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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: insanemike]
#21777963 - 06/08/15 09:40 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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insanemike said: First, everyone called them strains then that was a no no. Then they were referred to as varieties but now that's a no no. See the trend? Whether you want to face it or not, the LABELSmay change over time but we will always refer to them by the names in which they were given.
Not everyone on this thread is familiar with the terminology we use, so sometimes it's confusing. I agree. But there is no confusion about the word "strain". We know what the word strain means in mycology, and those names you find on your prints are NOT strains. TC is not a strain. Orissa is not a strain. Even PE is not a strain.
When eventually cubes will be legal to grow (yes, I am an optimistic son of a bitch), those "labels" will disappear because then we will be able to buy true "strains" on a Petri dish. That would be truly amazing and would bring cubensis strains in the same category as cannabis strains.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
Edited by LeopardMan (06/08/15 10:18 AM)
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21777978 - 06/08/15 09:43 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pastywhyte said: Well I have probably done well over 1000 plates with many different nutrient sources and concentrations. I have come to conclude that while nutrient concentration or source is a factor, its not the only one. I have seen rhyzo growth on very nutrient laden media. The fact that it can be observed in a pf cake which is loaded with nutrients causes me to question how relevant that its.
using the very same substrate with different cultures gives you various results one player call it Z-strain would always show rizomorphic growth, while on another player call it Corumba Brazil would show tomentose
both players repeat the very same act numerous times regardless what is the substrate
accident ? i don't think so
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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Sksoul
Pan handler



