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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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The economy really crashed in '09 not 08. That was when the stimulus money was supposed to fix things but he gave it to big banks and didn't require them to lend it so little got into the economy. You can't blame that on shrub, its was obumble's fumble.
What's that graph supposed to be, the stock market or something? You always bluff with your so called evidence so we have to examine it carefully. Much of the stimulus wound up in the market which helps few people. Under dems, the rich prosper but the poor people have to work part time.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21836705 - 06/21/15 12:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: The economy really crashed in '09 not 08.
No, it crashed in 2007-2008, as a simple Google search will confirm, and we felt the pain of that crash in 2009.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: That was when the stimulus money was supposed to fix things but he gave it to big banks and didn't require them to lend it so little got into the economy. You can't blame that on shrub, its was obumble's fumble.
That's like saying Bush gave us a ride in a luxury car, totalled the car, but it's Obama's fault for not immediately restoring the totaled car to like new conditions. Obama didn't crash the car, AND he ensured we could keep riding in it (the Depression was avoided).
Note - I don't even blame Bush for the crash that happened under his Presidency - it was Wall Street's fault.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: What's that graph supposed to be, the stock market or something? You always bluff with your so called evidence so we have to examine it carefully.
Yes, the stock market. If you have a chart showing the economy crashed in 2009, feel free to post it. I can't wait!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>Yes, the stock market
So that's where you come up with the nonsense that the economy is doing so great, all because the stock market is up? More people out of work than ever before or having to take a part time job they can't even live on. I didn't realize you were on the side of the 1%
> I don't even blame Bush for the crash that happened under his Presidency - it was Wall Street's fault.
It started under Clinton and came to a head later. Again, all you seem to see is the stock market.
> we felt the pain of that crash in 2009.
Like I've been saying. Only now we have no real recovery, the stimulus was wasted. But since its not an actual depression you want to break out the party hats and praise obumble?
>That's like saying Bush gave us a ride in a luxury car, totalled the car, but it's Obama's fault for not immediately restoring the totaled car to like new condition
Its like saying Clinton fucked us over, shrub did the same and now obumble is doing it even more. Due to the inept management by those clowns, the car broke down. We paid for a brand new one, or a fleet of new ones, and instead obumble delivered a broken down junker and said "enjoy" while running off with the cash. You of course eat it up and joined the cheerleaders trying to con us into thinking happy days are here again. Wake up and smell the coffee.
When the financial system breaks down, inflation hits like a mack truck and they start saying the "D" word, I'm sure you will try to blame that on shrub too or maybe go back to Reagan and Nixon avoiding the reality of what a fuckup the current occupant has been. Maybe when you realize how horrible the ttp, ttip, tisa, and other crap is that your hero is clobbering us with, you might just possibly wise up. A tiny bit anyway. Stranger things have happened.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21836998 - 06/21/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
So that's where you come up with the nonsense that the economy is doing so great, all because the stock market is up? More people out of work than ever before or having to take a part time job they can't even live on. I didn't realize you were on the side of the 1%
Since Obama took office jobs and real weekly earnings are up, while unemployment has gone down.
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/01/obamas-numbers-january-2015-update/
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21837151 - 06/21/15 02:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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The figures are all cooked and only fools believe them. Or crooked politicians who pretend to believe them. The labor force participation is at its lowest rate in decades, going back to when women stayed home and men worked.
Wages have been flat or falling under obumble
http://www.epi.org/publication/stagnant-wages-in-2014/
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21837166 - 06/21/15 02:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Yes, the stock market
So that's where you come up with the nonsense that the economy is doing so great, all because the stock market is up?
Oh my lord, can you ever respond to what people actually say rather than making up a straw man? Here is what we said:
I'm not saying the economy is good right now, or that Wall Street didn't dip their hand in the taxpayers wallet, but it's not nearly as bad as it was in 2008. Things aren't nearly as good as they should be, but aren't nearly as bad as they were in 08. Nobody said the economy is doing well. But it is FAR better than when Bush was in office in 2008.
And I'll say it one more time for good measure in the hopes that you'll actually listen: No one thinks the economy is great right now, but it's far better than it was when Bush left office.
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I don't even blame Bush for the crash that happened under his Presidency - it was Wall Street's fault.
