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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 8 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
#21840978 - 06/22/15 08:59 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: We need to close tax loopholes and cut spending is the answer. Why should the government grow at a rate several times greater than the inflation rate? You know what 'baseline budgeting' is? That is how the government has operated for years under both parties. Increase the federal budget 6% a year automatically.
What is the purpose of arbitrary tax increases on the rich? They already pay most of the taxes in the US.
And why doesnt government adjust its budget to its revenue? This goes on under democrats and R's alike.
I don't understand how you maintain this disconnect between "closing tax loopholes" and fighting against taxes on the rich.
Who do you think those loopholes serve? Who do you think created them? Whose share of the tax burden has been consistently falling?
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
#21841397 - 06/22/15 11:40 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Fal having failed again, tries once more in hopes of scoring at least a point or two.
>Nice try, but here are the points I've proven and that you've failed to back up:
You have proved none of them, you give some blather, get corrected with facts, blather some more and then claim you proved something. Not even a nice try.
>At least you realize you lost this argument and are changing the topic from stimulus spending to total spending.
The argument was never just about stimulus spending so don't lie (again). You are the one who said spending boosts the economy. After some $12T or so of spending, more than any president in history which you admit by the fact you dodge the point, the economy is on life support, has not crashed yet but only the dizzy cheerleaders try to tell us its doing great.
The bum you constantly defend couldn't run a kool aid stand. You could pick a goof off the street and let him spend the money and our economy would be booming right now and most likely the goof would have spent some on infrastructure. Its not like many many wise people didn't tell obumble all this, he is not just a goof but an ultra goof. Like a fool and a damn fool.
>The recovery is going FAR faster than during the Great Depression, because the Government stepped in early
Again with the 'yay team' and ignoring facts. They didn't have trillions of dollars to throw around during the depression and by some measures, they did better than obumble. BTW, we weren't in a depression let alone a great one so you once again are desperately searching for straw arguments.
Then star tried to speak some sense to you but to no avail.
>starfire_xes said: b) the main part of the housing crisis, was mainly the result of democrat pressure and policy on housing
fal >This has been proven wrong MANY times in this forum. There was no regulations on the banks to make subprime loans to regular people - the pressure came from a desire to make a quick dollar and then sell the loans.
There was lots of pressure to make loans and congress did indeed stack the deck in favor of big banks. Yes, it was your favorite dems along with crooked r's who did things that way. When you tell banks you will take liar loans, substandard loans, etc and give full value for them, what do you expect them to do? Its like the store keeper says to the shifty character, "i'll turn my back while you handle the expensive stuff, we need to get rid of it anyway" Who is at fault, the thief or both?
>Because of the deficits that result from spending. That's why we need to increase taxes on the rich, so we're not all burdened by these high deficits.
Again with the dizzy moonbat commie nonsense.
star >We need to close tax loopholes and cut spending is the answer. Why should the government grow at a rate several times greater than the inflation rate?
Of course, this is obvious to anyone with even a basic grasp of economics. I'd say even many elementary school children would see it as obvious. Quit drinking the kool aid, fal, and get real.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Nice try, but here are the points I've proven and that you've failed to back up:
When did the economy collapse? Falcon91Wolvrn03: In 2007 or 2008. Evidence. Stonehenge: Either under Clinton or in 2009. Evidence? None Do Democrats have better economic results? Falcon91Wolvrn03: Yes. Evidence: Income by state and stock market gains by president. Stonehenge: No. Evidence: None Did Clinton start or end with a surplus? Falcon91Wolvrn03: Started with a deficit ended with a surplus. Evidence: https://files.shroomery.org/files/15-001/039307895-DeficitGDP.jpg Stonehenge: Started with a surplus and ended with a deficit. Evidence: You actually admitted you were wrong on this, but insist that Democratic presidents shouldn't be credited for the country's successes, only its failures. Has the economy improved under Obama? Falcon91Wolvrn03: Yes. Evidence: Google Stonehenge: No. Evidence: Labor Force Participation is the only stat that matters, even though unemployment is way down.
You have proved none of them, you give some blather, get corrected with facts, blather some more and then claim you proved something. Not even a nice try.
Let's analyze this one point at a time, starting with when the economy collapsed. I provided Google results for "did the economy crash in 2009?". ALL the results confirmed the crash began in 2007-2008. Yet you call this "blather". Why do you believe every news article that exists on this topic is wrong?
