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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21801253 - 06/13/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Make sure you always have a layer of substrate over exposed grains. Exposed grains are a major cause of drying out and trich
RR

Which has never happened to me ever


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Offlinehamloaf
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #21801267 - 06/13/15 09:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So, you protect "raw grain spawn" (lol) by exposing a whole layer of colonized grain spawn??  Have you even ever done a frosting layer, let alone know what a frosting layer is??  I think not  :lol:

Yea, again talk to me when you have experience in the issues you try to speak upon.  A "frosting layer" is covering the finished bulk sub with a layer of freshly colonized grain spawn, NOT bulk sub materials.  Fucking hell!  A "pseudo casing layer" is the term for the layering of bulk substrate materials to your freshly generated bulk substrate. 


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: hamloaf]
    #21801329 - 06/13/15 09:28 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

fahtster used to do a layering method and a method "substrate as casing"

if you do frost the top with a layer of spawn and apply a "substrate as casing method"(what stare was talking about) at the same time. the speed is very quick. i can get fruits in 12-13 days from spawn using that method. but i find the yield to be a little lower until the 2nd flush where it makes up for it. if i put my normal depth casing of 1/4" i get smaller fruits. if i up it to 1/2-1/3" ill get better yield. but it does add a day or two to when you pick fruits.

i do like casing tubs normally, non cased tubs and substrate as casing tubs. i tend to use all of these methods when i get bored alternating between them.

the layering of bulk substrates with substrate/spawn/substrate/spawn i find takes more time and in the end i get the same end result as just mixing it all up. it takes me about half the time to spawn one tub mixing the substrate and spawn together rather than layering.

even doing the substrate as casing method with one top layer of a quart or two ends up adding about an extra hour or two hours to my spawn session. ive been running some trials using the substrate as casing method for the last 6 months. its a fun method. although i think im done with it for now because it takes extra work. if you run more than a few tubs, that extra work builds up.

you can get good results either method, but i choose the easier method. which is mixing up the substrate and spawn directly.


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Edited by eatyualive (06/13/15 09:36 AM)


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: eatyualive]
    #21801340 - 06/13/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Save the frosting layer for yer birthday cakes.


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: hamloaf]
    #21801354 - 06/13/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hamloaf said:
So, you protect "raw grain spawn" (lol) by exposing a whole layer of colonized grain spawn??  Have you even ever done a frosting layer, let alone know what a frosting layer is??  I think not  :lol:

Yea, again talk to me when you have experience in the issues you try to speak upon.  A "frosting layer" is covering the finished bulk sub with a layer of freshly colonized grain spawn, NOT bulk sub materials.  Fucking hell!  A "pseudo casing layer" is the term for the layering of bulk substrate materials to your freshly generated bulk substrate. 



I've seen the term frosting layer used to describe both a layer of spawn and a layer of substrate. I think you guys are really just arguing semantics.


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: MudaFuka] * 1
    #21801363 - 06/13/15 09:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Nah, Think folks get their terms mixed up like how "casing" anymore is incorrectly used to describe spawning to bulk.  Like how the term "50/50" is now confused, and used to describe damion's coir tek and spawning to coir ect.  When I was a new spore back in '08, covering your finished bulk substrate with a layer of grain spawn was taught, employed, and referred to as a "frosting layer".


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: hamloaf]
    #21801487 - 06/13/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah frosting has always been understood to me as a layer of pure spawn, which, just sounds stupid as fuck.


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: Inocuole]
    #21801577 - 06/13/15 10:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

frosted flakes......"theyrrrrrrrr grrrrrrreat"


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: hamloaf]
    #21801627 - 06/13/15 10:22 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hamloaf said:
Nah, Think folks get their terms mixed up like how "casing" anymore is incorrectly used to describe spawning to bulk.  Like how the term "50/50" is now confused, and used to describe damion's coir tek and spawning to coir ect.  When I was a new spore back in '08, covering your finished bulk substrate with a layer of grain spawn was taught, employed, and referred to as a "frosting layer".



Like I said semantics.


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: MudaFuka]
    #21802152 - 06/13/15 11:25 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MudaFuka said:
Quote:

hamloaf said:
So, you protect "raw grain spawn" (lol) by exposing a whole layer of colonized grain spawn??  Have you even ever done a frosting layer, let alone know what a frosting layer is??  I think not  :lol:

Yea, again talk to me when you have experience in the issues you try to speak upon.  A "frosting layer" is covering the finished bulk sub with a layer of freshly colonized grain spawn, NOT bulk sub materials.  Fucking hell!  A "pseudo casing layer" is the term for the layering of bulk substrate materials to your freshly generated bulk substrate. 



I've seen the term frosting layer used to describe both a layer of spawn and a layer of substrate. I think you guys are really just arguing semantics.



