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InvisiblehTx
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Intelligent Design
    #21772247 - 06/06/15 10:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

My studies of biology and evolution have lead me to believe in a sort of intelligent design.
Not designed by "God" but by DNA.
The evidence in favor of this view has really stacked in the past few years.
The leap of logic as it pertains to evolution and DNA, however, is still lacking.

Well, what say you?

Is evolution a blind process guided by natural selection?

Or something else entirely?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21772274 - 06/06/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Is evolution a blind process guided by natural selection?




This has already been answered by mountains of biological/environmental evidence and confirmed by AI learning. But I am sure you will overturn this and find your name echoed in the halls of scientific greats.

Or not.

:whippedcreamhead:


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21772287 - 06/06/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, what about epigenetics?

What about that mountain of evidence?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21772292 - 06/06/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You studied evolution and claim DNA is god?  Did you pass the class?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21772358 - 06/06/15 11:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Not God, but an intelligent architect.
And yes, i was top of my class.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx] * 1
    #21772422 - 06/06/15 11:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)



Congratulations!


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InvisibleJufin
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21772615 - 06/07/15 01:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
My studies of biology and evolution have lead me to believe in a sort of intelligent design.
Not designed by "God" but by DNA.
The evidence in favor of this view has really stacked in the past few years.
The leap of logic as it pertains to evolution and DNA, however, is still lacking.

Well, what say you?

Is evolution a blind process guided by natural selection?

Or something else entirely?



Are you saying that DNA causes mutations to occur which become successful?  Therefore not being mutations but purposeful evolutions?

It's a blind process, but natural selection itself is guided by the instinct to survive.  The effective traits reproduce and the ineffective are bred out.  It's also an instinct to continue the path of evolution.  That's why war happens; one group of humans wants more power, which means bringing down another group of humans, which keeps the successful group breeding on and therefore those traits becoming effective.  Humans are the dominant life form on the planet right now.  When I don't conform to the evolutionary path, I get severely depressed.  Evolution has forced itself upon me.  I either evolve or I die.  Evolution is constant.

What about mutations that have no perceivable benefit?  For example, I have a foot fetish.  I can't figure out how it benefits evolution.  I'm very happy with it, because it's another source of sexual energy.  But what if it's just a random mutation that occurred and somehow survived down the line, as a byproduct of other successful mutations?


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Jufin] * 1
    #21772627 - 06/07/15 01:09 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

If you ask about my personal faith  then I don't believe in coincidences

I don't see any coincidences with man in this world, and not with our bodies either

We attact who we are
Spirit builds the body

that's my view
so you could say "intelligent design of the one hive mind"

but while in this body there are some rules, and other rules you can break
you can be free in your thoughts, but you have to adhere to the physical reality somewhat - i.e. you can get a blood clot


but I don't think it happens unless it's supposed to happen, nothing does
the world is built exactly as it should be, no atom is in the wrong place


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21772652 - 06/07/15 01:25 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
My studies of biology and evolution have lead me to believe in a sort of intelligent design.
Not designed by "God" but by DNA.
The evidence in favor of this view has really stacked in the past few years.
The leap of logic as it pertains to evolution and DNA, however, is still lacking.

Well, what say you?

Is evolution a blind process guided by natural selection?

Or something else entirely?





Either way, everything that exists(including living things)conforms to the laws of physics.  so, IMO the question of intelligent design pertains more to physics than biology.  In other words, even if otherwise undirected, evolution is directed by the limitations of the physical laws.

as to the question of DNA possibly being self aware and self determined, i think its a good one, and i would like see some research on the topic


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21772658 - 06/07/15 01:29 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Your body starts from one cell

So your dna must be intelligent, it assembles your whole body

Every cell in your body has the whole program, it knows how your eyes look, how you should speak (your brain) etc.

Pretty mindboogling to think about, that you got your mind in every cell


But there are of course more issues to this, what is 'intelligence'
1 is it self aware (the dna)
2 how do we measure self aware
3 is it just a program/computer doing a program

even if it is just a machine it is amazing


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782026 - 06/09/15 07:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:

Not designed by "God" but by DNA.
The evidence in favor of this view has really stacked in the past few years.




Like what? What evidence is there to suggest that DNA designs in a non-random manner?

If this was the case then wouldn't we be more efficient.. at everything.. and wouldn't evolution be occuring much faster than it already is.. If DNA is designing life intelligently through evolution, then why does it screw up so often?... : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4238NN8HMgQ

Quote:

lessismore said:

Spirit builds the body




Why is it that you believe this?

