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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Leopard for the most part I can and will agree that many of the "strains" in your list are unremarkable. No question they are truly average with no special work or effort placed into them. I am curious as to how stable many of them are. But we can agree that they are pretty average.
When you have some free time, you really need to make a list of those "varieties" you think are truly different from average cubes so we can look into those one by one.
So far you only told me that CRS and KSSS are clearly distinguishable from standard cubes. I am curious to know if there are other varieties you can spot just by looking at them.
Nice thread btw, there is plenty of info here
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777444 - 06/08/15 06:00 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Leopard for the most part I can and will agree that many of the "strains" in your list are unremarkable. No question they are truly average with no special work or effort placed into them. I am curious as to how stable many of them are. But we can agree that they are pretty average.
When you have some free time, you really need to make a list of those "varieties" you think are truly different from average cubes so we can look into those one by one.
So far you only told me that CRS and KSSS are clearly distinguishable from standard cubes. I am curious to know if there are other varieties you can spot just by looking at them.
Nice thread btw, there is plenty of info here 
PF classic, PF redspore, APE, PE, PE uncut, KSSS, F albino, PF albino, AA+, CRS i recon the rest look pretty much the same but we aren't talking only about the appearance, some of them have the tendency to show certain traits which pretty much runs through the lineage, no matter who grows them and on what. talking about tendency towards cluster formation, big fruit formation, rhizomorphic mycelium, tomentose mycelium, fast fruiter, slow fruiter etc
of course with cloning and isolating from every MS culture u can select these traits but this isn't I'm talking about .
from an MS culture high percent 70-90% will act in a similar way due to years and years of selective printing. and yes you are right its still MS and still a cubensis but has a certain treat its been selected for generation after generation
if u want to test it out, grow out some PE, and only swab the normal looking fruits and let us know how long does it take to have a pure culture only by swabbing the normal looking fruits. my guess is around 5-7 generations due to the fact that from a wild specimens print in 5-7 generations u can stabilize that fruit the way u wanted it,
this is why many people going back to wild prints so they can play with the gene pool and select the attributes he desires
bodhisatta quoted this so did i a few times but here you go
Quote:
Workman said:
Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity. This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other. Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions. For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms. If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.
Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes. Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each. Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall.
Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later. In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations. There is a net loss of heterozygosity. Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.
So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strain is stable even from multispore.
Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection. In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.
100% wild print 50% 1st generation from wild print 25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print 12.5% 3rd generation..... 6.25% 4th generation..... 3.12% 5th generation..... 1.56% 6th generation..... 0.78% 7th generation.....
You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation. This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from. Attempting to isolate traits in well established strains results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).
In summary:
Popular classic strains in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.
New strains, from wild material or cross breeding between different strains of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.
Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever. Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding. Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.
Does that help?
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
Edited by Aero (06/08/15 06:06 AM)
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21777506 - 06/08/15 06:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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That there work man was somin else.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21777525 - 06/08/15 06:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aero said:
Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Leopard for the most part I can and will agree that many of the "strains" in your list are unremarkable. No question they are truly average with no special work or effort placed into them. I am curious as to how stable many of them are. But we can agree that they are pretty average.
When you have some free time, you really need to make a list of those "varieties" you think are truly different from average cubes so we can look into those one by one.
So far you only told me that CRS and KSSS are clearly distinguishable from standard cubes. I am curious to know if there are other varieties you can spot just by looking at them.
Nice thread btw, there is plenty of info here 
PF classic, PF redspore, APE, PE, PE uncut, KSSS, F albino, PF albino, AA+, CRS i recon the rest look pretty much the same
Thanks, we are down to 10 now. But look more closely into these supposed "varieties". Most of them are albinos (4 out of ten), and I've already said what I think albinos are.
Quote:
albinos are different. They show some consistency. Most of the times the produce white fruits, true. But does that imply that they are a different variety? Not at all. Albinos are just cubes with a leucistic trait and if you keep print>grow>print this trait will disappear 90% of the times because of random mutation. That's how the albino trait showed up in the first place. That's how evolution works btw.
Proof of this is that you cannot distinguish F albino from AA+ or PF albino. Or can you? They are all the same thing: Albino cubes. There is no way around this.
PE and PE uncut... is there a difference? Really? Can you spot it?
PF Classic is where this thread turns into science fiction. It's a cube man, just like any other. And you can distinguish it from other cubes. I dare you to open a new thread in MC: POST YOUR CUBES GROWS AND I WILL SPOT YOUR PF CLASSIC GROWS JUST BY LOOKING AT YOUR PICTURES. I would be amazed if you can do that.
