I dont think it is wrong to take from one to give to another in need, under the right circumstances. I dont neccessarily agree with current levels of taxation or what happens to the money when the middle man i.e the government gets hold of it. But I do agree with the concept of a structured form of donation towards society rather than simply relying on the good will of others. I also think we could all pay alot less tax and see alot more return on our money if we werent giving it to an incompetent and corrupt collective of individuals.
I think a limited amount of force i.e taxation, helps to apply an accepted level of morality across a society. If someone really needs to be forced to handover some of their property to help another then so be it. Everyone benefits from being part of a stable society where you can safely live and earn a living so I dont think it is asking too much to expect people to contribute to helping those less fortunate and also to maintain services that benefit all such as roads, police, fire services etc etc.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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