Quote:

lessismore said:

Pretty mindboogling to think about, that you got your mind in every cell




I am assuming that by 'mind' you mean consciousness or something to do with consciousness. In which case, you do not have your mind in every cell. You have a bunch of amino acids arranged and categorized neatly into some proteins. Each cell contains lots of information, but I don't see how you can call this a 'mind.'

Quote:

lessismore said:

But there are of course more issues to this, what is 'intelligence'
1 is it self aware (the dna)
2 how do we measure self aware
3 is it just a program/computer doing a program

even if it is just a machine it is amazing




1. No, this would mean it is conscious, and we have every reason to believe that consciousness is the product of information processing at the level of the brain.

2. See above (consciousness). We are aware of ourselves, rocks are not, the key difference that provides this awareness is consciousness.

3. I don't understand the question


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21782091 - 06/09/15 08:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:


1. No, this would mean it is conscious, and we have every reason to believe that consciousness is the product of information processing at the level of the brain.

2. See above (consciousness). We are aware of ourselves, rocks are not, the key difference that provides this awareness is consciousness.








What makes you say rocks are not self aware?;-)

yes stupid question, but I love making people nihilists


and 1. your reason to believe so is that you only looked at one side of things
no science project ever as far as I know looked into if DNA could be conscious (self aware)


but certain things makes it look self aware, i.e. that it can repair itself all the time
and cells look self aware too, they detect mutations and fix them


how is that not conscious?
how do you define conscious / self aware?
how can you be sure?

so many questions..
are humans conscious? - or are we just a computer program doing what we're ment to do


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782108 - 06/09/15 08:23 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

obviously not all humans are aware of their program, so is it only some humans that are conscious?

how conscious should one be to be conscious?

is it ok to be a program, to be intelligent( i.e. a cell , or a computer program) ?

what is the level of acceptable self awareness to you to make something intelligent?


(any cell can communicate with any other cell in the body via transporter molecules, is that not intelligence / self awareness  - or is it just a program?)


Edited by lessismore (06/09/15 08:37 AM)


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782227 - 06/09/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What makes you say rocks are not self aware?;-)

yes stupid question, but I love making people nihilists




It's theoretically possible, but there is no reason to believe that they are conscious.

Quote:

and 1. your reason to believe so is that you only looked at one side of things
no science project ever as far as I know looked into if DNA could be conscious (self aware)




What reason do we have that suggests it might be conscious? DNA is not made of neurons and electromagnetic energy, which, so far, is the only physical structure we know of that can produce consciousness.

Quote:

but certain things makes it look self aware, i.e. that it can repair itself all the time
and cells look self aware too, they detect mutations and fix them




Electrons act differently when they are observed, than when they are no observed, this does not mean they are conscious. Cells create mutations which lead to cancer. Why not repair themselves every time? I don't know enough cell biology to really get into the details here.

Quote:

how is that not conscious?
how do you define conscious / self aware?
how can you be sure?
so many questions..
are humans conscious? - or are we just a computer program doing what we're ment to do

obviously not all humans are aware of their program, so is it only some humans that are conscious?




Consciousness is the existence of subjectivity. What is it like to be an elephant? If you can answer this question with anything at all, then elephants are conscious. What it is like to be you at this very moment? Is it like something to be you? Is it like something to see the colors you are seeing, and hear the sounds you are hearing? Then you are conscious. What is it like to be a rock? It is likely not like anything to be a rock, and hence, rocks are not conscious.
Of course humans are conscious, it is even possible that we are "computer program doing what we're ment to do" and also conscious. The very fact that it is like something to be you at this very moment, means that you are conscious. The existence of your consciousness may be the only thing that you can ever be certain of.

Quote:

how conscious should one be to be conscious?




Consciousness is a spectrum, from less comprehensive states of awareness to more comprehensive states of awareness. If there is any awareness at all, then there is consciousness. It is possible that every animal with neurons, no matter how few, is conscious.

Quote:

is it ok to be a program, to be intelligent( i.e. a cell , or a computer program) ?




I don't understand the question. Is it 'ok'? What does that mean?

Quote:

what is the level of acceptable self awareness to you to make something intelligent?




Intelligence is a far more complex subject. It is hard to measure awareness and it is hard to measure intelligence. Are the works of Shakespeare a greater or lesser display of intelligence than the scientific theories put forward by Newton? It is extremely difficult, and maybe even impossible, even in principle, to answer such questions.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21782276 - 06/09/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

One quick objection to your writing...

ALL is made of electromagnetic energy, everything in this universe

every atom in the universe is

so every atom in the universe is as electromagnetic as your brain.... - just in a different way, it might not have synapses, instead it has an electromagnetic potential to store its energy data (electron configurations)

atoms are ruled by electromagnetism, so DNA is too.