The reason why I say this is because after 7 years of MC I have come to the conclusion that the only true differences among cube prints are basically 3:
Albino and brown spores cubes are random mutations. Sometimes they keep producing white fruits and brown spores, sometimes they don't. Like I said before PE is the real mystery and I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the future someone will show us that PE is not a cube.
Quote:
bodhisatta quoted this so did i a few times but here you go
Quote:
Workman said:
Now consider a wild collection of Psilocybe cubensis with a high heterozygosity. This basically means that most or all of each pair of genes in the mushroom are different from each other. Its the same gene location with the same basic function, but different versions. For example, if there is a single gene for height, you might have a version that gives short mushrooms and a version that gives tall mushrooms. If heterozygosity is high, you have one of each which may result in medium mushrooms unless one of the height genes is dominant.
Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes. Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each. Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall.
Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later. In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations. There is a net loss of heterozygosity. Over the entire genome the loss is about 50% per generation.
So mathematically we can figure out how many sequential multispore generations we need until the heterozygosity is reduced to an insignificant level and the strain is stable even from multispore.
Starting with a presumably high (~100%) heterozygosity from a wild collection. In reality, the heterozygosity is probably lower than 100%, but its an easy number to start with.
100% wild print 50% 1st generation from wild print 25% 2nd generation from 1st generation print 12.5% 3rd generation..... 6.25% 4th generation..... 3.12% 5th generation..... 1.56% 6th generation..... 0.78% 7th generation.....
You can see that the heterozygosity drops off quickly in the first few generations and is less than 1% after the 6th generation. This highlights the importance of choosing the best traits early on when there are more to choose from. Attempting to isolate traits in well established strains results in only minimal improvements unless spontaneous mutations increase the heterozygosity in a positive way (rare).
In summary:
Popular classic strains in circulation have all been grown well beyond 6 generations and are relatively stable from multispore with little need for isolation.
New strains, from wild material or cross breeding between different strains of the same species, can be stabilized fairly quickly with 6 or 7 generations of sequential multispore grows.
Selection is most important early in the process and if good genes are bred out, they are gone forever. Archiving original or early generation prints is recommended for preserving heterozygosity for later selective breeding. Continuous isolation of a bad strain with hopes of significant improvement is futile.
Does that help?
This WM's quote has been around for quite some time now. I am not saying it isn't true, but I have some issues understanding it to be honest. Especially when he says:
Quote:
Now, when you do multispore from a single mushroom you randomly get a mix of all the genes. Sticking to our height gene example, you could get two short copies, two tall copies or one of each. Obviously the strains with two short copies will be short and the ones with two tall copies will be tall.
Lets say we liked the short mushrooms so we saved that one and took a spore print for later. In this example the tall version of the height gene is lost to later generations.
But is it really lost? I am not prepared to go into a very detailed explanation of how evolution works, but recessive traits are not lost. Hope he will chime in and clear this up for me cause I am not convinced at all.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777580 - 06/08/15 07:07 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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pf Albino
 AA+
 Pf Redspore
 Pf Classic
 PE
 PE Uncut
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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oregon.trailboy
OTB



Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 1,641
Loc: Oregon
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan] 1
#21777583 - 06/08/15 07:09 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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This thread is pretty heavy! A lot to take in (that's what she said)
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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cube is a cube yea..
next to the PF Redspore cake there is the Pink Buffalo, same environment same everything yet the fruits differ..
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777589 - 06/08/15 07:12 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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A big thing to keep in mind is that we are inbreeding these lineages. This means that while traits are not lost persay, the chances of recurrence is lower due to the loss of heterozygosity. I would also like to point out that AA+ is not albino. Its leucisim and depending on the level of hetrozygosity, its traits are likely to be passed to the next generation. Even with animals, pythons for instance, pigment mutation can carry on for many generations even if bred to other snakes lacking it. The dilution of the genetics will not immediately remove or reset the trait.
Now with mushrooms we are inbreeding them. This means that no new genetic information is being reintroduced. Some is being lowered with every generation of in breeding that occurs. This has also resulted in destabilization of some lines that were propegated too long in this manner. PF classic is a notable example.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21777597 - 06/08/15 07:17 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Come on. Is this supposed to prove something? Random pictures from the shroomery? I thought this was a serious thread. Look, I am not trying to be right, I just want to understand and this won't help anybody understand anything. I can do the same (PE UNCUT) but please let's try to work together in a more productive manner 
(oh and PF classic here )
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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insanemike

Registered: 02/23/14
Posts: 4,272
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21777607 - 06/08/15 07:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Leopard, I am enjoying the read of this debate. It's something our whole community can learn from. My only problem is that you first stated this, "I like facts, not speculations. I like it is, not it seems." and then you state this, "But look more closely into these supposed "varieties". Most of them are albinos (4 out of ten), and I've already said what I think albinos are. "
If you have a thought without substantial evidence to back it up, it must be classified as speculation. If the rules apply to everyone else, they must apply to you also.
