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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21783448 - 06/09/15 02:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
No edibles grower would consider a print as a "strain".
but do they consider different varietys within the same species as a different strain?
i.e white oysters and pink or yellow oysters
if they do then thats where edible and hobby growing differs as we dont rename for each 'new' found defining characteristic instead adopted a umbrella term 'strain' that just gives incite in most cases to its origin, be that a place or person ect
or we would be naming hundreds and hundreds of varieties a year. it keeps it simple and keeps genetic lines separate.
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/09/15 02:29 PM)
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Kizzle]
#21783471 - 06/09/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said: Well I totally agree that mycology is a young science and there's still some controversy. Even what is considered a species is debatable. But I don't see any benefit to try to deter people from calling something when it is by definition a strain. Personally I can think of a single instance where I didn't know what someone was talking just because they used the word strain instead of variety.
Why do you say that? Did you ever cultivate edibles?
Nobody would say that a shitake spore print is a strain. Why should we say that a cube spore print is a strain then?
It doesn't make sense to me.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21783482 - 06/09/15 02:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mustangbob3 said: Quote:
No edibles grower would consider a print as a "strain".
but do they consider different varietys within the same species as a different strain?
i.e white oysters and pink or yellow oysters
Of course. That's the point. Those are strains. There is no confusion whatsoever about that.
No offense, but I am not sure you know what you are talking about.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21783485 - 06/09/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said: I think much of the confusion comes from the fact that cubes are illegal. No edibles grower would consider a print as a "strain".
If you guys wanna call prints say Miley Cyrus and strains Jennifer Lopez, I have no problem 
I am just trying to communicate.
you yourself wrote that u have different cultures acting differently colonizing fruiting differently and so on
people just gave names to these different cultures thats all
I'm sure anyone who has a bit of knowledge and experience in mycology can fix any of those traits if he wishes to. Willsolvem/s peyote culture is an example to this
of course the marketing is playing a role as we all know
and you won't call the golden teacher, orange colored cap fast colonizer rizomorphic prolific fruiter p.cubensis mushroom
they named it golden teacher
names suggest or show or state that those cultures differ from each other in those qualities quote: " They are all different from each other, they all behave in a different way when it comes to colonization times, fruiting, and obviously potency. "
they've been selected for certain traits by whoever did the mycological work they are the same psilocybe cubensis strain, but a different genetical variety due to the selective breading cloning isolating printing u name it i think we can all agree on this
its a great thread but we are going in circles
leopardman is right pasty is right who does the marketing is trying to make more money
i suggest u check this link, instead of funky names these guys gave them edible cultures a letter and a few numbers
http://www.mycelia.be/en/strain-collection/strain-information
these are cultures isolate, I'm only trying to show that the name isn't the problem and as you read it in the previous posts and how genetics works with selective printing its possible to fix certain qualities
end of story
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21783509 - 06/09/15 02:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aero said: you yourself wrote that u have different cultures acting differently colonizing fruiting differently and so on
people just gave names to these different cultures thats all
I'm sure anyone who has a bit of knowledge and experience in mycology can fix any of those traits if he wishes to. Willsolvem/s peyote culture is an example to this
of course the marketing is playing a role as we all know
and you won't call the golden teacher, orange colored cap fast colonizer rizomorphic prolific fruiter p.cubensis mushroom
they named it golden teacher
Oh god. I am starting to feel like I am in a Ionesco's play 
GOLDEN TEACHER IS A PRINT.
If you have a strain, a petri dish with a living culture, then you can name whatever you want.
New adage. A print is not a strain. Repeat. A print is not a strain.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan] 1
#21783513 - 06/09/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
mustangbob3 said: Quote:
No edibles grower would consider a print as a "strain".
but do they consider different varietys within the same species as a different strain?
i.e white oysters and pink or yellow oysters
Of course. That's the point. Those are strains. There is no confusion whatsoever about that.
No offense, but I am not sure you know what you are talking about.
my point is if you want is to be all scientific and accurate concidering we dont all use the same cultures we would all be having to name every chance mating of compatible hyphae.
in a MS tub that would be an impossibility and think of the numbers and number of growers!!
so its not expected to do this so we apply significance to the variety we are growing with its coined name.
whats your solution to keeping different genetic lines seperate?
