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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: maddchef]
    #21775665 - 06/07/15 07:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

endospores are formed routinely.


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21775689 - 06/07/15 07:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

News to me. Everything I've ever read says it really only happens when there is a lack of nutrients or other extreme conditions that would otherwise kill the vegetative form of the organism.


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21775695 - 06/07/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Endospores ARE bacteria, just a dormant form with a protective wrapping, if you will, that allows it to survive for long periods of time and in varying temperatures, including high heat, although sufficient heat and/or time will eventually destroy them.

The idea of a soak is to get them to "hatch" where they then are essentially just regular bacteria and can be killed much more easily ;?D


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: maddchef]
    #21775698 - 06/07/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

it's not all or nothing like that. when there's a lack of nutrients or some other unfavorable condition the percentage of endospores formed by the population will be very high. during vegetative growth on a suitable medium endospore creation will be very low but still will be there.

some species are circadian in their endospore production. some are more reliant on stress factors.


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: fearnoevil]
    #21775700 - 06/07/15 07:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Who said endospores weren't bacteria? Lol


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: maddchef]
    #21775709 - 06/07/15 07:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup: and bod clears up what I was wondering in a different thread lol.


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: maddchef]
    #21775716 - 06/07/15 07:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

everyone already knows all of that

Quote:


The idea of a soak is to get them to "hatch" where they then are essentially just regular bacteria and can be killed much more easily



this is under scrutiny since there's only RR quotes and parroting to back it up. does the soak actually germinate more than it creates, does the soak actually germinate a significant amount relative to no soak methods, etc.. those quantitative measurements are unknown.


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21775845 - 06/07/15 08:16 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

The method of simply putting grains and water in a jar to pressure cook is how we did it for decades.  We also had to deal with clumpy grains, a higher fail ratio, and slower colonization due to all the grain dust and dirt. 
RR




Pasty, I assume that you arent experiencing these kinds of problems or you would have switched over to the soak method. Could you provide a rebuttal, and perhaps also explain how you prepare your grains?


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: DeadPhan]
    #21775881 - 06/07/15 08:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DeadPhan said:
Ive seen it done before. Where you just add x amount of water to a jar with dry grain and throw right in the pressure cooker. If so whats you thoughts on it  experiences?  I certainly love the tried and true method of soaking before cooking but there are times i could realy use saving a day having to soak and just get right to it. Anyone?





I do a modified version of Fooman's no soak.. Although it is nothing like what you are trying to describe.

I have been trying 2 different ways lately.  I like both and both work so here they go.


I rinse my grain in a giant pot, once it is clean enough I just fill the pot with water and make sure there is no WBS on the side of the pot.

I add gypsum/lime and bring to a boil for 30 seconds then shut off the heat and let soak for 1-2 hours.

Alternative method I use is.. 

I boil water with out the grains in it, then add the grains after it comes to a boil and let soak for 1-2 hours. 

My seed looks great every time and I believe it has to be the quickest way to hydrate your grains properly in the least amount of time.


Some shots of my WBS.  Notice none of them are broken open.




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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21775890 - 06/07/15 08:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Why do you think they exist as endospores? They are "dormant" because conditions are not ideal for them to live, and with these particular types of bacterium, at least the ones we are worried about when it comes to mycology, it is often either a lack of moisture and/or temps.  So soaking them fools the endospores into "thinking" (yes I realize that is a bit of anthropomorphizing, lol) that conditions are now within the range for its survival, and so they "hatch" for lack of a better word.  Whether or not you choose to believe that this is the mechanism involved, well you can believe what you want, but as long as I've been pursuing this hobby, THAT is the common wisdom, and until I read something that definitively disproves that, then I will continue to follow it.  Clear enough?

And while we're on the topic, where do you get the idea that soaking actually creates MORE endospores???  More bacteria, sure because the environment is closer to (don't want to assume that it's perfect) the conditions which allow the bacteria in question reproduce and flourish.  But lets say a particular bacteria preferred dry and cool conditions, then I suppose being submerged in water might indeed stimulate them into forming endospores, but then that wouldn't matter because obviously those particular pathogens would not be anything we, as mycologists, would worry about, would it?


Edited by fearnoevil (06/07/15 08:31 PM)


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #21775905 - 06/07/15 08:28 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I have done no soak grains with great success. 1 cup wheat with 3/4 cup of water and pc as the norm and it would come out perfect everytime.


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: insanemike]
    #21775930 - 06/07/15 08:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Wheat I can see since it is relatively soft "shelled". Milo on the other hand not so much.

I bring my grains just to a boil as well then remove from heat for an hour or so but I rinse mine afterwards and allow to drip dry for 8ish hours. I only rinse after because the boil seems to make everything super starchy especially if you have any cracked corn in your mix.