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777612 - 06/08/15 07:23 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said: Come on. Is this supposed to prove something? Random pictures from the shroomery? I thought this was a serious thread. Look, I am not trying to be right, I just want to understand and this won't help anybody understand anything. I can do the same (PE UNCUT) but please let's try to work together in a more productive manner 
you are stating something which is true most of those names mean nothing whatsoever
BUT
there are cultures in this hobby with very stable genes, you grow them out and your friends grow them out and their friends them grow out will result in the same appearance from MS. and u can't really deny this.
i can send u a PF redspore print and i put a 100$ on that it will give you the same fruits as those on that picture
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777620 - 06/08/15 07:29 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said: Thanks PW. I like to reformulate your title though
If cube varieties are different from one another, how come nobody can tell which is which?
this is only relying on expression and not all differences will be visual ones.
im sure is you took the individual dna fingerprint/ sequence of any mushroom they will vary just like humans do.
mushrooms from the same relative genepool should have similar sequences but still different.
as will mushroom groups that are isolated geographically from each other. like being Chinese or english both human but genetics have been bottle necked in 1 way or the other because of available genetic material.
could add these to your list of visual differences- malabar for its persistent viel australian for gold tops maza for round heads
what seperates these strains is not that they sometimes dont have normal fruits but that it is more frequent to have fruits of a particular phenotypic expression. an altered gene frequency compared to other substrains
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 07:34 AM)
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: insanemike]
#21777624 - 06/08/15 07:32 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
insanemike said: Leopard, I am enjoying the read of this debate. It's something our whole community can learn from. My only problem is that you first stated this, "I like facts, not speculations. I like it is, not it seems." and then you state this, "But look more closely into these supposed "varieties". Most of them are albinos (4 out of ten), and I've already said what I think albinos are. "
If you have a thought without substantial evidence to back it up, it must be classified as speculation. If the rules apply to everyone else, they must apply to you also.
Thanks Mike, I am enjoining this thread as well, but it's also very time consuming and sometimes I have just to state something without going into a detailed explanation (especially because it looks I am literally the only one who still thinks that a cube is a cube. 4 years ago everybody was saying that a cube is a cube, today they are all disappeared ).
The reason why I think this is a fact, it's simple. Because this is how leucism works in every species as far as I know (if you know something different, please share it with us).
There is another issue here. Terminology. Like PW said, albinos aren't true albinos. We call them albinos because soembody started to call them like that years ago, but it's incorrect.
Maybe somebody else will be able to give you more info on this. There are a few threads on this topic as well.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777627 - 06/08/15 07:35 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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wikipedia? seriously?
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777634 - 06/08/15 07:38 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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a cube is still a cube in terms of potential yeild, potential potency ect within each sub group, nobody is disagreeing with that, but phenotypical expression does change between the groups.
the only exception really is pe as the reliable potency increase.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 07:41 AM)
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21777639 - 06/08/15 07:40 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aero said: wikipedia? seriously?

I posted that link because it seemed to me that he haven't heard the term before (maybe I am wrong though).
You are turning this nice thread in a fight between you and me. Don't do that, come on.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21777642 - 06/08/15 07:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I actually have a PE clone that produced the bunkest shrooms I ever grew. Food for thought
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21777644 - 06/08/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also lets be civil here. This is a great discussion so far and I don't want to see it locked. Thanks to everyone for partaking.
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21777649 - 06/08/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Aero said: wikipedia? seriously?

I posted that link because it seemed to me that he haven't heard the term before (maybe I am wrong though).
You are turning this nice thread in a fight between you and me. Don't do that, come on.
A leucistic rock pigeon. Both the eyes and legs are still of the normal colour.
that pigeon is a mix between a domestic and a feral pigeon ( I've been breeding pigeon, thats not leucism... wikipedia is really not a reliable source
there is no fight here buddy, these are facts
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#21777650 - 06/08/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes but it still has a higher frequency of above average fruit for the species cubensis.
and is noted for that reason
in snakes luecistics can have yellow i think. and is just missing red and black melanin pigments
maybe in mushrooms saying a mushroom is a luecitic as it is white and has black spores it wrong as it should have no genes for black pigment
EDIT scratch that luecistic snake still have black eyes lol seems in different genres they use the terms more loosely
Edited by mustangbob3 (06/08/15 07:54 AM)
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