It seems DNA has data storage like a computer, and a program like a computer, and it can even fix random errors too like an advanced computer + it is electromagnetic (its atoms are and its folding etc- thats why it spirals as a double helix most likely).

the question whether it is self aware remains unsolved ;-)


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782321 - 06/09/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You may be right about the prevalence of electromagnetic energy, I really don't know enough about it to say.

And the question will always remain unsolved, the only consciousness that you will ever know exists is your own:

" The only proof that it is like something to be you at this moment is the fact (obvious only to you) that it is like something to be you."

- Sam Harris


But if we take a leap forward from solipsism, then it seems quite reasonable that neurons are a good starting point for consciousness.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21782359 - 06/09/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
You may be right about the prevalence of electromagnetic energy, I really don't know enough about it to say.

And the question will always remain unsolved, the only consciousness that you will ever know exists is your own:

" The only proof that it is like something to be you at this moment is the fact (obvious only to you) that it is like something to be you."

- Sam Harris


But if we take a leap forward from solipsism, then it seems quite reasonable that neurons are a good starting point for consciousness.





The more I think about it, the less I am sure if I am conscious...

Maybe I'm just an automatic program running inside a thought matrix , doing what I'm supposed to do, like everyone else

All running our hidden program ( the program which we are not fully aware of)

But some are aware of the program, yet they are rarely aware of the full program.

Even if they are aware of that program, it seems they do what the program tells them to do

You can only run against your program for so long, then you become miserable it seems

Is free will real?

How can I be sure that what I do , wasn't part of my program?

To be sure I have free will, I need access to the full sourcecode... But that isn't possible it seems... you can only see a subset of it

How can we be truly free without owning our own minds 100%?


Edited by lessismore (06/09/15 09:40 AM)


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782417 - 06/09/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

our subconscious is hidden from us and it controls every aspect of our lives!  - it directs every thought we have... - and most people are not aware, even those that are aware are not aware to the full extent of it, because you cannot know your subconscious fully it seems, there is always stuff hidden - so are you really thinking your own thoughts?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782439 - 06/09/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

There was a thread on free will not too long ago, you should check it out.

I think that free will's lack of existence is quite obvious. I don't even think that free will is even theoretically possible. But that has nothing to do with being consciousness. The very existence of subjectivity is consciousness. We do not possess any freedom of will and yet we are conscious. Awareness means consciousness.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782450 - 06/09/15 09:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The more I think about it, the less I am sure if I am conscious...





No argument here.

:noddingbaby:


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21783134 - 06/09/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Not God, but an intelligent architect.


:ohyou:


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21783474 - 06/09/15 02:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Secondorder, you are hitting the nail on the head in this thread.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Jufin]
    #21785182 - 06/09/15 07:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yes Jufin, i am saying beneficial mutations are designed by DNA, and that it ultimately behaves in an intelligent and purposeful way.


How is it that out of an infinite realm of random mutation possibilities, with no information from the environment, a beneficial mutation can occur to create such diverse populations of life and intelligence?

Because according to Darwinism, this is whats occuring.
However, in the past 20 years, evidence has been piling up that DNA does recieve input from the environment and alters gene networks accordingly.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21785356 - 06/09/15 08:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

If the DNA is so intelligent, why did it mutate into a panda?  An intelligent designer wouldn't design a creature that is a carnivore yet eats un-nutritious bamboo and doesn't like to mate.  What is so intelligent about that design? 

Was the DNA for animals that have gone extinct too stupid to realize?  Why didn't the dodo bird's DNA mutate back into flight so they could survive hunting?  If it was intelligent it would have.

That is a real linch pin in natural selection, it can only select from genes that happened to mutate and it can only optimize for the current fitness landscape, not the future one its going to live in.  Intelligence wouldn't be constrained by that.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: DieCommie]
    #21785640 - 06/09/15 09:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

DNA is just a long code of genes which codes for proteins to make an organism.  I don't understand where an "intelligent designer" aka god comes into the picture.  I thought the fact of evolution cleared that up nicely.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21785992 - 06/09/15 10:45 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Commie,
Diversity of life increasing overall complexity and organization.
A dodo bird may have been created as easy food for another predator, and pandas are well, pretty dumb, but perhaps there is an unseen reason behind the bamboo eating in relation to the whole of life and where its going.

The emergence of human intelligence, imo, is a magnification of what's really going on with DNA in relation to complexity theory.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21786008 - 06/09/15 10:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
DNA is just a long code of genes which codes for proteins to make an organism.  I don't understand where an "intelligent designer" aka god comes into the picture.  I thought the fact of evolution cleared that up nicely.