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Edited by mustangbob3 (06/09/15 02:38 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero] 1
#21783523 - 06/09/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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If someone were to say find a cube with yellow spores. they print it grow it, 10 grows later they find another yellow spore fruit. they print it and do 10 grows and find 3 yellow spore fruits. they print those three, they grow one of those out and do 10 more grows and find 9 yellow spore fruits. they take a print of those pick one do another grow and so on.
somewhere down the line you could reasonably expect to see 99% or more yellow spored fruit bodies from the print you have.
it's still a cube. because it can mate with other cubes and the spores themselves don't know any difference.
how is this visual difference different than any other "linage" even if there is no easy to see difference.
if you took your yellow spore cubes and then put them to agar and got two isolates, one could be potent one could be bunk but still the frequency in their gene set dictates that yellow spore fruits have a much higher chance of occurring like 99.9% of the time.
if you started making yellow spore fuck regular black spore cubes again on a petri dish and got a dikaryotic strain made of monokaryotic of each of the two "varieites" then you can re-introduce some black spore frequency into the gene pool.
just like the amish, they have a much higher chance of some birth defects because they haven't co-mingled with normal population. they've increased the frequency of some traits and drastically decreased the frequency of some others.
the amish are not a different strain, they're a different ethnicit/race/ or some other word like that. an individual person is a strain, if you clone an individual the performance of the cloned person will be more similar than any other two people but the clone person may act very differently because of the role on environment.
I think we all know this, but we get super hung up on the fact that some varieties have a visual difference and some do not.
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21783539 - 06/09/15 02:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Aero said: you yourself wrote that u have different cultures acting differently colonizing fruiting differently and so on
people just gave names to these different cultures thats all
I'm sure anyone who has a bit of knowledge and experience in mycology can fix any of those traits if he wishes to. Willsolvem/s peyote culture is an example to this
of course the marketing is playing a role as we all know
and you won't call the golden teacher, orange colored cap fast colonizer rizomorphic prolific fruiter p.cubensis mushroom
they named it golden teacher
Oh god. I am starting to feel like I am in a Ionesco's play 
GOLDEN TEACHER IS A PRINT.
If you have a strain, a petri dish with a living culture, then you can name whatever you want.
New adage. A print is not a strain. Repeat. A print is not a strain.
none said its a strain I'm only talking about differences that can be passed on from print to print
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21783550 - 06/09/15 02:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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amish cum has a propencity to produce individuals with mental disorders and birth defetcs. what is possible though is if you had amish egg agar you could isolate an athlete einstein, it might be a little easier to isolate one from normal cum, but even amish cum has the potential for a good one.
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: bodhisatta]
#21783556 - 06/09/15 02:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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thats my opinion too
like i said before 'strain' names are all we have to go on. each 'strain' has its own genetic frequencies and this is what defines them
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21783577 - 06/09/15 02:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aero said: I'm only talking about differences that can be passed on from print to print
But this is the point of this whole thread! 
Most of you say that traits like say shape, color, potency, or whatever else can be passed from print to print. I don't.
You are talking like this is a proven fact, but it's not. It's far from being a proven fact. Actually there are some hints of the opposite being true.
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: mustangbob3]
#21783593 - 06/09/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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No that's a variety. A strain is a single set of genetics. Aka 2 spores making a hyphae. You are a strain and say you come from Ireland (idk where you're from) your variety is Irish. A print makes a variety of genetics(strains). Just like how you can make a variety of strains. A single gene in it is a strain. This is what leopard is saying.
We're all human just like how they're all cubensis. I'm sure a lot of us say we're all the same and we all bleed red just like how some say a cube is a cube. Cosmetically and genetically some are better and some are not, but we all have different traits that make us unique. Is a strain of cubensis different from the next? Yes! All that's happening is that one strain out of the millions we see every day was named something thus it was carried on over for convenience sakes.
Realistically every strain can make a new name just like how your kid will have a different name with its own set of genes. He could look cosmetically similar but he won't be exactly the same. No 2 strains are.
Edited by Mad Season (06/09/15 02:59 PM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21783594 - 06/09/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Now given that we have established there are some visual cues that certain varieties will carry over, the real question is are there any less obvious ones? This is where it gets interesting for me. Of all the varieties I have grown, some more consistently produce results i want. Maybe its luck. But what if its not?
Wikidzon has been very impressive. I have never had an issue finding agressive cultures and I have yet to find one that does not fruit like a champ. Many other people have had the same experience. I have yet to see a lackluster grow from it. B+ on the other hand has been very hit or miss. I have found great stuff with it and lots of crap.
Again its all anecdotal. It might even be that how it was dealt with between being designated B+ and the hands it went through before getting to me might play a part. I would like to understand more. This is a big part of the appeal.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#21783625 - 06/09/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: If someone were to say find a cube with yellow spores. they print it grow it, 10 grows later they find another yellow spore fruit. they print it and do 10 grows and find 3 yellow spore fruits. they print those three, they grow one of those out and do 10 more grows and find 9 yellow spore fruits. they take a print of those pick one do another grow and so on.
somewhere down the line you could reasonably expect to see 99% or more yellow spored fruit bodies from the print you have.
I think you are making up those numbers and you are presenting them like they are a sure thing. 99%? How do you know that?