Registered: 10/31/14
Posts: 397
Loc: Far East
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: insanemike]
#21778011 - 06/08/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think that the phrase "a cube is a cube" became popularized to put down the marketing hype of different varieties by those who knew a little better. In most cases B+, Golden Teacher, Columbian, Burma, Equador, Mazatapec, etc., can hardly be told apart, if at all. I sure as hell cant tell them by picture and they can all be grown under the exact same growth parameters.
But I also feel that the generalization of "a cube is a cube" is oversimplified. There are definitely genetic differences from variety to variety. Not every cube is the same, just as not every person is the same.
One thing I am wondering is- What does it matter what people label their cubes as? I've been working with a cube that no spore supplier (every spore supplier) provides. Found in Borneo, but its a general cube. I have no desire to sell anythign so I haven't named it. It is Psilocybe Cubensis to me. It is a powerful fruiter with golden caps... Strong as most cubes come. Red spores and pale traits definitely are different. There is no reason to knock those traits down. They should be celebrated. PE and Albinos are super cool varieties. I hope to get some prints/swabs one day.
I think there is an opportunity to find the genetic variances pw talks about. Unfortunately, I feel like most growers are out to get the easiest to cultivat/most reliable cultures, not the most genetically unique ones. Perhaps this thread will change things.
-------------------- Like all great travellers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Sksoul]
#21778290 - 06/08/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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An interesting point, what does it matter? At the end of the day not a whole lot really. If your getting results thats enough for most. For me its more about the what ifs, the potential be it good or bad. To understand how lineage plays a role in what we end up with.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21778392 - 06/08/15 11:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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the search for truth even if the truth makes no difference is a valid quest imo
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21778396 - 06/08/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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mustangbob3 said: the search for truth even if the truth makes no difference is a valid quest imo
+ 1
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21778416 - 06/08/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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so we can agree lol
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21778576 - 06/08/15 12:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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mustangbob3 said: yes i agree it was lazy of me  but you still understood what i meant right? 
I certainly did, there seems to be a lot of pedantic feigned ignorance about the term strain, to the point where you would think people have never heard it being used before in the way you did.
Sporeworks, Ryche Hawk, Paul Stamets, John Allen (mjshroomer) all use (or have used) the word "strain" the way you did -the stupid noobs
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LeopardMan said:4 years ago everybody was saying that a cube is a cube, today they are all disappeared )
you can search the phrase and it was being said in 1999. However when people said "a cube is a cube" I did not ever get the impression they were talking about not being able to tell them apart visually, except for PE. Sure many look very similar and would be hard to tell apart -but if you search the phrase "cube is a cube" its usually a reference to potency, effects, speed of growth etc. It is usually in response to people asking questions like -which is most potent -which will give best visuals -which is most contaminant resistant -which grows fastest -which has the most flushes/highest yield
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: blackout]
#21778618 - 06/08/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't think anyone is trying to be deliberately obtuse when trying to discourage the misuse of the word strain. Also while people like Stamets or John Allen may have used the word strain like that in the past, the real question is would they today. Mycology is allowed to evolve. Many of the things stamets has said in the past had also been either refuted or recanted. People make mistakes. They also improve. Personally i find strain to be misleading in several aspects of its usage so I support its replacement with something more appropriate.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: blackout]
#21778664 - 06/08/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said: yes i agree it was lazy of me  but you still understood what i meant right? 
I certainly did, there seems to be a lot of pedantic feigned ignorance about the term strain, to the point where you would think people have never heard it being used before in the way you did.
Sporeworks, Ryche Hawk, Paul Stamets, John Allen (mjshroomer) all use (or have used) the word "strain" the way you did -the stupid noobs
Quote:
LeopardMan said:4 years ago everybody was saying that a cube is a cube, today they are all disappeared )
you can search the phrase and it was being said in 1999. However when people said "a cube is a cube" I did not ever get the impression they were talking about not being able to tell them apart visually, except for PE. Sure many look very similar and would be hard to tell apart -but if you search the phrase "cube is a cube" its usually a reference to potency, effects, speed of growth etc. It is usually in response to people asking questions like -which is most potent -which will give best visuals -which is most contaminant resistant -which grows fastest -which has the most flushes/highest yield
the only reason they and others have said it is-
Quote:
its just like when people go to the 'strain' thread they are not talking about a 'strain' or hundreds of strains they made in a tub they are using the term strain to denote a variety that the spores came from for prosperity, we wouldnt try to name every chance meeting of hyphae would we, so we unite them under the umbrella term of the named strain:)
i.e someone posts a fruiting MS monotub pic..... someone says what strain it that? reply golden teacher! its about prosperity, we would not give a list longer than our arm of names for each individual chance meeting of hyphae that we decide to stick a name too and in every tub! that would get silly. untill isolates are sold strain or variety is as good as we should expect! only isolated matings of spores are actually strains and till its common place to buy these i dont see the problem with using a name for prosperity reason! its the only clue we have to the possible gene frequencies of any given print! that is mostly defined by the variety it has comes from and is the best we should expect.
not completely accurate but for ease it is done all the time
it is not 100% correct tho is it so i can see why people angry at me!
i just thought this thread was to take away the moaning of terminology and get down to stuff and look past the silly stuff lol but yes all singing from the same hym sheet is very important. sorry to anyone i offended with my loose terms 
but do remember the names are the only heritage these shrooms have got and if they didnt have names how would we get a syringe of the kind we want with the traits we want!! just grow and hope! thats what would happen if it was all p.cubensis from now on! imagine you take a fancy to cambos. you would never be able to get it again with certainty! people do have favourites and tastes.
even pasty would not be able to have even been able to concidered making the crs cross as where would he or anyone have aquired the spores that he knows has this trait if they all was simply cubensis.
least the names have a history and that history of grows gives incite. if we want to take trait from 1 and mix with another the strains having a provable history and lineage would be a good thing to have!
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 12:57 PM)
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: blackout]
#21778667 - 06/08/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said: yes i agree it was lazy of me  but you still understood what i meant right? 
I certainly did, there seems to be a lot of pedantic feigned ignorance about the term strain, to the point where you would think people have never heard it being used before in the way you did.
Sporeworks, Ryche Hawk, Paul Stamets, John Allen (mjshroomer) all use (or have used) the word "strain" the way you did -the stupid noobs
Ipse dixit then, right? Stamets wrote many things that we know are not correct (like incubation in total darkness). Does that mean that we have to keep saying those things? I don't know how to put this, but a strain is not a label on a print. We moved past that years ago.
It's not that I am being pedantic, it's just that we cannot understand each other if we do not agree on basic terminology.
Quote:
Quote:
LeopardMan said:4 years ago everybody was saying that a cube is a cube, today they are all disappeared )
you can search the phrase and it was being said in 1999. However when people said "a cube is a cube" I did not ever get the impression they were talking about not being able to tell them apart visually, except for PE. Sure many look very similar and would be hard to tell apart -but if you search the phrase "cube is a cube" its usually a reference to potency, effects, speed of growth etc. It is usually in response to people asking questions like -which is most potent -which will give best visuals -which is most contaminant resistant -which grows fastest -which has the most flushes/highest yield
I didn't say that the adage "a cube is a cube" was born four years ago. I just said that 4 years ago the general consensus on these boards was completely different. Sure there were some growers who used to say those exact things PW and Bodhisatta and pretty much everybody else are saying today, but they were a small minority (I remember Doc_T and anonjon among others).
But you are wrong. RR and many others were all pretty clear when they stated that a print cannot be considered a strain. Don't try to change the past, please.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21778685 - 06/08/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pastywhyte said: I don't think anyone is trying to be deliberately obtuse when trying to discourage the misuse of the word strain. Also while people like Stamets or John Allen may have used the word strain like that in the past, the real question is would they today. Mycology is allowed to evolve. Many of the things stamets has said in the past had also been either refuted or recanted. People make mistakes. They also improve. Personally i find strain to be misleading in several aspects of its usage so I support its replacement with something more appropriate.