It started under Clinton and came to a head later. Again, all you seem to see is the stock market.
No, the economy was doing fabulous under Clinton. If you want to blame him for repealing Glass-Steagall at the end of his term, then yes, he is partly to blame for the future collapse of the economy.
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Stonehenge said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: we felt the pain of that crash in 2009.
Only now we have no real recovery, the stimulus was wasted. But since its not an actual depression you want to break out the party hats and praise obumble?
But we ARE recovering. Everyone's been showing you links to prove it, and you haven't been able to counter it with anything but your own fantasies. Things aren't great, but they're far better than a depression. And yes, the Government deserves credit for preventing a disastrous depression which we know from past experience would have lasted until a massive stimulus bailed us out.
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: That's like saying Bush gave us a ride in a luxury car, totalled the car, but it's Obama's fault for not immediately restoring the totaled car to like new condition
Its like saying Clinton fucked us over, shrub did the same and now obumble is doing it even more. Due to the inept management by those clowns, the car broke down. We paid for a brand new one, or a fleet of new ones, and instead obumble delivered a broken down junker.
If you believe the Government can restore things back to normal after a massive global collapse of the economy by snapping their fingers, you are deep in fantasy land.
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Stonehenge said: Maybe when you realize how horrible the ttp, ttip, tisa, and other crap is that your hero is clobbering us with, you might just possibly wise up.
I realize that these are bad. Please stop making up straw men.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (06/21/15 02:12 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21837191 - 06/21/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: The figures are all cooked and only fools believe them. Or crooked politicians who pretend to believe them. The labor force participation is at its lowest rate in decades, going back to when women stayed home and men worked.
Wages have been flat or falling under obumble
http://www.epi.org/publication/stagnant-wages-in-2014/
Do you realize business owners are making more than ever before? The problems you express are the result of Congress not doing anything to help get this wealth to the people that actually earned it. As I've said before, to fix the problems you just mentioned, Congress needs to implement things like minimum wage laws, higher taxes on the super wealthy, etc.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21837423 - 06/21/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >Yes, the stock market
So that's where you come up with the nonsense that the economy is doing so great, all because the stock market is up? More people out of work than ever before or having to take a part time job they can't even live on. I didn't realize you were on the side of the 1%Quote:
Stone, don't you see how great things are. Employment is 'up' I mean, FULL time employment and the labor participation rate is lower, but more people have low-wage service sector jobs, and more of the jobs overall are part time instead of full time, but hey, according to Nancy Pelosi that gives people more free time do do stuff.
Wages are down by around 5000 per family since Obama took office, but hey, the stock market is up so Big Investors, Big Banks, and Big Business are making money, so government tax revenues are at an all time high. Of course, individual taxes are up somewhat but, hey we are all one big happy collective family.
The number of people on welfare is way up under Obama but thats good, because people have food and shelter, so they dont need no stinkin' job. Oh, and 'everybody' has health care. It's more expensive, deductibles are much higher, and some people like me pay a few thousand dollars a year more for things, that way, the wealth can be transferred from people that have a little money to others without the government having to take the blame for raising taxes, so that is good.
Let's not forget foreign policy too. That is a real success under O. So who cares if we've lost Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, among others, to chaos and anarchy under radical madmen? After all, it's all bushes fault and hey, Obama got us out of Iraq. It's not Obama's fault that they are burning people alive, including women and children, torturing and raping kids, looting, etc. I mean, if we would have left some troops as was planned this wouldn't be happening but hey, Obama looks really good for pulling us out so fuck it.
Oh, one more thing about jobs--Stone, you must be a wingnut. You dont give Obama credit for all those jobs 'saved or created' You can't measure them but hey, if Obama hadn't given away trillions to big business and big banks, the system would have collapsed. 
Edited by starfire_xes (06/21/15 02:53 PM)
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Sigh... Vladimir (fal) lenin said
>But it is FAR better than when Bush was in office in 2008.
Shrub was in office for many years besides 08, quit with the straw man. Even in much of 08 it was good but you pick one spot and say 'see how bad it was'
>the economy was doing fabulous under Clinton. If you want to blame him for repealing Glass-Steagall at the end of his term, then yes, he is partly to blame for the future collapse of the economy.