Besides the thing you guys do not seem to realize is that even if those numbers were a proven fact (and they are not as far as I know), a 1% variance in the gene pool can produce an enormous amount of differences.
Chimpanzee share 99% of the genome with us
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 18 hours, 40 minutes
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21783630 - 06/09/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I totally agree that mycology is a young science and there's still some controversy. Even what is considered a species is debatable. But I don't see any benefit to try to deter people from calling something when it is by definition a strain. Personally I can think of a single instance where I didn't know what someone was talking just because they used the word strain instead of variety.
Why do you say that? Did you ever cultivate edibles?
Nobody would say that a shitake spore print is a strain. Why should we say that a cube spore print is a strain then?
It doesn't make sense to me.
Perhaps not but that's simply what they choose to call it, or rather to not call it. I'm just saying with actives it is common for spores which have descended from a single mushroom, even over generations, to be referred to as a strain and it's hard to justify saying that's wrong since it fits the definition of strain.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Mad Season]
#21783634 - 06/09/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: No that's a variety. A strain is a single set of genetics. Aka 2 spores making a hyphae. You are a strain and say you come from Ireland (idk where you're from) your variety is Irish. A print makes a variety of genetics(strains). Just like how you can make a variety of strains. A single gene in it is a strain. This is what leopard is saying.
Thank you lord
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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Aero
Orea


Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 2,253
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21783638 - 06/09/15 02:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Aero said: I'm only talking about differences that can be passed on from print to print
But this is the point of this whole thread! 
Most of you say that traits like say shape, color, potency, or whatever else can be passed from print to print. I don't.
You are talking like this is a proven fact, but it's not. It's far from being a proven fact. Actually there are some hints of the opposite being true.
i send u 3 prints okay? number 1 number 2 number 3
u grow them out all 3
under the very same conditions they should produce the same amount of fruit with the same potency and the same look due to the fact its p.cubensis. this is what you say
however you'll notice differences in the 3 tray shape, speed, yield etc
you print these 3 trays label them with the same number again
1 2 3
if what u are saying is true, from those prints they should produce the same looking mushrooms same speed etc due to the fact they are p.cubensis and printing is resetting the whole gene pool
yet they will differ
explain this to me
-------------------- SPREAD THE SPORES
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mustangbob3
Mad Myrmecologist



Registered: 10/15/14
Posts: 1,685
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Mad Season]
#21783656 - 06/09/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: No that's a variety. A strain is a single set of genetics. Aka 2 spores making a hyphae. You are a strain and say you come from Ireland (idk where you're from) your variety is Irish. A print makes a variety of genetics(strains). Just like how you can make a variety of strains. A single gene in it is a strain. This is what leopard is saying.
We're all human just like how they're all cubensis. I'm sure a lot of us say we're all the same and we all bleed red just like how some say a cube is a cube. Cosmetically and genetically some are better and some are not, but we all have different traits that make us unique. Is a strain of cubensis different from the next? Yes! All that's happening is that one strain out of the millions we see every day was named something thus it was carried on over for convenience sakes.
Realistically every strain can make a new name just like how your kid will have a different name with its own set of genes. He could look cosmetically similar but he won't be exactly the same. No 2 strains are.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,463
Loc: A tree house
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: Aero]
#21783678 - 06/09/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aero said:
Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Aero said: I'm only talking about differences that can be passed on from print to print
But this is the point of this whole thread! 
Most of you say that traits like say shape, color, potency, or whatever else can be passed from print to print. I don't.
You are talking like this is a proven fact, but it's not. It's far from being a proven fact. Actually there are some hints of the opposite being true.
i send u 3 prints okay? number 1 number 2 number 3
u grow them out all 3
under the very same conditions they should produce the same amount of fruit with the same potency and the same look due to the fact its p.cubensis. this is what you say
however you'll notice differences in the 3 tray shape, speed, yield etc
you print these 3 trays label them with the same number again
1 2 3
if what u are saying is true, from those prints they should produce the same looking mushrooms same speed etc due to the fact they are p.cubensis and printing is resetting the whole gene pool
yet they will differ
explain this to me
Now I am sure you don't know what you are talking about and you didn't understand a single word I said. Sorry I can't answer everybody, I am sweating right now
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You have to die a few times before you can really live. -Charles Bukowski-
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: If a cube is a cube then what about PE? [Re: LeopardMan]
#21783680 - 06/09/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeopardMan said:
Quote:
Aero said: I'm only talking about differences that can be passed on from print to print
But this is the point of this whole thread! 
Most of you say that traits like say shape, color, potency, or whatever else can be passed from print to print. I don't.
You are talking like this is a proven fact, but it's not. It's far from being a proven fact. Actually there are some hints of the opposite being true.
spore color certainly can
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