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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777651 - 06/08/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you guys are so sure that there are visibile differences between say PF Classic and Transkei or Orissa, then let's open a new thread.
People will post their pictures without any indication whatsoever regarding "varieties" and you'll guess which is which. It's the third time I am proposing this.
Thanks PW as usual. Style is style
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Quote:
oregon.trailboy said: This thread is pretty heavy! A lot to take in (that's what she said) 
That's what she said after those PE Uncut pics, right?
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21777673 - 06/08/15 07:55 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Though years ago it was not a reliable source, wikipedia has come a long way.
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oregon.trailboy
OTB



Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 1,641
Loc: Oregon
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777677 - 06/08/15 07:56 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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That Ape tho. She definitely loves that Ape.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777686 - 06/08/15 08:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said: If you guys are so sure that there are visibile differences between say PF Classic and Transkei or Orissa, then let's open a new thread.
People will post their pictures without any indication whatsoever regarding "varieties" and you'll guess which is which. It's the third time I am proposing this.
Thanks PW as usual. Style is style 
maybe with a number of tubs of each variety you may be able to pick them out as the individual groups would show some tendancy towards a certain phenotype.
its a numbers game. the more individual tubs of each group the more a pattern can be established and then can sort who belongs to what group. its like the game guess who! 1 on 1 all depends on the individual expression of that 1 tub and dosent show a representation of the strain(variety) as a whole. 
grow 10 malabar and 10 any other and just label 10 tubs as group a and 10 as group b.
or a hundred of each- the more the better!
i bet a pattern of persistent viels in the malabar will declare the identity of the malabar group.
the pattern relys on numbers to gain strength!
the more numbers the more accurately you can access the frequency of the traits!
1 tub only allows a snapshot of the possibility's or tendancies of a strain(variety).
more tubs will give more evidence and allow the traits of malabar to come up with frequency so the group declares itself.
i.e a large percentage of fruits from group 'a' showed a persistent veil. therefore it is declared the tubs in group 'a' even though some tubs had normal fruits belongs to the group malabar as the frequency of persistent viels is born out over mutiple grows.
allowing us to assign what is what.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 09:16 AM)
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777730 - 06/08/15 08:20 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I definitely agree with the latter half of this thread . I fully agree domestic strains are basically just a cube. Variety doesn't mean a thing. I have creepers throwing massive fruits and orissas with tiny ass fruits. Exactly opposite of what they should do. The first pic in my sig is orissa.
I'm more interested in the difference between a domestic strain which was bred for yield and potency and a wild strain that was bred to survive mother nature.
Wild grows show a lot of variance in yield, size, and potency according to PW. It seems that a mushroom still carries over cosmetic traits, so I'm just assuming it'll carry other genetics like potency and yield. It sounds like a great experiment
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Mad Season]
#21777744 - 06/08/15 08:27 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm more interested in the difference between a domestic strain which was bred for yield and potency and a wild strain that was bred to survive mother nature.
mother nature just wont be as bottle necked and will show more variance. in nature having as many strategies as possible ensures survival in an ever changing enviroment.
when stabilised indoors the frequencies are changed to favour phenotypes that cope well in indoor setups.
return a cube to the wild and it would struggle for generations untils frequencies changed to allow more variability and thus more fruits that go on to reproduce in the differing conditions of nature.
only the ones with the genetic code to cope would pass on thier genes and this will slowly alter and swing the frequecies back to equilibrium again
remember no traits are ever lost! at the most its percentage frequency is halfed at each generation. you can keep halfing but you will never get to 0%
all traits are still in the cube strain(variety) from the day it was collected from the wild up till till now. the only thing to change is frequency of expression of these traits 1 way or the other. thats why we get mutants and fuckup fruits or under preforming ones! these cannot be removed only reduced in there number of appearences.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 09:18 AM)
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21777756 - 06/08/15 08:35 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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MustangBob, I noticed that you use the term "strain" in a way that is confusing to me. What do you mean when you write "strain"? This is not semantics, it's an important issue if we want to keep discussing this.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777772 - 06/08/15 08:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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i see a strain as any set of the same species but has individual characteristic that seperates them.