"partly"??? he inherited a surplus from his predecessor, lets see who was that, some pub. He squandered the surplus, tried to take credit for it knowing a few fools would swallow that lie. He likes people who swallow. Glass steagall was a major treachery against the public, not his biggest, he was a traitor, thief and liar among other things.
>But we ARE recovering. Everyone's been showing you links to prove it, and you haven't been able to counter it with anything but your own fantasies
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/628-labor-force-participation-has-hovered-near-37-year-low-11-months 62.8%: Labor Force Participation Has Hovered Near 37-Year-Low for 11 Months
> Things aren't great, but they're far better than a depression. And yes, the Government deserves credit for preventing a disastrous depression
No depression so we should be dancing in the streets?
>...which we know from past experience would have lasted until a massive stimulus bailed us out.
8 trillion dollars isn't enough stimulus to bring us back to a robust economy? Any fool could have thrown that much money around and the economy would be booming. Almost any fool except a damn fool or a back stabber who gave it to the banks and the rich. Here you are rubber stamping his crimes whereas if a gop did it you would be screaming about it.
>I realize that these are bad (ttp, ttip, tisa, etc)
Oh, you will grudgingly admit they are "bad". You have no idea how bad, if not for wikileaks we would be completely in the dark. They are very very very bad. Who is pushing this crap? I want to hear you say it just once?
>Do you realize business owners are making more than ever before?
Who, Monsanto, apple, Microsoft, blackwater, the fortune 500? The average guy who you care nothing about is not doing so well. Your answer is let them eat cake. You have your job packing boxes or whatever and don't care about anyone else. That's the trouble with moonbats, they are all theory and ignore the reality on the ground.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
#21837481 - 06/21/15 03:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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>Stone, don't you see how great things are. Employment is 'up' I mean, FULL time employment and the labor participation rate is lower, but more people have low-wage service sector jobs, and more of the jobs overall are part time instead of full time, but hey, according to Nancy Pelosi that gives people more free time do do stuff.
Yes, people don't need money to feed their families, they need more free time. Obumble has come through.
>Wages are down by around 5000 per family since Obama took office, but hey, the stock market is up so Big Investors, Big Banks, and Big Business are making money, so government tax revenues are at an all time high. Of course, individual taxes are up somewhat but, hey we are all one big happy collective family.
Fal wants taxes even higher, soak the rich until they flee to tax havens, that will fix everything. Actually, that is one reason we are struggling, big companies have relocated or merged to get offshore and not pay uncle sam a dime. Yeah, those higher taxes work great.
>The number of people on welfare is way up under Obama but thats good, because people have food and shelter, so they dont need no stinkin' job.
Here is where fal says income is up, no matter where it comes from or who has to pay the bill for moochers.
>Oh, and 'everybody' has health care. It's more expensive, deductibles are much higher, and some people like me pay a few thousand dollars a year more for things, that way, the wealth can be transferred from people that have a little money to others without the government having to take the blame for raising taxes, so that is good.
Yeah, putting a bunch of inept govt bureaucrats in charge of healthcare is a brilliant move. It never worked before, always leads to more corruption, inefficiency, and higher costs but maybe it will work this time when it never worked in the past? The 'bats think so. The people who have to pay the bill don't agree. Looks like scotus will scuttle it.
>Let's not forget foreign policy too. That is a real success under O. So who cares if we've lost Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, among others, to chaos and anarchy under radical madmen?
They used to proclaim that as his strong suit, the whole world loved him the media told us. Not so much any more. Iraq was stable under saddam, under obumble foreign policy care, 100x as many people get killed including americans, it costs us trillions and its unstable as hell. That is obumble's shining moment right there. He pulls disaster from the jaws of victory over and over.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21837834 - 06/21/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I once made a post, long ago, calling Obama 'The Shit Midas' maybe now is time to bring it back and say 'I told you so' because I think people raked me over the coals for it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21838174 - 06/21/15 05:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: can you ever respond to what people actually say rather than making up a straw man? Here is what we said:
I'm not saying the economy is good right now, or that Wall Street didn't dip their hand in the taxpayers wallet, but it's not nearly as bad as it was in 2008. Things aren't nearly as good as they should be, but aren't nearly as bad as they were in 08. Nobody said the economy is doing well. But it is FAR better than when Bush was in office in 2008.