DNA alters its code in real-time, intelligently for adaption, and these changes are inheritable.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786013 - 06/09/15 10:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The emergence of human beings is clearly from the line of previous members of the homo genus.  There is no missing link the fossil record shows exactly where we came.  It just so happens no other members of the homo genus are alive, so in that respect we look special and different.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786016 - 06/09/15 10:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

This is a fact and has only just recently (within the past year) been discovered.
it was long thought that DNA remained relatively stable throughout an organisms life, thanks to Darwinism.

However, this is clearly not the case.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786027 - 06/09/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
DNA alters its code in real-time, intelligently for adaption, and these changes are inheritable.



DNA doesn't alter anything, mutations are random.  Did you learn anything in this alleged class you allegedly finished top of?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21786036 - 06/09/15 10:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
The emergence of human beings is clearly from the line of previous members of the homo genus.  There is no missing link the fossil record shows exactly where we came.  It just so happens no other members of the homo genus are alive, so in that respect we look special and different.



We create physical adaptions in the form of technology and tools.

In that respect, we became a sort of singularity of change previously unseen on the planet.
AI and transhumanism will bring about the next singular change.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786045 - 06/09/15 10:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

That science fiction has nothing to do with your previous post.  Are you just thinking out loud here?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21786079 - 06/09/15 11:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Caution: Entering hTxLand.

:magicfingers:


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21786130 - 06/09/15 11:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

hTx said:
DNA alters its code in real-time, intelligently for adaption, and these changes are inheritable.



DNA doesn't alter anything, mutations are random.  Did you learn anything in this alleged class you allegedly finished top of?



You are wrong.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150427112559.htm
""We used to think that once a cell reaches full maturation, its DNA is totally stable, including the molecular tags attached to it to control its genes and maintain the cell's identity," says Hongjun Song, Ph.D., a professor of neurology and neuroscience in the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine's Institute for Cell Engineering. "This research shows that some cells actually alter their DNA all the time, just to perform everyday functions."

Did you know that there is no evidence that beneficial mutations are completely random?


That we only think that because that is what fits the model laid out by Darwin?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786142 - 06/09/15 11:16 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Mutations aren't beneficial they are random, they are neither good or bad. Hence RANDOM MUTATION.  Have you listened to a single word I have said?  Or are you surfing google for something to take out of context and claim as proof?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21786183 - 06/09/15 11:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I feel sad seeing the level of edumacation devolving before my eyes. :sadyes:


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21786218 - 06/09/15 11:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You mad bro?

Your point that DNA doesn't alter anything has been shown as completely false, now you are really showing your ignorance by claiming that some mutations are not beneficial.
It has been known for decades in bacteria and phage that mutations can occur in clusters and in hotspots that occur in particular sequence contexts.

What is usually meant by randomness with respect to mutagenesis is that it seems mutations occur without regard to their immediate adaptive value. Their location and frequency has been long known to be non-random.

The fact that most mutations are not beneficial to an organism/species is evidence that most mutations are simply a fuck-up of letter sequence in DNA, in fact, thats exactly what a mutation is, hence the seeming randomness behind it.

Now, how is it that a fuck-up of sequencing leads to a beneficial trait?

That has yet to be explained by modern biology.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786321 - 06/09/15 11:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

..."This research shows that some cells actually alter their DNA all the time, just to perform everyday functions."




I don't have a deep enough understanding of cell biology to really understand what the article is saying, but let me think out loud here for a second: Let's say that cells have the ability to "alter their DNA all the time, just to perform everyday functions." Wouldn't this ability itself be the product of a random mutation? Wouldn't the ability to alter DNA, be governed by information kept in the DNA, which would have had to randomly mutate into the DNA at some point? Anything that the cell can do, or that DNA can do, must be the product of a former random mutation right? Or are you claiming that DNA sprung into existence with the ability to intelligently guide its own mutations?

Quote:

Did you know that there is no evidence that beneficial mutations are completely random?


That we only think that because that is what fits the model laid out by Darwin?




You seem to be ignoring one of the main points put forward in this thread. I would like you to answer, or to try your best to answer the following questions, so that we can further understand your view:

1) If DNA is intelligent, and guides its own mutations toward some desired end, then why are the vast majority of mutations completely miserable, unsuccessful, un-beneficial fuck-ups?

2) Why do mutations that cause cancer happen so often? Why do mutations cause still-borns and birth defects so often? If DNA design is so intelligent, then why does it seem so unintelligent?

3) If DNA doesn't require reproduction to change, and can alter itself throughout our lifetime "in real-time", then why is it that we die? Why doesn't DNA stop letting itself degrade and turn us into immortal ever-improving super-organisms? Surely if DNA can alter itself in real time, then it wouldn't take billions of years (making mistakes at every turn and causing countless unnecessary suffering and deaths) to reach it's end goal would it?

