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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 43 minutes, 11 seconds
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A new Psilocybe from Germany 3
#21787620 - 06/10/15 09:57 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Discovery of a new caerulescent Psilocybe mushroom in Germany: Psilocybe germanica sp.nov.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1002/dta.1795
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Anglerfish
hearing things



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,644
Loc: Norvegr
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Interesting read, thanks! And no pellicle?
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SatanicShroomer
Anti-Cosmic Chaosophist



Registered: 05/17/14
Posts: 512
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
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That's awesome! That is for posting this. (You should've included some tits, but we'll give you a pass )
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"The good Reverend McCoy speaks. Few listen, even fewer understand..."
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SatanicShroomer
Anti-Cosmic Chaosophist



Registered: 05/17/14
Posts: 512
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
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*thanks for posting
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"The good Reverend McCoy speaks. Few listen, even fewer understand..."
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HamiltonJoe
Sub Bus



Registered: 04/27/13
Posts: 328
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Oh baby!!
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 43 minutes, 11 seconds
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: HamiltonJoe]
#21788107 - 06/10/15 12:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anglerfish said: Interesting read, thanks! And no pellicle?
A lot of Psilocybes don't have much of a pellicle.
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doctorghosty
is the name of me



Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 11,420
Loc: North GA, God's fav
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Wow, those are gorgeous.
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: doctorghosty]
#21788260 - 06/10/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very cool! I wonder how something like this can be around for 10's of thousands of year and yet no one noticed it until 2014.
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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doctorghosty
is the name of me



Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 11,420
Loc: North GA, God's fav
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Quote:
maynardjameskeenan said: Very cool! I wonder how something like this can be around for 10's of thousands of year and yet no one noticed it until 2014.
It had been dormant for years and then some asshat raked the entire forest floor and stirred up the spores.
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: doctorghosty]
#21788390 - 06/10/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Badass! Those looks gnarly
those azzies look crazy too (labeled A)
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Ran-D



Registered: 12/19/10
Posts: 16,313
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: doctorghosty]
#21788532 - 06/10/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
doctorghosty said:
Quote:
maynardjameskeenan said: Very cool! I wonder how something like this can be around for 10's of thousands of year and yet no one noticed it until 2014.
It had been dormant for years and then some asshat raked the entire forest floor and stirred up the spores.

It was Alan.
Edited by Ran-D (06/10/15 02:10 PM)
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 43 minutes, 11 seconds
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Ran-D]
#21791423 - 06/11/15 01:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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So....Does anyone see any problems with this paper?
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: So....Does anyone see any problems with this paper?
I have not read it yet, i will tomorrow...
im assuming you know something?
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Anglerfish
hearing things



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,644
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 3 hours, 49 minutes
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: So....Does anyone see any problems with this paper?
Is there something amiss? Something perhaps regarding the apparent occurrence of P. azurescens in Germany, which, as far as I know, do not grow wild in Germany? I've only skimmed through the paper, though.
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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There's a serious lack of taxonomically relevant detail in this paper (not to mention no genetic work). The argument that this is a new species is tenuous at best. They sound more like something in the Psilocybe serbica group to me.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: TimmiT]
#21792177 - 06/11/15 08:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was thinking the same, what about micro shots... not even one micrograph.
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Heyowana
Hex10 line2


Registered: 04/01/14
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Joust]
#21792216 - 06/11/15 08:58 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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A wood grower with a strong blueing reaction that contains no psilocin. That's pretty weird.Bit xenophobic to call it P.germanica when it has only been observed in parks growing on wood chips and bark. Would be interesting to find out where the mulch came from. I wonder if it's unique stipe would behave the same if they got it to fruit on agar? Never the less a neat find. Quite high in psilocybin as well.
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Viridis420

Registered: 04/12/14
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Heyowana]
#21792309 - 06/11/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Anglerfish
hearing things



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,644
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 3 hours, 49 minutes
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Joust]
#21792351 - 06/11/15 09:49 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
TimmiT said: There's a serious lack of taxonomically relevant detail in this paper (not to mention no genetic work). The argument that this is a new species is tenuous at best. They sound more like something in the Psilocybe serbica group to me.
Quote:
Joust said: I was thinking the same, what about micro shots... not even one micrograph.

Looking at it again these things strike me as quite weird. Also the weight put into the measuring of potency seems unusal.
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maynardjameskeenan
The white stipes



Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 16,391
Loc: 'Merica
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: So....Does anyone see any problems with this paper?
Why do they assume this is a native species and not something introduced?
-------------------- May you be filled with loving kindness. May you be well. May you be peaceful and at ease. May you be happy. AMU Q&A
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 43 minutes, 11 seconds
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So....No mycobank number?
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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And how the hell does it have no psilocin, thats like not possible...
wait.. It isnt possible i dont think
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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woaronun
symbiont

Registered: 05/30/13
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Joust]
#21795845 - 06/12/15 02:20 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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But the collected fruit bodies bruised blue, isn't that the reaction of oxidizing psilocin? Odd...
-------------------- ~notice your next breath~
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Heyowana
Hex10 line2


Registered: 04/01/14
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: woaronun]
#21795956 - 06/12/15 03:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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This bit re- P.germanica got me thinking.'The novel species was differentiated from other psychoactive taxons such as Psilocybe cyanescens, Psilocybe azurescens and Psilocybe bohemica in combination from features of the stipes and caps.' Sounds a bit rudimentary in this day and age. I googled P.bohemica aka P.serbica and it isn't as diminutive as they say. In fact its size and morphology are similar to P.germanica. Pethaps someone can clear this up for me. I thought psilocybin was.converted into psilocin through an enzymatic reaction. The psilocin then oxidises causing bluing. P.semilanceata which they compare the alkaloid profile of P.germanica to doesn't show such extensive bluing as P.germanica. Alan should be given some samples so a MODERN DNA test could help classify this new mushroom.
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Anglerfish
hearing things