And I'll say it one more time for good measure in the hopes that you'll actually listen: No one thinks the economy is great right now, but it's far better than it was when Bush left office.
Shrub was in office for many years besides 08, quit with the straw man.
Wow, even after the lengthy explanation above, you still prove your inability to read. We all said the economy improved since Obama took over, and everyone proved that it did. The economy fell apart under Bush, and it's getting better now while Obama is President. There's no strawman here - no one made a false claim about what you said in order to knock it down.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Even in much of 08 it was good but you pick one spot and say 'see how bad it was'
I guess you didn't read any of the links I provided above. The economy began to crash in 2007.
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: the economy was doing fabulous under Clinton. If you want to blame him for repealing Glass-Steagall at the end of his term, then yes, he is partly to blame for the future collapse of the economy.
"partly"??? he inherited a surplus from his predecessor, lets see who was that, some pub. He squandered the surplus, tried to take credit for it knowing a few fools would swallow that lie.
Wow, you're really showing off your ignorance here. Actually, Clinton inherited a deficit and turned it into a surplus:

Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: But we ARE recovering. Everyone's been showing you links to prove it, and you haven't been able to counter it with anything but your own fantasies
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/628-labor-force-participation-has-hovered-near-37-year-low-11-months 62.8%: Labor Force Participation Has Hovered Near 37-Year-Low for 11 Months
That's good news. The decrease, which started just after Bush took office, has finally stopped.
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Things aren't great, but they're far better than a depression. And yes, the Government deserves credit for preventing a disastrous depression
No depression so we should be dancing in the streets?
I'm glad we dodged a great depression.
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: which we know from past experience would have lasted until a massive stimulus bailed us out.
8 trillion dollars isn't enough stimulus to bring us back to a robust economy? Any fool could have thrown that much money around and the economy would be booming.
Once again, you brag about your ignorance. The stimulus wasn't even close to $8 trillion, and as you now know, that money prevented a Great Depression.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: ...gave it to the banks and the rich. Here you are rubber stamping his crimes whereas if a gop did it you would be screaming about it.
Wow, even more ignorance. The banks got loans, not free money. And I've argued many times, including this very thread, that Congress should do more to get the money to the middle class.
Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Do you realize business owners are making more than ever before? The problems you express are the result of Congress not doing anything to help get this wealth to the people that actually earned it. As I've said before, to fix the problems you just mentioned, Congress needs to implement things like minimum wage laws, higher taxes on the super wealthy, etc.
Who, Monsanto, apple, Microsoft, blackwater, the fortune 500? The average guy who you care nothing about is not doing so well.
Yes, that's what I just said. 
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Your answer is let them eat cake. You have your job packing boxes or whatever and don't care about anyone else. That's the trouble with moonbats, they are all theory and ignore the reality on the ground.
Once again, you prove your inability to read what I've said. I said Congress should be helping those people by increasing minimum wage, and increasing taxes on the rich to take the burden off the middle class.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
#21838189 - 06/21/15 05:55 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: I once made a post, long ago, calling Obama 'The Shit Midas' maybe now is time to bring it back and say 'I told you so' because I think people raked me over the coals for it.
Ah yes, the one where you said of Obama:
Quote:
Accomplishments: ZERO. Unless you like in your face facism and government rules being shoved up your ass.
Failures: I don't have the time to write a 650 page novel.
You had your ass handed to you in that thread.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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By the way, I honestly don't think Obama is a great President, because he panders too much to big money. I only defend him when people falsely accuse him of things.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Wow, fal, you used to be able to make intelligent sounding arguments even though you always lost in the end. Now you have descended to the word game level like enlil. This usually happens when you feel your back to the wall and are running out of ammo.
>We all said the economy improved since Obama took over, and everyone proved that it did.
No, we didn't all say that and it was not proven. You took one point on 08, a low point and used that as a reference and all you came up with was the stock market. We all know the market is doing well but not the man in the street. You keep ignoring that.
>The economy began to crash in 2007
Sez you. We could just as easily say the roots of the crash began in Clinton's term. Shrub was a dunce that has been already said.
