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Invisiblemustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
I'm a teapot


Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
    #21783709 - 06/09/15 03:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

as we work with spores mainly...

we know different variety's have different gene frequencies.

if we dont have strain/variety names how do we keep different genetic lines seperate and in a way we all can relate/understand?

or do you think this is not important?

if you traded with someone i bet you would expect/want it to have come from the variety you was told it was?


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InvisibleLeopardMan
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #21783714 - 06/09/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
spore color certainly can




Sure, and leucism as well. I said that myself. But not as consistently as you want me to believe.

Possibly other traits can be passed from print to print sometimes (fast col, color, shape etc), but genetic variance will always prevail and in the long run you will be back to square one or near square one when starting from prints.


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You have to die a few times before you can really live.

-Charles Bukowski-


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Invisiblemustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
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Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
    #21783736 - 06/09/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

when we select a fruit to print be break genetic equilibrium and alter genetic frequencies 1 way or the other.

its not a reset.

if you print a fucked up fruit the next generation could have the same amount or more of these fucked up fruits and so on

by selecting you narrow the genepool to the genes  for the spores in that particular fruit.
the next generation is a mix of these marginally narrowed genes.
and it continues each time you select a new fruit to print from.
you alter the gene frequencies either way.


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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/09/15 03:32 PM)


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OfflineAero
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
    #21783738 - 06/09/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LeopardMan said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
spore color certainly can




Sure, and leucism as well. I said that myself. But not as consistently as you want me to believe.

Possibly other traits can be passed from print to print sometimes (fast col, color, shape etc), but genetic variance will always prevail and in the long run you will be back to square one or near square one when starting from prints.




i guess we need Workman to have a say in this regarding the fact he is running a business partly based on the differences of the P.cubensis. the differences that somehow show up in later grows and generations as well. it doesn't go to square


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OfflineAero
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
    #21783753 - 06/09/15 03:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

we all knowthat getting the results from an MS culture won't be as even as it is with an isolate or a clone culture, but lets just say that its predictable due to the fact we discussed previously. and its not a hypothesis this is purely based on experiences


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan] * 1
    #21783754 - 06/09/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LeopardMan said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
spore color certainly can




Sure, and leucism as well. I said that myself. But not as consistently as you want me to believe.

Possibly other traits can be passed from print to print sometimes (fast col, color, shape etc), but genetic variance will always prevail and in the long run you will be back to square one or near square one when starting from prints.




Yet spore color and leucism is also genetic.if it can be passed even somewhat consistenly, then its possible other genetic tendencies can as well. I am not suggesting that potency or yield will be as consistent as cloning or isolation, not even close. But I'm not convinced there can't be tendencies.

One thing that keeps being overlooked is that because we are selfing or inbreeding every time we print,  there is zero way that each generation of prints can have the same depth of heterozygosity as the previous generation. Something is minimized each time narrowing the possibilities. Of course real impact past a half a percent once domestication has been achieved, lets say after the 10th generation, would take many printings in succession, perhaps hundreds.  But its still a factor.


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Invisiblemustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist
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Posts: 1,685
Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21783780 - 06/09/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

exactly what i was getting at about 5 times in this thread  :thumbup:

Quote:

mustangbob3 said:
when we select a fruit to print be break genetic equilibrium and alter genetic frequencies 1 way or the other.

its not a reset.

if you print a fucked up fruit the next generation could have the same amount or more of these fucked up fruits and so on

by selecting you narrow the genepool to the genes  for the spores in that particular fruit.
the next generation is a mix of these marginally narrowed genes.
and it continues each time you select a new fruit to print from.
you alter the gene frequencies either way.




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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/09/15 03:40 PM)


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
    #21783793 - 06/09/15 03:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The position that geographic location and massive amounts of time evolving separately within the same species does not cause observable genetic and phenotypic traits is simply untenable and I can't believe it's even being argued.