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 18,644
Loc: Norvegr
Last seen: 3 hours, 49 minutes
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: So....No mycobank number?
Which I assume then collapses the whole thing? Have you been in touch with the author(s)?
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Anglerfish]
#21796272 - 06/12/15 07:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe they haven't read the Melbourne Code?
Quote:
Anglerfish said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: So....No mycobank number?
Which I assume then collapses the whole thing? Have you been in touch with the author(s)?
The ICN requires that a publication cites an "identifier issued by a recognised repository" (ie mycobank). Without it the publication is invalid.
Another change in the Melbourne code is that a latin description is no longer required.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Joust]
#21796285 - 06/12/15 07:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Joust said: And how the hell does it have no psilocin, thats like not possible...
wait.. It isnt possible i dont think
I suppose it's possible. Psilocybin is a relatively stable molecule. If the mushroom doesn't have a functional phosphatase enzyme to dephosphorylate the psilocybin it may not have detectable levels of psilocin.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: TimmiT]
#21796502 - 06/12/15 09:03 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
TimmiT said:
Quote:
Joust said: And how the hell does it have no psilocin, thats like not possible...
wait.. It isnt possible i dont think
I suppose it's possible. Psilocybin is a relatively stable molecule. If the mushroom doesn't have a functional phosphatase enzyme to dephosphorylate the psilocybin it may not have detectable levels of psilocin.
but will still have psilocin,,, thats why im confused, they should always have some amount. and GC/MS should pic it up, unless they did TLC or something else...
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,276
Last seen: 43 minutes, 11 seconds
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: TimmiT] 1
#21798272 - 06/12/15 04:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anglerfish said: Which I assume then collapses the whole thing? Have you been in touch with the author(s)?
I have not.
Yes, the name is invalid due to the lack of a mycobank number.
It is also invalid because it is Psilocybe serbica. And Gartz must know this, I can't figure out why he would publish this crap!
Quote:
TimmiT said: I suppose it's possible. Psilocybin is a relatively stable molecule. If the mushroom doesn't have a functional phosphatase enzyme to dephosphorylate the psilocybin it may not have detectable levels of psilocin.
It has lots of psilocin, as evidenced by the bluing. This shows that you can't believe everything you read, even in a peer reviewed scientific journal.
TLC is a rather poor method to detect psilocin, if they were serious they would have used GCMS.
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Joust
Mycotographer




Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 13,392
Loc: WA
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Well this sucks... Emails should fly!
-------------------- ~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~ _________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________ "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen "Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira
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mannextdoor
The man next door...

Registered: 09/14/11
Posts: 209
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Joust]
#22331343 - 10/04/15 04:42 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi!
Yesterday I was looking for the "psilocybe germanica" at the the Location, described in the paper. Unfortunately, the weather is really dry for the season this year. So I found no fruiting Psilocybe but i was able to collect some suspect mycelium, which was colonizing wood chips...
Hopefully I´ll found time to inspect the location after rain falls next time...
And again, I had a disappointing mail conversation with Gartz this summer about the status of this "species" - so, the publication of Gartz is very, very doubtful! Bu, let´s wait for some real specimen..:-)
mnd
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meat_master_king
Stranger

Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Tacoma, Washington
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: A new Psilocybe from Germany [Re: Joust]
#23730802 - 10/12/16 10:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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According to John Allen, Dr. Gartz had before, published faulty data on chemical analysis of 7 species he claimed to have analysed as psilocybian fungi.
A year after Gartz' paper was published, Dr. stijve of the Nestles Corp. in Switzerland analysed the very same collected herbarium collections studied by Dr. Gartz and found that only one of the 7 species studied by Dr. Gartz possessed psilocybin and psilocin, the other six were void of the chemicals. Here are references from john allen's bibliography of entheogenic fungi by allen and garzt 2000.
Jochen Gartz. ------. 1986b. Nachweis von Tryptaminderivaten in Pilzen der Gattungen Gerronema, Hygrocybe, Psathyrella, und Inocybe. Biochemie und Physiologie der Pflanzen vol. 181:275-278. Detection of tryptamine derivatives in fungi of the genera Gerronema (Rickenella), Hygrocybe, Psathyrella, and Inocybe. Two years later, Drs. Tjakko Stijve and Th. W. Kuyper, 1988. R refuted the chemical analysis presented in this paper by Jochen Gartz as false. In German.

The paper as listed in the CD:Bibliography by Allen and Gartz. For refs. Used with permission from allen.
Stijve, Tjakko and Th. W. Kuyper. 1988. Absence of psilocybin in species of fungi previously reported to contain psilocybin and related tryptamine derivatives. Persoonia vol. 13(4):463-465. Seven taxa of agarics previously reported in the scientific literature by Gartz (1986b) as psychoactive are analyzed for psilocybin and other related tryptamine compounds. All seven were found to be negative. See Page 137 for abstract images of the next three papers by Dr. Stijve.
According to allen as well as stijve, Gartz has conducted faulty analysis in the past and faulty identification as well. Yet he has contributed much to the world of psilocybin containing fungi in Europe. The pictures posted are from allen and gartz CD-Rom. "Teonanacatl: a bibliography of entheogenic fungi. no longer available.
I am building a large website for posting his CD online.

meat_master_king
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