>Clinton inherited a deficit and turned it into a surplus:
No such thing. You talk like he did it. All the bum did was spend every dollar he could and by luck a lot of money came in. If that had happened during a gop term, you would be twisting and squirming to show it was all due to the previous president. BTW it was a gop congress that produced the surplus, not the bum.
> The stimulus wasn't even close to $8 trillion, and as you now know, that money prevented a Great Depression.
The latest bum, obumbles, burned through much more than $8T. The national debt went up by that amount during his term so far. So he used up all that plus every dime that came in from taxes and so on. We had trillions in income during that time which all got spent plus we went into the hole by 8t. Are you now beginning to see the problem? Despite the biggest amount of spending in all of history, the economy is still limping along on life support. He not only spent more than any other president, he spent more than the last 2 or 3 combined.
If he had simply taken the money we wasted on overseas wars and handed it to every American, the economy would be booming. The bums would be broke again not being able to manage money, the rich would be richer and the average guy would be doing well, unlike now.
If he had taken a good chunk of that wasted money and spent it on infrastructure, the economy would be booming. Even a tard like bush could have spent the money better and he is a tard.
All you can come back with is lets raise taxes.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
#21839366 - 06/21/15 09:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: Wow, fal, you used to be able to make intelligent sounding arguments even though you always lost in the end. Now you have descended to the word game level like enlil. This usually happens when you feel your back to the wall and are running out of ammo.
Nice try, but here are the points I've proven and that you've failed to back up:
When did the economy collapse? Falcon91Wolvrn03: In 2007 or 2008. Evidence. Stonehenge: Either under Clinton or in 2009. Evidence? None Do Democrats have better economic results? Falcon91Wolvrn03: Yes. Evidence: Income by state and stock market gains by president. Stonehenge: No. Evidence: None Did Clinton start or end with a surplus? Falcon91Wolvrn03: Started with a deficit ended with a surplus. Evidence: https://files.shroomery.org/files/15-001/039307895-DeficitGDP.jpg Stonehenge: Started with a surplus and ended with a deficit. Evidence: You actually admitted you were wrong on this, but insist that Democratic presidents shouldn't be credited for the country's successes, only its failures. Has the economy improved under Obama? Falcon91Wolvrn03: Yes. Evidence: Google Stonehenge: No. Evidence: Labor Force Participation is the only stat that matters, even though unemployment is way down.
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Stonehenge said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: We all said the economy improved since Obama took over, and everyone proved that it did.
You took one point on 08, a low point and used that as a reference
When would you say Obama took over?!?!?
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Stonehenge said: We all know the market is doing well but not the man in the street. You keep ignoring that.
Quit lying. I've agreed with you on this many times, and said Congress needs to do something to ensure the money makes its way to Main Street.
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Stonehenge said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The stimulus wasn't even close to $8 trillion, and as you now know, that money prevented a Great Depression.
The latest bum, obumbles, burned through much more than $8T.
At least you realize you lost this argument and are changing the topic from stimulus spending to total spending.
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Stonehenge said: Despite the biggest amount of spending in all of history, the economy is still limping along on life support.
The economy was headed for a disastrous Great Depression, which the spending prevented. More spending would have helped the economy more (though it would also mean more deficits, which no one wants).
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Stonehenge said: If he had simply taken the money we wasted on overseas wars and handed it to every American, the economy would be booming.
If he had taken a good chunk of that wasted money and spent it on infrastructure, the economy would be booming.
Agreed.
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Stonehenge said: All you can come back with is lets raise taxes.
You said in your last post above that "by luck a lot of money came in" for Clinton. It wasn't "luck" - Clinton raised taxes. It's basic economics.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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THere were two major hits in the economy during Bush and Obamas term. One hit was towards the end of 2001, and was due to a) 911 and the uncertainty caused. You can track the u6 and see that U6 went from 8% to 10%. After that, the economy gradually tracked better until 2008, in which a huge hit occured. THis was NOT because of the wars, or Bushes spending, but it was because of a) gamed rigged system, i.e. the banking crisis and b) game rigged system 2, i.e. the housing bubble.
a) the banking crisis, was one result of the housing bubble. The other part of it was due to faulty regulation, a large part due to both republican AND democratic congresses.
b) the main part of the housing crisis, was mainly the result of democrat pressure and policy on housing, and the denial by the democrats AND the federal reserve that we were in a dangerous situation. (Barney Frank was key in letting the housing crisis fester, as the chairman of the senate finance committee.)