Please don't ignore these questions any longer, for they are the key to us understanding your position, and coming to a reasonable conclusion together.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786379 - 06/10/15 12:09 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

now you are really showing your ignorance by claiming that some mutations are not beneficial.




Quote:

The fact that most mutations are not beneficial to an organism/species...




Is it just me, or is this a stark self-contradiction?

Quote:

Now, how is it that a fuck-up of sequencing leads to a beneficial trait?

That has yet to be explained by modern biology.




If something makes enough mistakes, eventually it will stumble across a mistake that benefits it. When an organism reproduces, the offspring don't have identical DNA. Some will have DNA which will codes for proteins that will benefit the organism's survival. Some will have different DNA, that codes for proteins that will be a detriment to the organisms survival. If a gazelle has, say, five offspring, some will be faster runners than others, based on differences in their DNA, caused by random mutations. Some will be slower than their mother, some faster, because they all received random DNA mutations, some of which improve their likelihood of survival and some of which detract from their likelihood of survival.
The reason evolution by natural selection has been central to biology for so long is that it is extremely simple to understand, yet powerful enough to explain so much depth and complexity within biology. I continue to fail to see your reasons for rejecting it.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21786396 - 06/10/15 12:11 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Is it just me, or is this a stark self-contradiction?





Coherency and consistency are not part of the hTx paradigm.

:goat:


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21786430 - 06/10/15 12:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wouldn't this ability itself be the product of a random mutation? Wouldn't the ability to alter DNA, be governed by information kept in the DNA, which would have had to randomly mutate into the DNA at some point? Anything that the cell can do, or that DNA can do, must be the product of a former random mutation right? Or are you claiming that DNA sprung into existence with the ability to intelligently guide its own mutations?




What the article is saying, is that DNA seems to be recording information from its environment and alters itself in order to adapt.
Just because this discovery was recent, doesn't mean it hasn't always been this way.
As i said before, most mutations are detrimental, nonsensical, or neutral to the organism because they are a non-repaired fuck-up of letter sequencing in DNA. According to Darwinism, these fuck-ups occasionally produce novel beneficial sequences and subsequent traits and these novel traits are selected by the environment according to fitness.

I think that is pretty much nonsense.
It seems much more logical to propose that DNA takes information received from its environment and purposefully sequences itself with respects towards a beneficial mutation. Meaning, DNA behaves intelligently.

The answer to questions 1 and 2 are answered above.

and..
Quote:

If DNA doesn't require reproduction to change, and can alter itself throughout our lifetime "in real-time", then why is it that we die? Why doesn't DNA stop letting itself degrade and turn us into immortal ever-improving super-organisms? Surely if DNA can alter itself in real time, then it wouldn't take billions of years (making mistakes at every turn and causing countless unnecessary suffering and deaths) to reach it's end goal would it?




Because not dying would be detrimental to diversity and complexity.
DNA is the immortal ever-improving super-organism.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21786473 - 06/10/15 12:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

1) If DNA is intelligent, and guides its own mutations toward some desired end, then why are the vast majority of mutations completely miserable, unsuccessful, un-beneficial fuck-ups?

2) Why do mutations that cause cancer happen so often? Why do mutations cause still-borns and birth defects so often? If DNA design is so intelligent, then why does it seem so unintelligent?

3) If DNA doesn't require reproduction to change, and can alter itself throughout our lifetime "in real-time", then why is it that we die? Why doesn't DNA stop letting itself degrade and turn us into immortal ever-improving super-organisms? Surely if DNA can alter itself in real time, then it wouldn't take billions of years (making mistakes at every turn and causing countless unnecessary suffering and deaths) to reach it's end goal would it?




1. All the oddball shit is what makes it interesting.  if you tried to design a perfect organism, you would fail, because conditions would change.  If you tried to design a system that gave you many "dice rolls" to adapt to conditions, it might work out.

2. Something has to kill you eventually. could you imagine a world where people were immortal? let alone evrything else. it would be a horrible nightmare

3. whats the end goal? also, google epigenetics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

Quote:

In genetics, epigenetics is the study of cellular and physiological trait variations that are not caused by changes in the DNA sequence; in laymans terms, epigenetics is essentially the study of external or environmental factors that turn genes on and off and affect how cells read genes.[1] Hence, epigenetic research seeks to describe dynamic alterations in the transcriptional potential of a cell. These alterations may or may not be heritable, although the use of the term "epigenetic" to describe processes that are not heritable is controversial.[2] Unlike genetics based on changes to the DNA sequence (the genotype), the changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype of epigenetics have other causes, thus use of the prefix epi- (Greek: επί- over, outside of, around).[3][4]

