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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21856647 - 06/25/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

We sit at the crux of these two philosophies right now, in America. We have the Fascist right, and a few Socialists on the left. Our country is certainly headed toward Fascism, but Socialism may win the day.

You will not have your Libertarianism. You will have Fascism or Socialism.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I love how most of you people still can't manage to differentiate between systems of government and economic philosophies.




Systems of government and economic philosophies are often intertwined. Generally there isn't much distinction.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: psyconaught]
    #21856888 - 06/25/15 07:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
You advocate the destruction of our social safety net, public education, and laws preventing corporations from doing things that are detrimental to their workers and the environment. It's not terribly complicated.



no, no, and no. Try again.



So you're not really a libertarian then?  Or perhaps you are, but you disagree with all the nutty positions they have.  Then I guess I'm a libertarian too.  Maybe even a right wing extremist?  Or a fascist!


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21857733 - 06/25/15 10:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Theres a difference between a Libertarian and libertarian.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: psyconaught]
    #21857988 - 06/25/15 11:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

... Go on.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21858165 - 06/26/15 12:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

A hard "L" Libertarian is someone who is a member of the official party, follows all official party points etc. A soft "l" libertarian is more of a political philosophy. I boil it down to "can this issue be solved with less government/more freedom rather than the opposite". And there is definitely a spectrum as well, there are Rand Paul libertarians who recognize the need for government in certain areas, and there are the minarchist breed who want to privatize everything down to the police and fire departments.

Now personally i believe we as a society should have a social safety net, though its far too lenient at the moment, no one should get something for free, it should have to be payed back in some way. I still want publicly funded police and fire departments and roads. But we need more of an emphasis on personal responsibility as a society, the government shouldn't be protecting the people from themselves. Let adults make their own decisions.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: psyconaught]
    #21858228 - 06/26/15 12:58 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
I boil it down to "can this issue be solved with less government/more freedom rather than the opposite".

Now personally i believe we as a society should have a social safety net, though its far too lenient at the moment, no one should get something for free, it should have to be payed back in some way.  I still want publicly funded police and fire departments and roads. But we need more of an emphasis on personal responsibility as a society, the government shouldn't be protecting the people from themselves. Let adults make their own decisions.



I agree with everything you just said, except that our social safety net is "far too lenient at the moment".  Can you explain why you feel that way?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21858245 - 06/26/15 01:06 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

He thinks the government should provide short-term loans instead of giving people things.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21858255 - 06/26/15 01:11 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
He thinks the government should provide short-term loans instead of giving people things.



Even so, I'd be interested to know what things the Government gives people that crosses the line.

I think many people overestimate what the Government gives out, so I'm curious what crosses the line.  Food stamps?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: psyconaught]
    #21859106 - 06/26/15 09:29 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>A soft "l" libertarian is more of a political philosophy. I boil it down to "can this issue be solved with less government/more freedom rather than the opposite". And there is definitely a spectrum as well, there are Rand Paul libertarians who recognize the need for government in certain areas

A good analysis

>Now personally i believe we as a society should have a social safety net, though its far too lenient at the moment, no one should get something for free, it should have to be payed back in some way. I still want publicly funded police and fire departments and roads. But we need more of an emphasis on personal responsibility as a society, the government shouldn't be protecting the people from themselves. Let adults make their own decisions.

Lets see the moon bats find something wrong with that.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21859131 - 06/26/15 09:35 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Lets see the moon bats find something wrong with that.



I already said I agreed with it, except perhaps that our social safety net is "far too lenient at the moment".  I think most people overestimate what the Government gives out, and I'm curious if you share that point of view and if so, what they are giving out that they shouldn't.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21859231 - 06/26/15 09:55 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
He thinks the government should provide short-term loans instead of giving people things.



Even so, I'd be interested to know what things the Government gives people that crosses the line.

I think many people overestimate what the Government gives out, so I'm curious what crosses the line.  Food stamps?



I'd like to see a sort of flat payment given out instead of the various agencies and programs we have at the moment. Similar to the negative income tax proposed by Milton Friedman. And it should always have to be payed back in one way or another, either through work programs or withholdings from future earnings, it should only be allowed to go on for a limited amount of time as well. My whole family was on welfare growing up so i'm fairly familiar with the systems, at least in the states where i lived.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21859514 - 06/26/15 11:04 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>A soft "l" libertarian is more of a political philosophy. I boil it down to "can this issue be solved with less government/more freedom rather than the opposite". And there is definitely a spectrum as well, there are Rand Paul libertarians who recognize the need for government in certain areas

A good analysis

>Now personally i believe we as a society should have a social safety net, though its far too lenient at the moment, no one should get something for free, it should have to be payed back in some way. I still want publicly funded police and fire departments and roads. But we need more of an emphasis on personal responsibility as a society, the government shouldn't be protecting the people from themselves. Let adults make their own decisions.

Lets see the moon bats find something wrong with that.




My problem with that is simple. You can try to define Libertarian however you want, but it is already a coherent philosophy. Just because the tea partiers are scattered all over the philosophical map doesn't mean that 'libertarian' means what you 'feel it means'. :wink:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: psyconaught]
    #21859612 - 06/26/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I don't have a problem with a negative income tax.

