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ShroominMe
Stranger
Registered: 05/03/15
Posts: 525
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Layering vs Mixing Substrate
#21795826 - 06/12/15 02:11 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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In RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms! video he demonstrates putting down a layer of sub, a layer of colonized myc, sub, myc and topping with sub.
I've seen others post here who also layer.
I've always mixed, with great success.
Does it matter whether you layer or mix? What is your experience?
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: ShroominMe]
#21795855 - 06/12/15 02:26 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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-------------------- Fail to plan and you plan to fail. Enter the Ban Lottery
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2shoes
The anti-agar



Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 3,124
Loc: Not in a SAB
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: Buck513]
#21795891 - 06/12/15 02:43 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I mix but that's me. Ive never layered so I can't speak for that.
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ShroominMe
Stranger
Registered: 05/03/15
Posts: 525
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: Buck513]
#21795899 - 06/12/15 02:50 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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WTF Quote:
Buck513 said:

WTF?
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: ShroominMe]
#21795901 - 06/12/15 02:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I can see one advantage to layering. According to violet who I tend trust, cubes like to fruit from an area low in nutrients (ie bulk sub or casing.)
If you mix, then cover with a "casing" layer of bulk sub on top, it seems the inocculation would be pretty poor. With an entire layer of grains under it, it seems less risky and probably faster. Perhaps a better strategy for avoiding exposed grains ontop. I would guess that the colonization of the entire sub is slightly slower.
I have no experience with it though.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Grey
⇜ ✯ ⇝



Registered: 11/06/14
Posts: 6,223
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I mix most of my sub/spawn first, then and even layer of spawn over that, then an even layer of substrate over that. The top layer is usually just enough to cover the grains. Mixed subs colonize pretty quick.
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AMU Q&A If you don't have a plan of your own, you'll become a part of somebody else's.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: I can see one advantage to layering. According to violet who I tend trust, cubes like to fruit from an area low in nutrients (ie bulk sub or casing.)
If you mix, then cover with a "casing" layer of bulk sub on top, it seems the inocculation would be pretty poor. With an entire layer of grains under it, it seems less risky and probably faster. Perhaps a better strategy for avoiding exposed grains ontop. I would guess that the colonization of the entire sub is slightly slower.
I have no experience with it though.
That's more an advantage to using a casing layer or a top layer of coir. Layering the spawn isn't really a good idea no matter how you spin it.
I'm sure some will contest, but I really don't see the point of a layer of just spawn, that's like a layer where water has to slow down to get through, why do that? Layering bulk sub, sure, that makes sense, but spawn? 
What advantage could there possibly be?
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Buck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: ShroominMe]
#21796218 - 06/12/15 06:57 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShroominMe said: WTF Quote:
Buck513 said:

WTF? 
-------------------- Fail to plan and you plan to fail. Enter the Ban Lottery
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: Buck513]
#21796702 - 06/12/15 10:00 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Layering a substrate is pretty pointless. RR layers his straw baskets to keep grain from the airholes. That's the only reason to layer.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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fearnoevil
Stranger than you think ;?D