The term also refers to the changes themselves: functionally relevant changes to the genome that do not involve a change in the nucleotide sequence. Examples of mechanisms that produce such changes are DNA methylation and histone modification, each of which alters how genes are expressed without altering the underlying DNA sequence. Gene expression can be controlled through the action of repressor proteins that attach to silencer regions of the DNA. These epigenetic changes may last through cell divisions for the duration of the cell's life, and may also last for multiple generations even though they do not involve changes in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism;[5] instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.[6]

One example of an epigenetic change in eukaryotic biology is the process of cellular differentiation. During morphogenesis, totipotent stem cells become the various pluripotent cell lines of the embryo, which in turn become fully differentiated cells. In other words, as a single fertilized egg cell – the zygote – continues to divide, the resulting daughter cells change into all the different cell types in an organism, including neurons, muscle cells, epithelium, endothelium of blood vessels, etc., by activating some genes while inhibiting the expression of others.[7]




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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21786485 - 06/10/15 12:42 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Quote:

now you are really showing your ignorance by claiming that some mutations are not beneficial.




Quote:

The fact that most mutations are not beneficial to an organism/species...




Is it just me, or is this a stark self-contradiction?


Not if your reading comprehension is above that of a third grader.
Let me explain how the above is not a self-contradiction: see highlights in my quote. 

Quote:

Now, how is it that a fuck-up of sequencing leads to a beneficial trait?

That has yet to be explained by modern biology.




If something makes enough mistakes, eventually it will stumble across a mistake that benefits it. When an organism reproduces, the offspring don't have identical DNA. Some will have DNA which will codes for proteins that will benefit the organism's survival. Some will have different DNA, that codes for proteins that will be a detriment to the organisms survival. If a gazelle has, say, five offspring, some will be faster runners than others, based on differences in their DNA, caused by random mutations. Some will be slower than their mother, some faster, because they all received random DNA mutations, some of which improve their likelihood of survival and some of which detract from their likelihood of survival.
The reason evolution by natural selection has been central to biology for so long is that it is extremely simple to understand, yet powerful enough to explain so much depth and complexity within biology. I continue to fail to see your reasons for rejecting it.



I do not reject natural selection, I reject random beneficial mutation.
If you understood the depth of sequencing that goes into a single gene, you would understand when I say, you cannot randomly hit keys on your keyboard and write a novel and that the same logic applies with respects towards the sequencing of a beneficial mutation.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786527 - 06/10/15 12:53 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

According to Darwinism, these fuck-ups occasionally produce novel beneficial sequences and subsequent traits and these novel traits are selected by the environment according to fitness.

I think that is pretty much nonsense.




But it's so incredibly easy to see how thousands of random mutations can cause at least one single beneficial mutation. You've received more than one example so far.

When un-beneficial, you claim that a mutation is: "..a non-repaired fuck-up of letter sequencing in DNA"
But when beneficial, you claim that a mutation is: "DNA behaving intelligently."

This is like a five year old kid playing Street Fighter Two for the first time, versing his more experienced older brother: He picks up the controller, and chaotically button mashes with no plan or pattern. When he loses, he says he fucked up. But on that extremely rare occasion that his exact pattern of random, chaotic button mashing was precisely what was required to beat his brother, in that particular 1 in 1000 situation, and his brother looks at him with utter stupefaction, he says "I took information from my environment and intelligently altered my approach to best counter your style of fighting."

It reminds me of defenders of classical Christian intelligent design, and all of Christianity for that matter. When something good happens e.g. a bullet narrowly missed any vital organs of a brave Christian soldier in a battle: "God did it." But when something awful happens e.g. a young kid gets leukemia and undergoes three horrible years of suffering and then dies: "Evil in the world is caused by sin" or "God works in mysterious ways" or there is no mention of God at all, sometimes bad things just happen.

Quote:

Because not dying would be detrimental to diversity and complexity.
DNA is the immortal ever-improving super-organism.




It wouldn't be detrimental to complexity, only diversity; in fact, I would say that the addition of immortality to an organism is an improvement of complexity. And why is diversity important to your theory? Diversity is only important when mutations are random and blind, diversity occurs through different, random mutations.

If "DNA is the immortal ever-improving super-organism," then it doesn't matter whether we die or not, or whether there is complexity or diversity. Why doesn't DNA just change into whatever it wants to in every organism on the planet, right now? Why wait? Surely with 3.5 billion years under it's belt it could have done a better job than it has so far right?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21786539 - 06/10/15 12:58 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

1. All the oddball shit is what makes it interesting.  if you tried to design a perfect organism, you would fail, because conditions would change.  If you tried to design a system that gave you many "dice rolls" to adapt to conditions, it might work out.

2. Something has to kill you eventually. could you imagine a world where people were immortal? let alone evrything else. it would be a horrible nightmare

3. whats the end goal? also, google epigenetics




1.But dice rolls are random..?..