You said I was "corrected with facts". What facts did you present showing the collapse started in 2009?
We'll move to the nextpoints once you answer these questions.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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You give an excellent example of blather in your last post. The point was never when the economy collapsed, it was in 09. The start of it was way back in the setting up of the deal where the govt buys dirty paper from the banks. This lead to the r/e bubble and meltdown which in domino fashion brought down the rest of the economy. Do you deny any of that? You are so fanatically focused on saying it started in bush's term over and over that you lose sight of the whole situation.
Its good to focus on one point because you usually spew out so much misinformation along with a bit of good info that its hard to totally demolish one before another pops up.
If it makes you feel better, i'll repeat what I said before that shrub was a dunce and a no good president. He got us into Iraq on false pretenses, he did however negotiate the pullout which the "peace" president promptly ripped up and sent troops back in and also to many other places but that is getting off topic.
As far as bad presidents go, we've had a run of them, its really hard to rank them but obumble arguably has done more damage to the country than any other. Are you working on your defence of obumble when the economy really does crash? Who will you blame it on, shrub, Reagan, or maybe Donald trump? It couldn't have anything to do with the incompetent boob could it? But that really is getting too far ahead.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21842924 - 06/22/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Raising taxes on the rich is so great that France scuttled their Millionaires Tax in January.
In your face, I told you so post coming up.....
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21843725 - 06/22/15 10:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Let's analyze this one point at a time, starting with when the economy collapsed. I provided Google results for "did the economy crash in 2009?". ALL the results confirmed the crash began in 2007-2008. Yet you call this "blather". Why do you believe every news article that exists on this topic is wrong?
You said I was "corrected with facts". What facts did you present showing the collapse started in 2009?
We'll move to the next points once you answer these questions.
You give an excellent example of blather in your last post. The point was never when the economy collapsed, it was in 09.
I'll ask you again: What facts did you present showing the collapse started in 2009?
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Its good to focus on one point because you usually spew out so much misinformation along with a bit of good info that its hard to totally demolish one before another pops up.
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm showing you were wrong on every single point, starting with the first one.
Now, show us evidence the economy collapsed in 2009, as I've shown it collapsed in 2007-2008, and then we'll move on to the next point.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
#21843866 - 06/22/15 10:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: Raising taxes on the rich is so great that France scuttled their Millionaires Tax in January.
In your face, I told you so post coming up.....

Who here favored a 75% tax rate? That's crazy.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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You think those feeble rhetorical tricks will get you out of the corner you find yourself in?
>What facts did you present showing the collapse started in 2009?
I never said that. Once again you flog the straw man and pretend you won a great battle. As a matter of fact I said it started way before that when your fellow moon beams were passing laws rubber stamping the buying of any sort of mortgages with no checks into the validity of grossly inflated appraisals, straw buyers, liar loans and so on.
You see how easily you got bested once again? You were disproved on every thing you brought up. You always use the same tricks so it becomes just that easy.
>Who here favored a 75% tax rate? That's crazy.
What top rate do you want, Vladimir?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21844052 - 06/22/15 11:27 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: What facts did you present showing the collapse started in 2009?
I never said that. Once again you flog the straw man
Here is what you said:
The economy really crashed in '09 not 08. The point was never when the economy collapsed, it was in 09.
Should I move to the next point, or should I spare you the embarrassment?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21844397 - 06/23/15 01:11 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: As far as bad presidents go, we've had a run of them, its really hard to rank them but obumble arguably has done more damage to the country than any other.
Based on what would you argue that Obama has caused the most damage? How are you measuring that?
Personally, off the top of my head, I think the following three presidents were much much more damaging (although I'm sure there are more):
Hoover-Basically caused the Great Depression, or at the very least did nothing effective to stop it. The massive shanty towns that housed hundreds of thousands of newly homeless workers were named after him. Worldwide GDP fell by 15% and approximately 1 in 4 Americans were unemployed.
Buchanan- He was president before the civil war and despite his efforts, could not do anything to prevent the war from happening. Even as the war had already started, he still seemed to deny the inevitability of it and blamed it on fanaticals. His handling of the situation alienated both sides.
