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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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C. botulinum
    #2163208 -

I was just wondering if anyone has ever heard of anyone getting botulism from shrooms, the reason I ask is Ive seen several people who prepare tons of jars at once and dont use them until later. They seal the cap with no holes and many of them dont use a pressure cooker. Since the spores are ubiquitous I dont see why they wouldnt germinate. This might belong in the contams forum.


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Re: C. botulinum [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2164925 -

I think the risk of botulism is quite low, though certainly not impossible. Most teks, whether using 1/2 pt. jars or quarts, allow for some degree of air exchange. Filter disks, imperfect metal-metal seal on the PF jars. Clostridium does not do very well when there is enough air exchange going on. The best situation for this organism is an air-tight seal and incomplete sterilization. It isn't impossible, though. Botulism has been associated with people putting fresh garlic in olive oil. There is enough of an anaerobic environment at the bottom of a jar of olive oil to favor Clostridium.
Bacillus, i.e. 'wet-spot' has more aerobic species, and indeed we see many more Bacillus contam representatives in mushroom grain jars.

Just my opinion; again I wouldn't say it's impossible. But a point. . .even if clostridium were to colonize a jar, the jar would somehow have to support enough mycelial growth to warrant birthing/spawning. . .the mycelium would have to NOT have remediated the toxin, perhaps assimilating it in the fruits in order for someone to get 'botulism from shrooms' [you don't eat substrate].

Many factors seem to indicate this as a very remote potential problem, but I'd like to hear some others' opinions.

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Re: C. botulinum [Re: Suntzu]
    #2164971 -

I am glad you responded. My opinion is that your opinion is to be trusted.

Can you explain how it is that C. botulinum has caused food poisoning in canned goods? I figured the sterilization that occurs in the canning process is enough to kill any of the bacteria and even the spores if present. Perhaps it is the one spore in a million that survives or perhaps poor canning technique.

Joshua


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Re: C. botulinum [Re: Joshua]
    #2165452 -

Hey Joshua;  Thanks for the compliment, but a lot of people here know a lot more about this than I do.  I used to work with someone who did graduate work in food microbiology, she was a real expert.  From what I understand, the vast majority of food-borne botulism cases are from home canning jobs.  Botulism is very rare in industrial preparations, though not unheard of.  Home canning is often just boiling jars for a period of time, no pressure.  To reduce the risk of this non-pressure cooking method requires strict attention to boiling times and altitude adjustments.  One also needs to check for canning integrity [concave lids, no leaks, etc.]  Several areas the average idiot can overlook. 

Even then, pressure cooking is generally acknowledged as the best way to avoid risk.  Interestingly, the botulism toxin is destroyed by heat.  More interestingly, some people actually inject the toxin in their wrinkled eyelids  :wink: 

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Re: C. botulinum [Re: Suntzu]
    #2166220 -

I have heard of other applications of the toxin as well. It seems one side effect that these beauty treatments have had is the reduction of headaches in the recipients of the treatment.

Joshua


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The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"

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Re: C. botulinum [Re: Joshua]
    #2167120 -

Botulism would only be in improperly sterilized jars, but I guess it's possible, though unlikely. Just watch out for a "cheesy" smell in the jars.

--
Micro


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Re: C. botulinum [Re: micro]
    #2169042 -

Most botulism poisoning is a result from food intoxication with the butylotoxin produced by growth of the endospores after cooking, not from the ingestion of the organism itself. If I'm not mistaken C. botulinum is a Grm.-, obligate anaerobic rod and the toxin itself is an endotoxin making both quite susptible to destruction by heat. The endospores it produces are tough little bastards that even after heating (though not autocalving and probably not after PC'ing) and when introduced into the right environment will germinate. The inside of a jar is too aerobic to promote growth if you PC being that there is no other aerobic microbes to create an environment anaerobic enough to faciltate germination, even if there was I find this scenario very unlikely, although certainly not impossible, given that you or your friends are just pasteurizing the jars. Personally I would worry about all the other nasty Grm.+ microbes that can take the heat and won't get their ass out tha' kitchen. Just my opinion.  :rolleyes:

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Re: C. botulinum [Re: Flux]
    #2172628 -

Clostridium=gram+  :wink:

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Re: C. botulinum [Re: Suntzu]
    #2179374 -

Quote:
Clostridium=gram+

  Damnit Damnit Damnit, I was just thinking about this post today, looked at it and was like what the fuck was I thinking :shake:? I was hoping to correct myself before anyone else saw that. Fuck  :mad2:


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