Maybe we do not agree on many things as far as mycology is concerned, but we do agree on the way people should debate topics and discuss ideas
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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grainbrain
Tribalistic

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 2,626
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21778714 - 06/08/15 01:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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mustangbob3 said: prosperity
Posterity.
Interesting thread. Each variety (i.e. collection of all strains within that genetic pool) does have it's own visual phenotype(s). I would also argue that the exact ratios of psilocybin/psylocin/baeocystin are slightly different from variety to variety, hence the varying reports of visuals/body load that often correlate over time. Some say Asian strains are more visual, others say that Mexican strains have more body load, etc. Without legal research, we won't likely know anytime soon and this is mostly conjecture.
As far as cultivation goes, a cube is a cube.
-------------------- Stop cold shocking your mycelium! Hot Spawn - Get It On 
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21778718 - 06/08/15 01:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pastywhyte said: Also while people like Stamets or John Allen may have used the word strain like that in the past, the real question is would they today.
exactly why I added the (or used to) comment. Sporeworks and Hawk still use the term.
You can add Stephen L Peele to the list who uses/used it in that way.
I think it is what most people understand it to mean, and so keep using it, I never had any confusion about it. Just like I knowingly incorrectly use the term "weight" all the time, when I should be saying "mass", even though I have a degree which should mean I know fine well it's incorrect.
When people DO use the term strain correctly its usually pretty obvious that they are not talking about "varieties" -or whatever you want to call them this week.
Quote:
LeopardMan said:When eventually cubes will be legal to grow (yes, I am an optimistic son of a bitch), those "labels" will disappear because then we will be able to buy true "strains" on a Petri dish. That would be truly amazing and would bring cubensis strains in the same category as cannabis strains.
People often say cubensis "varieties" are not like seeds of cannabis strains. But I do see a similarity. If there were true strains on petris being sold, I would compare that more to cannabis cuttings/clones being sold, rather than seeds. I do consider the seeds to be pretty much analogous to spores.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: blackout]
#21778748 - 06/08/15 01:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I don't think anyone is trying to be deliberately obtuse when trying to discourage the misuse of the word strain. Also while people like Stamets or John Allen may have used the word strain like that in the past, the real question is would they today. Mycology is allowed to evolve. Many of the things stamets has said in the past had also been either refuted or recanted. People make mistakes. They also improve. Personally i find strain to be misleading in several aspects of its usage so I support its replacement with something more appropriate.

Maybe we do not agree on many things as far as mycology is concerned, but we do agree on the way people should debate topics and discuss ideas 
I think we agree on more than you think 
Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Also while people like Stamets or John Allen may have used the word strain like that in the past, the real question is would they today.
exactly why I added the (or used to) comment. Sporeworks and Hawk still use the term.
You can add Stephen L Peele to the list who uses/used it in that way.
I think it is what most people understand it to mean, and so keep using it, I never had any confusion about it. Just like I knowingly incorrectly use the term "weight" all the time, when I should be saying "mass", even though I have a degree which should mean I know fine well it's incorrect.
When people DO use the term strain correctly its usually pretty obvious that they are not talking about "varieties" -or whatever you want to call them this week.
I never came up with varieties but it does seem to fit nice so I use it. Also I have run into situations where it wasn't clear what the person was referring to and lead to a fair bit of confusion while we were trying to figure out what he was trying to say. In the end it was discovered that he had heard that strain was the same as an isolate and that he was using the B+ isolate. Granted it was a pretty isolated incident but, why can't we get better at sounding like we know what the hell we are doing
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: grainbrain]
#21778752 - 06/08/15 01:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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grainbrain said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said: prosperity
Posterity.
Interesting thread. Each variety (i.e. collection of all strains within that genetic pool) does have it's own visual phenotype(s). I would also argue that the exact ratios of psilocybin/psylocin/baeocystin are slightly different from variety to variety, hence the varying reports of visuals/body load that often correlate over time. Some say Asian strains are more visual, others say that Mexican strains have more body load, etc. Without legal research, we won't likely know anytime soon and this is mostly conjecture.
As far as cultivation goes, a cube is a cube. 
oops ( and i did it twice too, the shame )
i think variety fits well and takes away ambiguity so i will use that from now on pasty, so thanks and thanks for putting up with me
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 01:24 PM)
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grainbrain
Tribalistic

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 2,626
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3] 1
#21778775 - 06/08/15 01:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said:
oops
I was just being a wise posterior.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21778790 - 06/08/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I don't think anyone is trying to be deliberately obtuse when trying to discourage the misuse of the word strain. Also while people like Stamets or John Allen may have used the word strain like that in the past, the real question is would they today. Mycology is allowed to evolve. Many of the things stamets has said in the past had also been either refuted or recanted. People make mistakes. They also improve. Personally i find strain to be misleading in several aspects of its usage so I support its replacement with something more appropriate.

Maybe we do not agree on many things as far as mycology is concerned, but we do agree on the way people should debate topics and discuss ideas 
I think we agree on more than you think 
I definitely agree on this one
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21778812 - 06/08/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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we got carried away,
so what about PE?
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21778875 - 06/08/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pastywhyte said: Can you tell the cubes in my sig apart? Its actually a trick question but I bet most people can get the one on the right 50% right.
Quote:
azur said: You know what is weird? Any time i grew pe outside, they looked like other "regular" cubes. Hmmm
Now that is weird. You are suggesting that the PE phenotype is a response to elevated CO2? Very cool indeed.
Outdoor Penis Porn, here is the thread.
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