Indeed 5+ years ago it was spawn now nearly everyone calls it using more substrate to cover grain

Just like years ago a casing was a bulk sub. People still say casing though mostly new users


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21802443 - 06/13/15 12:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I've always just called layering the top layer of mixed spawn/sub as patching, but I don't think that's an actual term. In any case, I've done most of the things we're talking about and didn't notice any differences in either. Small sample size and I probably don't have the eye to notice shit either way.


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: stareatclouds]
    #21803049 - 06/13/15 04:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

It's not "just semantics", and I find that excuse is just that, an excuse.  It is important to resist interchanging terminology in order to communicate EXACTLY what you mean, especially when it comes to giving advice to the less experienced.

A casing is a casing, it's NOT a substrate, and all my years I've NEVER heard that it acceptable to call one the other.  They are two completely different things, but when people begin to loosely interchange them, whether by accident (been there done that ;?), confusion, or just get plain laziness, it degrades our ability to communicate exactly what we're talking about with simple, succinct words/phrases.  IOW I don't want to use the word "substrate" in a sentence and then, in order to avoid confusion, have to follow up with paragraph just to clarify my meaning.

In science this is a well-followed practice, and yes, even though this is as much a hobby as a profession (for some), imho folks should make an effort to adhere to the same practice for everyone's sake, if not for just the newbs among us.

As my grandad used to say, "God is in the details, but so is the devil."


Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 04:40 PM)


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21803132 - 06/13/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Some examples of simple definitions (by no means exhaustive) for instance:

Spawn - The colonized medium used to inoculate the substrate.
Spawning - The act of mixing fully colonized spawn medium into a substrate to inoculate it.
Substrate - The medium to which the spawn is added in the production of mushrooms.
Bulk Sub - A tech utilizing a larger quantity of spawn/substrate mixture, often in tubs or trays, for "bulk" production.
Cakes - A medium usually combining spawn and substrate together in order to simplify the cultivation process.
Birthing - Removing a fully colonized cake from its container.
Casing - The final/top layer, placed over the substrate/spawn mixture. 

Well, I can see this opening up an entire can of worms, lol.


Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 05:14 PM)


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21803159 - 06/13/15 05:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fearnoevil said:
Some examples of simple definitions (by no means exhaustive) for instance:

Spawn - The colonized medium used to inoculate the substrate.
Spawning - The act of mixing fully colonized spawn medium into a substrate to inoculate it.
Substrate - The medium to which the spawn is added in the production of mushrooms.
Bulk Sub - A tech utilizing a larger quantity of spawn/substrate mixture, often in tubs or trays, for "bulk" production.
Cakes - A medium usually combining spawn and substrate together in order to simplify the cultivation process.
Birthing - Removing a fully colonized cake from its container.
Casing - The final/top layer, placed over the substrate/spawn mixture. 

Well, I can see this opening up an entire can of worms, lol.




Maybe not entirely wrong but that's not exactly right either if you want to get down to brass tacks


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: RyeJar]
    #21803200 - 06/13/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'm pretty sure a substrate is more general than that. Like the agar I drop my spores onto is a substrate.


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21803241 - 06/13/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Ryejar, I know as soon as I posted it that it was probably going to be a contentious issue, to say the least, lol, but one thing I was attempting was to keep the definitions as basic as possible so as to be broadly inclusive of the wide variety of techs which would fall into each category.  I mean you could easily write reams of information following each word if you wanted to be thorough, but that certainly wasn't my aim.

And believe me when I say I don't consider myself in any way to be the final arbiter,  :uhoh: , just trying to help standardize the lexicon a bit ;?D, so feel free to correct anything I got wrong or missed.  It should definitely be a community effort, imo... hmmm, maybe we could start a WikiShrooms, lol. ;?D


Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 06:13 PM)


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21803251 - 06/13/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fearnoevil said:
hmmm, maybe we could start a WikiShrooms, lol. ;?D




:nicesmile:


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21803290 - 06/13/15 06:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Stareatclouds, I can't remember if the term is used as such in microbiology, but in mushroom cultivation I've simply heard it called agar medium, and here the lines get blurred.  I guess we have to decide if we want to keep this as scientific as possible, which has distinct disadvantages where the uninitiated are concerned, or should we try to define them more to fit what has become a defacto standard in the decades since this technology/hobby/art came into being.


Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 06:08 PM)


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21803317 - 06/13/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I don't remember a lot of terminology changing since TMC and GGMM but it's been a while since I re read them


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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: RyeJar]
    #21803337 - 06/13/15 06:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Probably not for the most part, but the one's I listed are some of the more common ones that get swapped the most or cause the most confusion, for newbs at least.  And while a lot of us may have read the texts, a list of simple and clear definitions might help, idk.  I don't remember the forum, but I thought I've seen it done somewhere, so it's not an original idea.  BUT, there's no WikiShrooms.org, lol, so if someone knows how to start one, that might be fun and useful ;?D


Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 06:19 PM)


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