2. Why would it be a horrible nightmare? Why does something have to kill us eventually? Un-explained assumptions.

3. I don't know.. hTx is the one claiming that DNA is intelligent, he should be able to provide some end goal? If DNA is not blind then it must be working toward something. What is it working toward hTx?


Also, I already know about epigenetics.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21786550 - 06/10/15 01:02 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Let me explain how the above is not a self-contradiction: see highlights in my quote.




Which quote? I am fairly new to these forums and can't find things that easily? What is highlighted?

Quote:

If you understood the depth of sequencing that goes into a single gene, you would understand when I say, you cannot randomly hit keys on your keyboard and write a novel and that the same logic applies with respects towards the sequencing of a beneficial mutation.




Yes you can. With enough monkeys at enough type writers, one of them WILL eventually produce Shakespeare's entire works.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21788406 - 06/10/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

It's quite clear that natural selection is taking place.  What has not been resolved is whether genetic change is always purely random or not.  There is increasing evidence in biological circles that there is more to the story than we have thought.  Changes leading to selection are complex, and not well understood.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-surprising-origins-of-evolutionary-complexity/

(Scientists are exploring how organisms can evolve elaborate structures without Darwinian selection)


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21788728 - 06/10/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Quote:

1. All the oddball shit is what makes it interesting.  if you tried to design a perfect organism, you would fail, because conditions would change.  If you tried to design a system that gave you many "dice rolls" to adapt to conditions, it might work out.

2. Something has to kill you eventually. could you imagine a world where people were immortal? let alone evrything else. it would be a horrible nightmare

3. whats the end goal? also, google epigenetics




1.But dice rolls are random..?..

2. Why would it be a horrible nightmare? Why does something have to kill us eventually? Un-explained assumptions.

3. I don't know.. hTx is the one claiming that DNA is intelligent, he should be able to provide some end goal? If DNA is not blind then it must be working toward something. What is it working toward hTx?


Also, I already know about epigenetics.




1. right. a system that exploits the versatility of randomness

2. for something to be considered alive, it has to be capable of reproduction.  this is why viruses are not considered alive.  If living things were reproducing, and yet never dying, mineral mass and water and atmosperic gasses would be gradually converted to biomass.  There would eventually be no land, water, or atmosphere left, and the earth would die out. sounds like a nightmare to me.

3. how's this for a proposal: An intelligence designed life not to produce the "most perfect organism" but rather, to produce wide degrees of variation, for entertainment.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21789763 - 06/10/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

1. right. a system that exploits the versatility of randomness




This is not what hTx is arguing, hTx seems to suggest that mutations are not random. Do you disagree?

Quote:

2. for something to be considered alive, it has to be capable of reproduction.  this is why viruses are not considered alive.  If living things were reproducing, and yet never dying, mineral mass and water and atmosperic gasses would be gradually converted to biomass.  There would eventually be no land, water, or atmosphere left, and the earth would die out. sounds like a nightmare to me.




First off, viruses kind of do reproduce, and there is no precise definition for life, just a list of things that some scientists think a thing has to have for it to be 'alive.' And why do immortal things need to reproduce? Why couldn't we just live forever (occasionally dying from accidents) and reproduce very slowly to maintain the population at a particular number? Just because we have the capability to reproduce doesn't mean we have to. We also have the capability to hunt and kill our own food, but that doesn't mean we have to. In fact it is plausible that in the near future that all food eaten will be grown in a lab.

Quote:

3. how's this for a proposal: An intelligence designed life not to produce the "most perfect organism" but rather, to produce wide degrees of variation, for entertainment.




To be entertained, a thing must be conscious. Are you arguing that DNA is conscious? This is yet another claim on top of all of the claims made already, which also needs evidence and reason.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21789835 - 06/10/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

for the record, i've not seen evidence of DNA being intelligent. you are correct in stating that that is only OP's proposition.

also, viruses do not reproduce. they rely on a host organism to reproduce for them. they do it a couple different ways, one of which is highly susceptable to mutation, and the other is much less so.

finally, i'm not proposing that DNA is entertained, but rather that it is the entertainment for "something else"


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21790253 - 06/10/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Where does cross-breeding figure in?



Zebrant


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21790447 - 06/10/15 09:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

also, viruses do not reproduce. they rely on a host organism to reproduce for them. they do it a couple different ways, one of which is highly susceptable to mutation, and the other is much less so.




Yeah I wasn't arguing that they were alive, I was just pointing out that "reproduction" and "life" are man-made concepts, that aren't as clear-cut as many people think.