A great example of this is Mojave Rattlesnake Venom:

"All rattlesnake venoms are complex cocktails of enzymes and other proteins that vary greatly in composition and effects, not only between species, but also between geographic populations within the same species. C. scutulatus is widely regarded as producing one of the most toxic snake venoms in the New World, based on LD50 studies in laboratory mice.[15] Their potent venom is the result of a presynaptic neurotoxin composed of two distinct peptide subunits.[16] The basic subunit (a phospholipase A2) is mildly toxic and apparently rather common in North American rattlesnake venoms.[17] The less common acidic subunit is not toxic by itself, but in combination with the basic subunit, produces the potent neurotoxin called “Mojave toxin”. Nearly identical neurotoxins have been discovered in five North American rattlesnake species besides C. scutulatus.[17] However, not all populations express both subunits. The venom of many Mojave rattlesnakes from south-central Arizona lacks the acidic subunit and has been designated “venom B,” while Mojave rattlesnakes tested from all other areas express both subunits and have been designated “venom A” populations"
Yes that's from wiki and referenced, bite me.  Talk about potency, there's your potency.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
    #21783807 - 06/09/15 03:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

if you took shiitake 75 took a print. grew MS shiitake on sawdust blocks. took anything that fruited really well and took a spore print. and so on for 10 spore to spore generations. you would reasonably expect that those spore prints of your shiitake would on average grow much better from MS on sawdust blocks than any wild print or even the original print from the shiitake 75 first generation grow. or no?


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OfflineAero
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21783818 - 06/09/15 03:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
if you took shiitake 75 took a print. grew MS shiitake on sawdust blocks. took anything that fruited really well and took a spore print. and so on for 10 spore to spore generations. you would reasonably expect that those spore prints of your shiitake would on average grow much better from MS on sawdust blocks than any wild print or even the original print from the shiitake 75 first generation grow. or no?



:whathesaid:
:magicfingers:


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InvisibleLeopardMan
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21783859 - 06/09/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
if you took shiitake 75 took a print. grew MS shiitake on sawdust blocks. took anything that fruited really well and took a spore print. and so on for 10 spore to spore generations. you would reasonably expect that those spore prints of your shiitake would on average grow much better from MS on sawdust blocks than any wild print or even the original print from the shiitake 75 first generation grow. or no?




No, because it's still a print (and btw growing shiitake from a print is no joke).

Also, think of mutants. Take a print from a mutant fruit. Do you have more chances to get mutant fruits your next grow using that print? No.


Like I said before, and you didn't answer me, even a 1% genetic variance can produce huge differences.

Chimpanzees and bonobo are a proof of what I am saying :2cents:

Anyway we should have more threads like this one :hatsoff:


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You have to die a few times before you can really live.

-Charles Bukowski-


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InvisibleBuck513

Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 5,682
Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
    #21783863 - 06/09/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'm gonna have to smoke a joint or two and read this thread.

Its getting pretty hot and heavy


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InvisibleLeopardMan
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21783865 - 06/09/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

LeopardMan said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
spore color certainly can




Sure, and leucism as well. I said that myself. But not as consistently as you want me to believe.

Possibly other traits can be passed from print to print sometimes (fast col, color, shape etc), but genetic variance will always prevail and in the long run you will be back to square one or near square one when starting from prints.




Yet spore color and leucism is also genetic.if it can be passed even somewhat consistenly, then its possible other genetic tendencies can as well.




:wink:


--------------------



You have to die a few times before you can really live.

-Charles Bukowski-


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InvisibleLeopardMan
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #21783908 - 06/09/15 04:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Machiavelliavore said:
The position that geographic location and massive amounts of time evolving separately within the same species does not cause observable genetic and phenotypic traits is simply untenable and I can't believe it's even being argued.




What about Boletus Edulis then? Growing all across Europe, North America and Asia? Same species, same everything.

Mushrooms are fucking amazing man, don't underestimate them  :mindblown:


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You have to die a few times before you can really live.