Johnson-Completely botched the issue after the war. After Lincoln was assassinated, he took over and made a massive mess of reconstruction. He told the southern states to go back to holding their own elections to reform their civil governments. They, of course, elected their old leaders who passed Black Codes to take rights from the newly freed slaves. Congress, was not happy with this, and passed laws to countering the actions, but Johnson, who opposed the 14th amendment, vetoed the shit out of everything. This created a huge rift between him and Congress, eventually culminating in his impeachment.
So, I'm curious, why do you think Obama has done more damage to the country than presidents who caused the Great Depression, the Civil War, and who strongly attempted to prevent blacks from having almost any rights at all?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides


Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21844615 - 06/23/15 03:32 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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There seems to be many who feel that anything Obama does is intrinsically bad, no matter what it is. Witness the furor over the preservation of Net Neutrality we had in the Pub a few months back.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Le_Canard]
#21844670 - 06/23/15 04:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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That net neutrality thing was hilarious. I couldn't believe so many people would oppose it, on an Internet forum nonetheless!
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21845148 - 06/23/15 08:34 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not sure what the surprise was for you. There are those, myself among them, that feel the issue was none of the governments business. The issue should have remained the business of the ISP's.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Fal, your points have fallen apart and you went from claiming I said the economy "started" to crash in 09 from your last post to now talking about when the crash hit. Yes, I think the crash was most apparent in 09 and started well before that when the govt began taking all that bad paper.
The stock market fell to its low point in 09, I believe it was. Previously you used the market as some sort of evidence that we are doing great right now. Therefore, you should quickly agree that 09 was its low point. What are you trying to say now?
>Should I move to the next point
Since you seem to have no point here, perhaps move on to where you do have one? What are you trying to tell us, that we are doing great now? That has been thoroughly debunked. That the stock market is doing well? Sure but so what, what has that to do with the economy in general?
At one time you were trying to convince us higher taxes is the answer. You ignore the fact that spending more than we make is the problem, no matter how much comes in, the drunken bums in govt spend it and trillions more. Try to decide what your point is and make some sort of coherent argument to support it. You used to be able to do that.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#21845254 - 06/23/15 09:29 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: I'm not sure what the surprise was for you. There are those, myself among them, that feel the issue was none of the governments business. The issue should have remained the business of the ISP's.
It's off topic for this thread, but I was surprised that people were interested in allowing the ISPs to continue offering a piss-poor product, while maintaining their monopoly and charging consumers to access the content that they are charging the providers to deliver. I don't see how net neutrality could do anything but help make the internet faster, cheaper, and more reliable.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21845461 - 06/23/15 10:26 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's their product to offer at terms they choose. Other than products or terms that directly harm others, government has no place involving themselves.
I don't decide on my stance depending on whether something is good for me personally. I first think about the right and wrong of it. Government telling a business how to operate, is wrong.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#21845610 - 06/23/15 11:08 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: It's their product to offer at terms they choose. Other than products or terms that directly harm others, government has no place involving themselves.
I don't decide on my stance depending on whether something is good for me personally. I first think about the right and wrong of it. Government telling a business how to operate, is wrong.
That is true. One thing I would add is they need to make it easier for start ups to compete with established providers. Some progress has been made in that area.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Astral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21845647 - 06/23/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out" -Bill Hicks-
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Astral Pain]
#21845720 - 06/23/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not yet. It was a test vote. The actual vote tomorrow (Wednesday).
Quote:
The Senate on Tuesday voted to advance President Obama’s trade agenda, approving a measure to end debate on fast-track authority.
The 60-37 motion sets up a vote on final passage on Wednesday. If the Senate approves fast-track or trade promotion authority (TPA), it would then be sent to Obama’s desk to become law.
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/245827-senate-advances-fast-track-trade-bill-for-obama
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#21845757 - 06/23/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: There are those, myself among them, that feel the issue was none of the governments business. The issue should have remained the business of the ISP's.
I was surprised that people were interested in allowing the ISPs to continue offering a piss-poor product, while maintaining their monopoly and charging consumers to access the content that they are charging the providers to deliver. I don't see how net neutrality could do anything but help make the internet faster, cheaper, and more reliable.
It's their product to offer at terms they choose.
I don't decide on my stance depending on whether something is good for me personally.
Luvdemshrooms always boasts how he's willing to sacrifice his own lifestyle (and that of the rest of the country) for the good of the super wealthy, because to him that beats allowing the Government make our lives better.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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