Do you think your family could afford to pay back the welfare they received without financial hardship?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21859725 - 06/26/15 11:56 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Do you think your family could afford to pay back the welfare they received without financial hardship?



My father absolutely could pay it back. My mother and her extended family however could not, however that has to do with the fact that they were/are drug addicts, alcoholics, and avoid working at every chance they get.

Growing up with divorced parents was very interesting because i got to see how two very different ethics played out. My father lost everything in the financial crash because he was in the mortgage industry and at the same time my mother stole all his money (long drawn out divorce story that is irrelevant). He used welfare as a temporary crutch to help take care of his children and got off it as soon as he could. My mother on the other hand has worked maybe a total of a few months through her entire life and is continually gaming the system to get more money/benefits so she doesnt have to get  a job.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21862451 - 06/27/15 01:57 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
We sit at the crux of these two philosophies right now, in America. We have the Fascist right, and a few Socialists on the left. Our country is certainly headed toward Fascism, but Socialism may win the day.

You will not have your Libertarianism. You will have Fascism or Socialism.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I love how most of you people still can't manage to differentiate between systems of government and economic philosophies.




Systems of government and economic philosophies are often intertwined. Generally there isn't much distinction.




Woof is wrong.  We will have totalitarian government but it wont be Fascism or Socialism.  We will have State-Capitalism/Socialism/Cronyism....why do you think Obama double down on  most of Bushes policies?  BEcause all the estalishment includin R's and D's, all want State Cronyism.  That's what the Tpp is all about.  And why bitch about Republicans?  THey are giving Obama everything he wants now that Hairbrained Reed is out of the game and can't block anything.

And what Republican wants to take away grannies insurance?  That's an MSNBC talking point.  SS will be tapped in a couple of years, and some republicans wanted to implement methods so that we can even have social security. 

I really want to know how being responsible about the budget and wanting to ensure that ss will remain solvent is throwing granny over the cliff.

I mean, these endless bullshit talking points are just crap rhetoric.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21862498 - 06/27/15 02:24 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

There's supposed to be about $2 trillion in the SS trust fund, but it's been pissed away over the years by both Dems and Reps and replaced by IOU's. :frown:


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21863302 - 06/27/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>Woof is wrong.

I think he is just trolling these days.

>why do you think Obama double down on  most of Bushes policies?

Because he is a lying cunt who did the opposite of what he promised?

>And what Republican wants to take away grannies insurance?  That's an MSNBC talking point.  SS will be tapped in a couple of years, and some republicans wanted to implement methods so that we can even have social security.

The left likes to make up shit to scare themselves with. SS will not technically be tapped in a couple years, but as canard said, its all worthless iou's.

>I really want to know how being responsible about the budget and wanting to ensure that ss will remain solvent is throwing granny over the cliff.

The big spending politicians are throwing granny off the cliff, mostly dem but also lots of gop too. Obumble spent our fortune fighting pointless wars overseas and taking care of his cronies. The moonbats say he is not perfect but better than gop, somehow. They would vote for a stinking pile of crap if it had the d label, some say they did just that in 08.

Why is it that when some totally horrible bill comes along like patriot act, freedom act, tpp, etc one side or another claims to be totally against it but enough of each party crosses over each time to get it passed? Funny how that always is. It reminds me of pro wrestling, just put on a show of opposition for the crowd and the predetermined winner always wins.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21863348 - 06/27/15 09:29 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Uh, Afghanistan and Iraq were initiated under Bush, you know. Obama has tried to wind things down in both of those places, but has kept some troops there at the request of the Governments there. Now the Reps are banging the war drums yet again over the ISIS mess.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: Le_Canard]
    #21863644 - 06/27/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Le_Canard said:
Uh, Afghanistan and Iraq were initiated under Bush, you know. Obama has tried to wind things down in both of those places, but has kept some troops there at the request of the Governments there. Now the Reps are banging the war drums yet again over the ISIS mess.




Yes, shrub started Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I don't see anyone defending his actions. Does that give a free pass to obumble to keep them going as long as possible? Was he obligated to follow shub's policies or could he go his own way? His decision to reverse shub's pullout of Iraq was on his head, not bush's. No one is making excuses for shrub so don't make them for obumble.

>Obama has tried to wind things down in both of those places

He begged Karzai in Afghanistan to let troops stay but was told no and had to give huge bribes to get permission. Your story is false.

>but has kept some troops there at the request of the Governments there

The puppet govt in Iraq? It stands as long as we prop it up. Obumble has fomented war all over the middle east, also in yemen and Syria plus other places.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obama gets the TPP shoved up his ass... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21871665 - 06/29/15 01:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
And what Republican wants to take away grannies insurance?  That's an MSNBC talking point.  SS will be tapped in a couple of years, and some republicans wanted to implement methods so that we can even have social security.



One party wants to implement methods to keep social security as it is, the other party wants to implement methods to cut a bunch of it away.

The fact is that social security can EASILY be saved, just by making the wealthy pay the same 6.2% that everyone else pays.  In fact, that would create such an excess, that rates would have to be cut for everyone.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I really want to know how being responsible about the budget and wanting to ensure that ss will remain solvent is throwing granny over the cliff.



Taking away from granny is throwing her off the cliff.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I mean, these endless bullshit talking points are just crap rhetoric.



Given what I've just told you, please explain how these talking points are bullshit.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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