Registered: 06/07/15
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: 36fuckin5]
#21800263 - 06/13/15 12:14 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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As 36fuckin5 mentioned, the idea started from straw techs, which is easier to simply layer due to the structure of straw (really hard to mix like you would any other type of bulk sub). Then like a lot of things, people didn't understand the "why" to it and just transfered the tech to bulk subs.
Reminds me of this thing with coffee pots I've heard some old-timers (not unlike myself, lol) talk about. Some say it's best to just rinse a coffee pot and not scrub it to clean cuz you're taking the "seasoning" or flavoring or whatever out of the pot, lol. But actually it's just a carry-over from cast iron ware, like a skillet, which you actually don't want to scrub clean due to the fact that, if done properly, it has been seasoned and will rust if you do. But yeah, NOT true about coffee pots, that shit just makes your coffee bitter (course maybe that's the way some folk like it ;?)
Anyway, from my XP and observations, there's no advantage to layering and a few disadvantages. First is the difficulty especially layering the spawn because while it might be easy to spread the first layer of substrate, the next layer of spawn is hard to spread evenly and you'd likely not get a nice even consistency, and the same for each layer thereafter.
Second, this just takes too much time. Best to work quickly and just mix it thoroughly with your hands, even it out, and close it up.
Third, related to the second, it's just too much work, you're making a simple job far more complicated, imo.
Fourth, spawn evenly spread throughout a substrate will colonize much quicker that layers will, I'm willing to bet money on it, lol.
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: fearnoevil]
#21800286 - 06/13/15 12:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've done it both ways. The only real difference is the mixed sub colonises faster. RR will say differently but most of us have been mixing our bulk subs for quite some time now with good results.
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ShroominMe
Stranger
Registered: 05/03/15
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Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: MudaFuka]
#21800433 - 06/13/15 01:23 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MudaFuka said: I've done it both ways. The only real difference is the mixed sub colonises faster. RR will say differently but most of us have been mixing our bulk subs for quite some time now with good results.
That's been my experience. My last bulk fully colonized in only five days 
Thanks for the feedback!
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,887
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: MudaFuka]
#21800462 - 06/13/15 01:40 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
MudaFuka said: I've done it both ways. The only real difference is the mixed sub colonises faster. RR will say differently but most of us have been mixing our bulk subs for quite some time now with good results.
What about mixing all jars but one and layering the last one with a thin patch of sub on top?
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ShroominMe
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Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Quote:
stareatclouds said: What about mixing all jars but one and layering the last one with a thin patch of sub on top?
Hmm... what do you think would be the advantage of doing that?
It's all about vector points and increasing the surface area of colonized myc to uncolonized sub to speed up colonization, yes?
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fearnoevil
Stranger than you think ;?D

Registered: 06/07/15
Posts: 93
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: ShroominMe]
#21800679 - 06/13/15 03:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Vector points?
But agreed, the goal of thoroughly mixing spawn into the substrate material increases surface area exposure of the colonized grain to the surrounding medium and essentially decreases the distance the mycelium needs to grow before the entire substrate is colonized.
With alternating layers of spawn divided by layers of substrate, you have reduced the efficiency of the mycelium by essentially "segregating" it from the substrate and creating larger distances for it to travel to reach full colonization.
You could think of the mixed spawn/sub as relay race where individual participants only have to run one leg of a race, whereas the layered spawn/sub is more like a group of runners all having to run an entire marathon. But this analogy is only accurate as it relates to the speed of colonization and nothing to do with whether the myc gets tuckered out having to run further, lol ;?D
Edited by fearnoevil (06/13/15 04:26 AM)
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: fearnoevil]
#21800849 - 06/13/15 05:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Like I said, you DO NOT want areas of your substrate to be holding less water than others, and any spawn layers will do just that. Each grain being surrounded by a reservoir of field capacity bulk/coir/poo is as perfect as it can get.
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles



Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Quote:
MudaFuka said: I've done it both ways. The only real difference is the mixed sub colonises faster. RR will say differently but most of us have been mixing our bulk subs for quite some time now with good results.
What about mixing all jars but one and layering the last one with a thin patch of sub on top?
I did this for a while. It worked really well with clones but kind of sucked for MS. The top layer of sub gives a nice low nutrient surface for fruiting and acts as a built in casing layer.
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Grey
⇜ ✯ ⇝



Registered: 11/06/14
Posts: 6,223
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Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Quote:
MudaFuka said: I've done it both ways. The only real difference is the mixed sub colonises faster. RR will say differently but most of us have been mixing our bulk subs for quite some time now with good results.
What about mixing all jars but one and layering the last one with a thin patch of sub on top?
That's what I do. I save about half a quart of sub/spawn and layer that on top of the mixed spawn/sub. I don't use a lot of spawn, but I make sure it's even across the surface before I add the top layer which is thin as well. I would only use a quart of each on a 66qt. mono, not any more.
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AMU Q&A If you don't have a plan of your own, you'll become a part of somebody else's.
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hamloaf
Loaf of Fam.


Registered: 12/23/09
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Loc: Oklahoma.
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: Grey]
#21801222 - 06/13/15 08:59 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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using a layer of spawn in the fashion you all are describing is known in the industry as a "frosting layer". Back in the day-day, frosting layers were industry standard until the realization struck that frosting layering is a good way to dry your grains out, and create a huge vector for contamination.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Layering vs Mixing Substrate [Re: hamloaf]
#21801239 - 06/13/15 09:04 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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It was not having a frosting layer that worried people about grains being able to dry out and lead to contamination. The frosting was to protect raw grain spawn.
Either way I've layered a couple times and its not as cool as mixing to me. Save the "frosting" for a true casing or late casing.
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