i.e two groups that belong in the same species but dont share a natural habitat and genetics of each group dont crossed. isolated from each other.
like say brazil and australian gold tops. same species different strain purely from the branching or bottlenecking of genes and becomeing substrains. there own characteristic frequencies but same species. like black and whites could be both strains of human
i really should have been more correct and said 'substrain' of the strain cubensis lol
like u said earlier sometime we write things for speed and presume others know and understand the little things and that they dont need repeating in depth at every post just to provide context.
most on this thread will understand by strain even tho it was used loosly that it was referring to different sub-strains as we are only talking about cubensis and not other species its a given really.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 08:48 AM)
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21777778 - 06/08/15 08:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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When we, The Homosapien species (cubensis) refer to human lineage we call it a "family" tree. So if we can't agree on the words strain or variety, why can't we just refer to them as families of cubensis? Such as, The Penis Envy Family or Treasure Coast Family.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: insanemike]
#21777812 - 06/08/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said: i see a strain as any set of the same species but has individual characteristic that seperates them.
i.e two groups that belong in the same species but dont share a natural habitat and genetics of each group dont crossed. isolated from each other.
like say brazil and australian gold tops. same species different strain purely from the branching or bottlenecking of genes and becomeing substrains. there own characteristic frequencies but same species. like black and whites could be both strains of human
i really should have been more correct and said 'substrain' of the strain cubensis lol
I suspected that. This is not the definition of strain we all use, and it's completely wrong IMO. Basically in mycology you have a new strain, when two compatible hyphae meet. That's why we say that in a single MS tub there are hundreds of strains.
Quote:
insanemike said: When we, The Homosapien species (cubensis) refer to human lineage we call it a "family" tree. So if we can't agree on the words strain or variety, why can't we just refer to them as families of cubensis? Such as, The Penis Envy Family or Treasure Coast Family.
The Treasure Coast Family Man, I am telling ya. There is not even a thing you can call TC, it's just a label on a print. Everybody agrees on this, even PW and Bodhisatta.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777826 - 06/08/15 08:56 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes i agree it was lazy of me  but you still understood what i meant right? 
the word didnt really change what i was saying in the grand scheme of things.
but i apologise 
its just like when people go to the 'strain' thread they are not talking about a 'strain' or hundreds of strains they made in a tub they are using the term strain to denote a variety that the spores came from for prosperity, we wouldnt try to name every chance meeting of hyphae would we, so we unite them under the umbrella term of the named strain:)
i.e someone posts a fruiting MS monotub pic..... someone says what strain it that? reply golden teacher! its about prosperity, we would not give a list longer than our arm of names for each individual chance meeting of hyphae that we decide to stick a name too and in every tub! that would get silly. untill isolates are sold strain or variety is as good as we should expect! only isolated matings of spores are actually strains and till its common place to buy these i dont see the problem with using a name for prosperity reason! its the only clue we have to the possible gene frequencies of any given print! that is mostly defined by the variety it has comes from and is the best we should expect.
not completely accurate but for ease it is done all the time
Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 10:16 AM)
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21777838 - 06/08/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said: yes i agree it was lazy of me  but you still understood what i meant right?
I'll be honest, no
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777865 - 06/08/15 09:09 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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ok then i cant help you if after you read the term strain it somehow changed every other word i put?
you know full well what i meant by using the term strain lol
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: insanemike]
#21777874 - 06/08/15 09:11 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I myself prefer to call them varieties. Strain certainly should be restricted to the correct mycological definition.
One thing that I would like to bring up is that thus far we have been discussing this purely from a visual standpoint. The real question that will still need answers is if macro differences are the product of lineage does it follow that less obvious attributes that we often chalk up to genetics are also affected. This of course is a slippery slope and can be refuted simply by the logic that missing attributes were simply not searched for deeply enough through isolation.
That all being said, I have had many instances where certain lineage could be depended on to produce more rhyzomorphic cultures. Others have proven far less dependable. Most Thai cubes seem to be chock full of aggressive looking genetics every time I go back to ms. Meanwhile I have only once been able to find a rhyzo looking AA+. Is this coincidence? Given many conversations I want to say no.