Quote:

finally, i'm not proposing that DNA is entertained, but rather that it is the entertainment for "something else"




I am definitely open to these sorts of possibilities. But I currently only entertain these concepts as exactly that: "possibilities." Do you think there is actually some sort of consciousness that is controlling biological evolution for it's own entertainment? Or are you unsure and like me, just entertain the possibility of such a notion.


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21790861 - 06/10/15 10:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

This discussion and any discussion in the world makes no sense
We are just uttering our subconscious minds, making it into thoughts, to prove our point
But our point wasn't our own, it was decided by our subconscious

Cognitive_Shift
hTx :-)

so you are trying to prove your subconscious influence on your brains
something is speaking through you, you are not actually thinking on your own

or are you?

how do you know your thoughts right now are not projections ?

we could be projecting all our lives

so some see intelligent design
some see god
some see evolution

but all those 3 could be projections of what people want to see, instead of what they analyze themselves to
science is only as applied as you make it, it has lots of boundary conditions, science isn't necessarily true
religion isn't necessarily true either...


did you see evolution all your life?
did you see god all your life?


does it make it right that your brain thinks it now because your highschool taught you it was right?

evolution looks right, might not be right, unprogram that bit
and unprogram the god created all bit too


when we perceive reality through a lens of our own we are not really seeing things as it is, but as we think it is
so you can take any theory and it will be equally right within its framework

yes you could say science knows nothing..


it is impossible to know if we project all our lives...
we only see what we want to see usually...
and we will fight for it, to make others see our point as we do
if we can make others believe like we do, it gives us comfort that we are right


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21791283 - 06/11/15 01:04 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

What about drugs and psychedelics which seem almost designed for human consciousness?

*be back in a bit to elaborate am really busy*


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21791443 - 06/11/15 01:53 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

we only see what we want to see, we only see ourselves in others/the world


so if you trip and see god, you believed in god deep within

and others that trip and don't see god, didn't believe


your subsconscious can change, and suddenly you can start believing, then you see god

but does it mean god is there?


I have had as religious/nice experiences with anything as I had with psychedelics

first love, drunk love, lsd love, alone in nature, first sacred place in nature, when I built my own cave as a kid, love as a kid etc.

:laugh:

I have also had the 'intelligent design' without psychedelics, try fasting for 1-2 weeks
then notice your body - I couldn't put words to it fully at that time though

your body follows your mind, a healthy mind produces a healthy body
a healthy mind means no subconscous garbage/garbage thoughts - when you fast , exercise ,meditate, you purify your mind

so a pure mind gives you a healthy body

same happens with psychedelics, if you treat them right


we could just be our minds, and purifying our mind, that makes us healthier

there is nothing psychedelics do that you cannot get to without them it seems, i.e. sense deprivation tanks, intense meditation, fasting, lucid dreaming..

it is all already in the mind

psychedelics just show us ourselves , and we think that is intelligent


unfortunately there is often a price to pay with psychedelics that there isn't with meditation - they usually distort the mind for a while after, either they give manic thoughts, or low thoughts
manic thoughts -> I love you all -> I have no self -> I am god -> I saw it all last night

it's a too elevated mood, that problem is not there with meditation / fasting

so trips are not always as good as they are said to be, there is a price to pay, and one should be willing to pay the price of a mind that needs to be defragmented afterwards


if you keep zooming in on reality , I bet at some zoom level it looks intelligent
that's that psychedelics do

but in this case, intelligent is just what we cannot comprehend rationally

belief is really personal I believe, not something that can be argued, people have tried for centuries and centuries - you will never be able to convince anyone

we all got our own beliefs, and we fight to keep them
any discussion is a projection of ones beliefs usually...


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21791488 - 06/11/15 02:09 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

my personal belief is that if you gain anything from psychedelics, then you were destined to

after I got into astrology I found out it said I would have a rebirth in 2012

that's funnily enough exactly the date where I took enough LSD to make it happen, had taken last 2 years at that time - turned my life around 180


I won't say I haven't gained anything from psychedelics , that would be a gross lie
what I have gained was in me already, I had worked for it my whole life, and I had to pay as big a price as what I gained

there's a down for every up


growing your consciousness, as these molecules are known for often, has a drawback
you see the foolishness of the world


there's belief, and there's debate, but I am not going to argue my belief that they can indeed unlock our minds/grow our consciousness - if we are ready

only peple who are ready "take the red pill" / go deep enough to be reborn


you can be reborn into apathy or into love , 2 ways of coming out

is that intelligent?
it is what you were when you came to earth, it is your fate


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21813790 - 06/16/15 08:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You seem interested so do some real research into the topic of DNA intelligence.

Psychedelics, our own consciousness, synchronicity, Learys musings on the neurogenetic circuit..

There is something going on here..and it seems super-intelligent.


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