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Invisibleagarmeister
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Stock growth after grafting cacti
    #21786891 - 06/10/15 04:24 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Hi All,

I have some 1-inch wide Lophophora Williamsii buttons, and also some 5-inch tall Trichocereus pachanois.

I read that the only way to boost the growth of cacti is by grafting.

My question is this: when grafting, does the stock cactus keeps growing?
If not, then it would be a waste to graft my Lophophoras on the young Pachanois, right?


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OfflineLemnaminor
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21786908 - 06/10/15 04:40 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

stock doesn't grow anymore, because all the effort of growing is put into the scion. It may get a bit fatter, but it won't grow in height. Sometimes even a grafted stock may pup from some areoles.

It depends on what you think is a shame. If your goal is to improve Loph growht, it is not. Also the overall mescaline income is proabably higher  than having a loph and a single trich not grafted toghether.


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: Lemnaminor]
    #21786922 - 06/10/15 04:55 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for your reply.

I meant that it would be a shame to "lose" the stock cactus for the purpose, it might make more sense to use a non-"active" stock for grafting.

Speaking of mescaline income,  I read that grafted lophs produce very little to no mecaline, and that you have to replant them and wait a few years before harvesting.
Don't know whether that's true though.


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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21787030 - 06/10/15 06:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

agarmeister said:
Thanks for your reply.

I meant that it would be a shame to "lose" the stock cactus for the purpose, it might make more sense to use a non-"active" stock for grafting.

Speaking of mescaline income,  I read that grafted lophs produce very little to no mecaline, and that you have to replant them and wait a few years before harvesting.
Don't know whether that's true though.




old wive's tale spread for at least 15 years online (oldest post I found) alkaloids produce at same rate. the cacti flesh grows at an advanced rate.

The graft will take on lots of water and growth. It will blow up faster than a hard grown cactus the same age...in size. That Is why people think grafts are weaker..its based on the water weight and size. The alkaloid content on a mature graft should be comparable to a hard grown button of the same age, but not necessarily size.

If you intend to use wet material, then you will have to use a lot more. If you dry the material, it should be about the same between hard grown and grafts.

That is my opinion formulated from my research on the subject around the internet. It seems to be the proper summation of all the arguments, and a valid explanation on why. If you want to argue different go ahead...but please post anecdotal proof and not just bad information regurgitated from someone who did no research.


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: kosmokratorshaman]
    #21787045 - 06/10/15 06:24 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks, and - I would not argue for the sake of argument, if only due to the fact that I have no first-hand knowledge on the subject.

How old should a loph (grafted or not) be before it is active enough for consumption?


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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21787073 - 06/10/15 06:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

At 1 year, on pereskiopsis, you could expect an average of 1% mescaline by dry weight. (subjective anecdotal guesstimates :naughty:)
And a button would be 90-92% water.
At 5cm diameter, that would yield ~4g once dried.

There was some tested that had been grown in Europe under glass, on myrtle stocks. I think they were between 1 and 2% mescaline by dry weight.

eta: the myrtle graft was 0.93%

Pereskiopsis grafts need testing after 2 years growth from seed. I am 2.5 years from results :lol:


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #21787115 - 06/10/15 06:56 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So does that mean that if I graft now then in two years I might have myself a ripe loph ready for the pickin'?


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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21787146 - 06/10/15 07:12 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

agarmeister said:
So does that mean that if I graft now then in two years I might have myself a ripe loph ready for the pickin'?




heh, you will have a fatty, and multiple pups to regraft. In two years, you can create a lot.


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: kosmokratorshaman]
    #21787174 - 06/10/15 07:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

but would they also be active enough for consumption after two years?


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Offlinekizatzhaddarak
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21787246 - 06/10/15 07:58 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

depends on what you graft to, I suppose.. . sometimes you get "suckers"/sports/pups.. depending on species. Especially true with fruit trees, and roses (thinks back to the many roses I have had over the years that were grafted..graft died..and rootstock suckers of wild roses coming up).

It just depends on species. Pereskia and Pereskiopsis often put out side growth, that I have noticed. They grow fast. .and put out new growth fast. So far, I just use a razor blade, and cut the sports off my base plant, so my scion and graft get more nutrients.


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: kizatzhaddarak]
    #21787272 - 06/10/15 08:09 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So does that mean that a stock of Trichocereus pachanoi would grow a Lophophora scion containing more mescaline than a lophophora grafted on pereskiopsis?


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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21787297 - 06/10/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know if the mescaline % has been tested from lophs grafted to active scions, but I wouldn't assume it would cause an increase.

They are active enough after 1 year, if you have enough biomass.
If this activity increases with age when grafted is a question that needs be answered by experiments :smile:

graft, grow, gobble, it is not like they are endangered in captivity :grin:


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #21787318 - 06/10/15 08:27 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah I hear you, it's just that every failed experiment costs you about 2 years in waiting time, at least.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21787962 - 06/10/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The trick is to start many many seeds so that grafting losses aren't a big deal.


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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: psi]
    #21788560 - 06/10/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
The trick is to start many many seeds so that grafting losses aren't a big deal.




or do more than one experiment at once.


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: kosmokratorshaman]
    #21788578 - 06/10/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Good point. Now I gotta find me some pereskiopsis seeds.
How come no one sells those online?


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Offlinekosmokratorshaman
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21788599 - 06/10/15 02:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

agarmeister said:
Good point. Now I gotta find me some pereskiopsis seeds.
How come no one sells those online?




That's a good question. Ive always bought cuttings to graft to. I recently got some subpar cuttings, but I am rooting and growing them out, to get better plants. Once that's done, Ive got tons of seedlings to graft


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OfflineLemnaminor
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: agarmeister]
    #21788645 - 06/10/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Never ever heard of Pereskiopsis seeds.
They are so easy and fucking fast to reproduce and clone by cuttings that tryng to get them from seeds would only be a waste of time.


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Offlinekizatzhaddarak
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: Lemnaminor]
    #21789228 - 06/10/15 04:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe I will try letting my pereskia and perskiopsis flower and set seed for you all then..LOL. I hear seeds are hard to come by, because people don't usually let them flower and set seed. they mainly just grow them for grafting and cut off vegitative growth sports when they sucker-off the main stem.

I currently am growing Pereskia weberiana, and Pereskiopsis porteri. the Pereskia is not as bulky as the pereskiopsis, as a grafting base, though. The Pereskiopsis is a much better option as a grafting base.


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Invisibleagarmeister
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Re: Stock growth after grafting cacti [Re: kizatzhaddarak]
    #21791751 - 06/11/15 04:48 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'd love to get a cutting, but as far as mail-orders are concerned, it's out of the question.


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