-Charles Bukowski-


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Invisiblemush madness
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
    #21783924 - 06/09/15 04:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LeopardMan said:
Quote:

Machiavelliavore said:
The position that geographic location and massive amounts of time evolving separately within the same species does not cause observable genetic and phenotypic traits is simply untenable and I can't believe it's even being argued.




What about Boletus Edulis then? Growing all across Europe, North America and Asia? Same species, same everything.

Mushrooms are fucking amazing man, don't underestimate them  :mindblown:





Pangea


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Invisibleazur
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21783925 - 06/09/15 04:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
There has been a lot of debate over the whole cube is a cube issue. Its not being satisfied in the strain thread. If any mod decides to lock this I understand but a platform for intelligent discussion that is not centered around any individual variety seems to be needed. I don't see this as a discussion about whats better, I see this as a discussion of the role selective/random mutation does or does not play, both in the wild and in domestic settings.

I think this thread could be interesting. Lets play nice and hopefully it won't be locked.




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A cube is NOT a cube.

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FOTTSE!!!
ALL NOOBS READ THIS!!!



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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
    #21783930 - 06/09/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

My hypothesis is that tendencies are possible. Especially with constant inbreeding. Just like how 2 white people can make a white kid. 2 yellow spores could make a mushroom that produces yellow spores. However the 2 white people are still genetically different and will produce an offspring that is genetically different which can produce more genetically different, although similar offspring.

There's no such thing as 2 strains alike just like how there's no 2 people exactly the same. Although people can have genetic tendencies based off of their race, development, and parents, they're still not the same. Just like how 2 strains from the same print can behave differently, but look cosmetically similar.

Essentially there's tendencies that can be carried over, and there's others that won't have any of these tendencies from the same parent, but different tendencies that aren't so obvious to us. I'd love to know the percentages based off of inbreeding, but I highly doubt anyone will know for a long time.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Mad Season] * 1
    #21783953 - 06/09/15 04:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Except with printing and growing from said print its essentially the equivalent of a person maiting with themselves, not another genetically diverse person. Don't start azur :lol:


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InvisibleLeopardMan
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Mad Season]
    #21783975 - 06/09/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:
My hypothesis is that tendencies are possible. Especially with constant inbreeding. Just like how 2 white people can make a white kid. 2 yellow spores could make a mushroom that produces yellow spores. However the 2 white people are still genetically different and will produce an offspring that is genetically different which can produce more genetically different, although similar offspring.

There's no such thing as 2 strains alike just like how there's no 2 people exactly the same. Although people can have genetic tendencies based off of their race, development, and parents, they're still not the same. Just like how 2 strains from the same print can behave differently, but look cosmetically similar.

Essentially there's tendencies that can be carried over, and there's others that won't have any of these tendencies from the same parent, but different tendencies that aren't so obvious to us. I'd love to know the percentages based off of inbreeding, but I highly doubt anyone will know for a long time.




:thumbup: We are almost on the same page, although I tend to think that even if you hypothetically reach a point where you obtain a 1% genetic variance or less, you'll still have a huge amount of different strains showing different traits (if compared to the "master print").


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You have to die a few times before you can really live.

-Charles Bukowski-


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21783992 - 06/09/15 04:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

PW, it is essentially mating with yourself haha. Which is what makes it so hard to know if we were to compare to us. It's kind of like 2 sperm cells mating and making a new person. Would that person be you? Or do each sperm cell throw different genetics?

It's quite easy to say though that each spore isn't the exact same genetic as its parent fruiting body since the mycelium can be different, colonization rates on different subs, yield, and so on.

Leopard, we actually do agree when I said no 2 genetics can be the same in a roundabout way. Although some, and some can even argue a large amount of tendencies are thrown over, not EVERY tendency. Kinda like what you said lol


Edited by Mad Season (06/09/15 04:27 PM)


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