Finally it seems we all agree PE is special. This begs the question of how? If PE is a cube and is unique, then it must follow that there is the potential for other unique cubes to be developed. Thoughts?
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777879 - 06/08/15 09:12 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Excuse my lack of experience with all the different varieties, strains, whatever. The Three that I do have experience with cultivating though, are very different. I can visually see a difference between them. Pe, ksss and mexi-cub look absolutely nothing a like and that has to account for something.The point is, we as people like to put labels on things, it's in our nature. All I was trying to do was find a label that everyone can be satisfied with. First, everyone called them strains then that was a no no. Then they were referred to as varieties but now that's a no no. See the trend? Whether you want to face it or not, the LABELSmay change over time but we will always refer to them by the names in which they were given.
Edited by insanemike (06/08/15 09:15 AM)
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21777925 - 06/08/15 09:27 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Finally it seems we all agree PE is special. This begs the question of how? If PE is a cube and is unique, then it must follow that there is the potential for other unique cubes to be developed. Thoughts?
i would say workmans work proves it!
you could develope a 'better' cube from any variety by changing the frequency the trait you want to appear.
any cube might have the potential to be as strong as PE but the difference is the ratios.
in normal cubes they may only appear like 1 fruit in 100 tubs, and finding this 1 fruit is the ticket!
then working this and altering the frequency this fruit appears!
then the possibilities of crossing different variety's and gaining from it must also be present.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 09:31 AM)
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21777929 - 06/08/15 09:28 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I myself prefer to call them varieties. Strain certainly should be restricted to the correct mycological definition.
One thing that I would like to bring up is that thus far we have been discussing this purely from a visual standpoint. The real question that will still need answers is if macro differences are the product of lineage does it follow that less obvious attributes that we often chalk up to genetics are also affected. This of course is a slippery slope and can be refuted simply by the logic that missing attributes were simply not searched for deeply enough through isolation.
That all being said, I have had many instances where certain lineage could be depended on to produce more rhyzomorphic cultures. Others have proven far less dependable. Most Thai cubes seem to be chock full of aggressive looking genetics every time I go back to ms. Meanwhile I have only once been able to find a rhyzo looking AA+. Is this coincidence? Given many conversations I want to say no.
You bring up a topic that is one of my favorite. I personally observed and pointed out many times (and RR too) that rhizomorphic growth is usually the result of lack of nutrients or even water in the medium/substrate. As if the mycelium is basically trying to find more nutrients by generating these long, aggressive hyphae. So IME it's not something that is inherited as a "trait", but something created by environmental conditions. I am not saying that this is a fact, but it's certainly something you need to take into account.
Quote:
Finally it seems we all agree PE is special. This begs the question of how? If PE is a cube and is unique, then it must follow that there is the potential for other unique cubes to be developed. Thoughts?
I have not a definite answer for that. Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if somebody in the future will demonstrate that PE is not a cube. But again this is not a fact, just my opinion
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777951 - 06/08/15 09:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
You bring up a topic that is one of my favorite. I personally observed and pointed out many times (and RR too) that rhizomorphic growth is usually the result of lack of nutrients or even water in the medium/substrate. As if the mycelium is basically trying to find more nutrients by generating these long, aggressive hyphae. So IME it's not something that is inherited as a "trait", but something created by environmental conditions. I am not saying that this is a fact, but it's certainly something you need to take into account.
mycelium in identical conditions can behave with different growths. so it can be inherited. just the fact the mycelium can react different when everything else is the same says that the systems in the myc react to different amount of stimulus.
or they would both behave the same.
they dont as the switch it triggered at a different points. i.e different nutrient levels or moisture levels.
the code in the dna that triggers the change in growth must be different to have a different trigger point!
and this must be inherited some way
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777953 - 06/08/15 09:38 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I have probably done well over 1000 plates with many different nutrient sources and concentrations. I have come to conclude that while nutrient concentration or source is a factor, its not the only one. I have seen rhyzo growth on very nutrient laden media. The fact that it can be observed in a pf cake which is loaded with nutrients causes me to question how relevant that its.
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