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: maddchef]
    #21775935 - 06/07/15 08:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

maddchef said:
Wheat I can see since it is relatively soft "shelled". Milo on the other hand not so much.

I bring my grains just to a boil as well then remove from heat for an hour or so but I rinse mine afterwards and allow to drip dry for 8ish hours. I only rinse after because the boil seems to make everything super starchy especially if you have any cracked corn in your mix.





I rinse mine with cold water and aggressively bang out all the water and load into jars with in seconds of straining all the water out.


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #21775953 - 06/07/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Well I drain using heavy duty mesh laundry bags since I prep more than a collander full. I have been informed for my edibles I should just build a 2x4 frame and line it with mesh screen.


--------------------
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

:havesomescience:


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Invisibleinsanemike

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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: maddchef]
    #21775958 - 06/07/15 08:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I've found that milo is very easy to mess up. I would propably prep it as I do with whole brown rice. Let it hydrate only half way, strain only until water stops dripping and let the residual water on the hull finish hydrating it during the pc run.


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: insanemike]
    #21775974 - 06/07/15 08:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)



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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #21776080 - 06/07/15 09:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

The method of simply putting grains and water in a jar to pressure cook is how we did it for decades.  We also had to deal with clumpy grains, a higher fail ratio, and slower colonization due to all the grain dust and dirt. 
RR




Pasty, I assume that you arent experiencing these kinds of problems or you would have switched over to the soak method. Could you provide a rebuttal, and perhaps also explain how you prepare your grains?




Well the method I use depends on the grain i use. Millet or WBS is prepped with Foomans tek and for those small size grains its the shit. Nothing else comes close. For rye or wheat I like to simmer carefully for about an hour with constant checking to ensure no bursting. Oats I just get em in the water and boil em good. They are near impossible to fuck up.

Also I find that grain dust is nothing to worry about. Clumping happens from spilled starch and exploded grains. The dust and dirt might create the slightest of clumping effects but its easy to bump my hand against it once and it all comes apart with ease.

There is something else that liquid users might find interesting. When inoculating with LI or LC I have found without fail that the earliest recovery occurs in/on the dust left behind. Seems to trap the myc and encourage faster recovery. Given RR's well documented hate for liquids I am not surprised he never mentioned it. But its been my experience so far.

If anyone doubts me I encourage them to do a single quarts worth without a rinse or a soak and see how it stacks up. Bet you never rinse grain again. If I'm wrong your only out a single quart of grain. Small taters.


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InvisibleMikeBearPig
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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21776116 - 06/07/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

The method of simply putting grains and water in a jar to pressure cook is how we did it for decades.  We also had to deal with clumpy grains, a higher fail ratio, and slower colonization due to all the grain dust and dirt. 
RR




Pasty, I assume that you arent experiencing these kinds of problems or you would have switched over to the soak method. Could you provide a rebuttal, and perhaps also explain how you prepare your grains?




Well the method I use depends on the grain i use. Millet or WBS is prepped with Foomans tek and for those small size grains its the shit. Nothing else comes close. For rye or wheat I like to simmer carefully for about an hour with constant checking to ensure no bursting. Oats I just get em in the water and boil em good. They are near impossible to fuck up.

Also I find that grain dust is nothing to worry about. Clumping happens from spilled starch and exploded grains. The dust and dirt might create the slightest of clumping effects but its easy to bump my hand against it once and it all comes apart with ease.

There is something else that liquid users might find interesting. When inoculating with LI or LC I have found without fail that the earliest recovery occurs in/on the dust left behind. Seems to trap the myc and encourage faster recovery. Given RR's well documented hate for liquids I am not surprised he never mentioned it. But its been my experience so far.

If anyone doubts me I encourage them to do a single quarts worth without a rinse or a soak and see how it stacks up. Bet you never rinse grain again. If I'm wrong your only out a single quart of grain. Small taters.





I am just going to take this and run with it,  Rinsing the grain is the worst part for me. 

Although my mix i use has a high amount of black sunflower seeds that I use the soak to sort out. 

There is quite a bit of them.. Should i even worry about them?


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: MikeBearPig]
    #21776132 - 06/07/15 09:16 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I don't really use WBS much so I can't really say. For me the sunflower seeds are too oily so I might try and get them out. But screw dumping loads of water over and over. I used to do it too and one day I had enough and said fuck it, I gonna see what happens. I never looked back.


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Re: Do any of you do a no soak prep for grain? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21776189 - 06/07/15 09:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Sunflower seeds should be fine. I have successfully grown spawn on quarts of safflower seeds and chickpeas. So I don't think there are too many types of seeds or grain that won't work. It usually comes down to ease of prep and costs being the biggest determining factors when it comes to propagating spawn.


Edited by insanemike (06/07/15 09:27 PM)


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