So, the crash of 2009 was NOT obama's fault. However, the tepid recovery was the result of not having any sound fiscal policy besides SPEND MORE.
The economy IS in worse shape now, for whatever reason. The U6 is really the key indicator. You can argue that spending prevented a depression, I can argue that painful, and short term austerity would have brought the economy back much faster.
What we have had instead is a gradually weak, long drawn out partial recovery that has resulted in an expanded government and an expanded welfare state.
http://www.portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate_u6.jsp
The graph says it all. I would say the crashes are the result of congressional policy, the poor recovery is the result of Obama. THis is just a good a theory as 'oh, he prevented a depression' Thats nonsense.
Current economic theory is moving in the direction that Keynesian economics in terms of deficit spending is only good in the very short term. After that it is harmful to the economy.
By the way, Reagan used U6 as the official measure of unemployment, not the fake U3.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
#21840202 - 06/22/15 12:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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starfire_xes said: THere were two major hits in the economy during Bush and Obamas term. One hit was towards the end of 2001, and was due to a) 911 and the uncertainty caused. After that, the economy gradually tracked better until 2008, in which a huge hit occured. THis was NOT because of the wars, or Bushes spending, but it was because of a) gamed rigged system, i.e. the banking crisis and b) game rigged system 2, i.e. the housing bubble.
a) the banking crisis, was one result of the housing bubble. The other part of it was due to faulty regulation, a large part due to both republican AND democratic congresses.
I agree.
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starfire_xes said: b) the main part of the housing crisis, was mainly the result of democrat pressure and policy on housing
This has been proven wrong MANY times in this forum. There was no regulations on the banks to make subprime loans to regular people - the pressure came from a desire to make a quick dollar and then sell the loans.
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starfire_xes said: So, the crash of 2009 was NOT obama's fault. However, the tepid recovery was the result of not having any sound fiscal policy besides SPEND MORE.
So what's your solution for getting out of recession, if not spending more???
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starfire_xes said: The economy IS in worse shape now, for whatever reason. The U6 is really the key indicator. You can argue that spending prevented a depression, I can argue that painful, and short term austerity would have brought the economy back much faster.
Empirical evidence has proven that austerity doesn't work and spending does.
The Economic Argument Is Over Austerity vs Stimulus What Have We Learned About Austerity Since the Great Recession?
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starfire_xes said: What we have had instead is a gradually weak, long drawn out partial recovery that has resulted in an expanded government and an expanded welfare state.
The recovery is going FAR faster than during the Great Depression, because the Government stepped in early. And the Great Depression only ended because of a massive Government stimulus.
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starfire_xes said: http://www.portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate_u6.jsp
The graph says it all.
It sure does. It shows things have been getting better every year since 2009.
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starfire_xes said: I would say the crashes are the result of congressional policy, the poor recovery is the result of Obama. THis is just a good a theory as 'oh, he prevented a depression' Thats nonsense.
It's what leading economists say. Do you prefer what college dropouts say (Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck, etc)?
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starfire_xes said: Current economic theory is moving in the direction that Keynesian economics in terms of deficit spending is only good in the very short term. After that it is harmful to the economy.
Because of the deficits that result from spending. That's why we need to increase taxes on the rich, so we're not all burdened by these high deficits.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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We need to close tax loopholes and cut spending is the answer. Why should the government grow at a rate several times greater than the inflation rate? You know what 'baseline budgeting' is? That is how the government has operated for years under both parties. Increase the federal budget 6% a year automatically.
What is the purpose of arbitrary tax increases on the rich? They already pay most of the taxes in the US.
And why doesnt government adjust its budget to its revenue? This goes on under democrats and R's alike.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
#21840379 - 06/22/15 01:51 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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starfire_xes said: What is the purpose of arbitrary tax increases on the rich? They already pay most of the taxes in the US.
It's to restore tax rates to what they were before Reagan slashed them and started the country down the deficit spending hole. Before he cut taxes, he should have figured out where to cut spending.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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