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InvisiblehTx
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Intelligent Design
    #21772247 - 06/06/15 10:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

My studies of biology and evolution have lead me to believe in a sort of intelligent design.
Not designed by "God" but by DNA.
The evidence in favor of this view has really stacked in the past few years.
The leap of logic as it pertains to evolution and DNA, however, is still lacking.

Well, what say you?

Is evolution a blind process guided by natural selection?

Or something else entirely?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21772274 - 06/06/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Is evolution a blind process guided by natural selection?




This has already been answered by mountains of biological/environmental evidence and confirmed by AI learning. But I am sure you will overturn this and find your name echoed in the halls of scientific greats.

Or not.

:whippedcreamhead:


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21772287 - 06/06/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, what about epigenetics?

What about that mountain of evidence?


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21772292 - 06/06/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You studied evolution and claim DNA is god?  Did you pass the class?


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21772358 - 06/06/15 11:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Not God, but an intelligent architect.
And yes, i was top of my class.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx] * 1
    #21772422 - 06/06/15 11:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)



Congratulations!


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InvisibleJufin
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21772615 - 06/07/15 01:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
My studies of biology and evolution have lead me to believe in a sort of intelligent design.
Not designed by "God" but by DNA.
The evidence in favor of this view has really stacked in the past few years.
The leap of logic as it pertains to evolution and DNA, however, is still lacking.

Well, what say you?

Is evolution a blind process guided by natural selection?

Or something else entirely?



Are you saying that DNA causes mutations to occur which become successful?  Therefore not being mutations but purposeful evolutions?

It's a blind process, but natural selection itself is guided by the instinct to survive.  The effective traits reproduce and the ineffective are bred out.  It's also an instinct to continue the path of evolution.  That's why war happens; one group of humans wants more power, which means bringing down another group of humans, which keeps the successful group breeding on and therefore those traits becoming effective.  Humans are the dominant life form on the planet right now.  When I don't conform to the evolutionary path, I get severely depressed.  Evolution has forced itself upon me.  I either evolve or I die.  Evolution is constant.

What about mutations that have no perceivable benefit?  For example, I have a foot fetish.  I can't figure out how it benefits evolution.  I'm very happy with it, because it's another source of sexual energy.  But what if it's just a random mutation that occurred and somehow survived down the line, as a byproduct of other successful mutations?


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Jufin] * 1
    #21772627 - 06/07/15 01:09 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

If you ask about my personal faith  then I don't believe in coincidences

I don't see any coincidences with man in this world, and not with our bodies either

We attact who we are
Spirit builds the body

that's my view
so you could say "intelligent design of the one hive mind"

but while in this body there are some rules, and other rules you can break
you can be free in your thoughts, but you have to adhere to the physical reality somewhat - i.e. you can get a blood clot


but I don't think it happens unless it's supposed to happen, nothing does
the world is built exactly as it should be, no atom is in the wrong place


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #21772652 - 06/07/15 01:25 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
My studies of biology and evolution have lead me to believe in a sort of intelligent design.
Not designed by "God" but by DNA.
The evidence in favor of this view has really stacked in the past few years.
The leap of logic as it pertains to evolution and DNA, however, is still lacking.

Well, what say you?

Is evolution a blind process guided by natural selection?

Or something else entirely?





Either way, everything that exists(including living things)conforms to the laws of physics.  so, IMO the question of intelligent design pertains more to physics than biology.  In other words, even if otherwise undirected, evolution is directed by the limitations of the physical laws.

as to the question of DNA possibly being self aware and self determined, i think its a good one, and i would like see some research on the topic


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21772658 - 06/07/15 01:29 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Your body starts from one cell

So your dna must be intelligent, it assembles your whole body

Every cell in your body has the whole program, it knows how your eyes look, how you should speak (your brain) etc.

Pretty mindboogling to think about, that you got your mind in every cell


But there are of course more issues to this, what is 'intelligence'
1 is it self aware (the dna)
2 how do we measure self aware
3 is it just a program/computer doing a program

even if it is just a machine it is amazing


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782026 - 06/09/15 07:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:

Not designed by "God" but by DNA.
The evidence in favor of this view has really stacked in the past few years.




Like what? What evidence is there to suggest that DNA designs in a non-random manner?

If this was the case then wouldn't we be more efficient.. at everything.. and wouldn't evolution be occuring much faster than it already is.. If DNA is designing life intelligently through evolution, then why does it screw up so often?... : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4238NN8HMgQ

Quote:

lessismore said:

Spirit builds the body




Why is it that you believe this?

Quote:

lessismore said:

Pretty mindboogling to think about, that you got your mind in every cell




I am assuming that by 'mind' you mean consciousness or something to do with consciousness. In which case, you do not have your mind in every cell. You have a bunch of amino acids arranged and categorized neatly into some proteins. Each cell contains lots of information, but I don't see how you can call this a 'mind.'

Quote:

lessismore said:

But there are of course more issues to this, what is 'intelligence'
1 is it self aware (the dna)
2 how do we measure self aware
3 is it just a program/computer doing a program

even if it is just a machine it is amazing




1. No, this would mean it is conscious, and we have every reason to believe that consciousness is the product of information processing at the level of the brain.

2. See above (consciousness). We are aware of ourselves, rocks are not, the key difference that provides this awareness is consciousness.

3. I don't understand the question


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21782091 - 06/09/15 08:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:


1. No, this would mean it is conscious, and we have every reason to believe that consciousness is the product of information processing at the level of the brain.

2. See above (consciousness). We are aware of ourselves, rocks are not, the key difference that provides this awareness is consciousness.








What makes you say rocks are not self aware?;-)

yes stupid question, but I love making people nihilists


and 1. your reason to believe so is that you only looked at one side of things
no science project ever as far as I know looked into if DNA could be conscious (self aware)


but certain things makes it look self aware, i.e. that it can repair itself all the time
and cells look self aware too, they detect mutations and fix them


how is that not conscious?
how do you define conscious / self aware?
how can you be sure?

so many questions..
are humans conscious? - or are we just a computer program doing what we're ment to do


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782108 - 06/09/15 08:23 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

obviously not all humans are aware of their program, so is it only some humans that are conscious?

how conscious should one be to be conscious?

is it ok to be a program, to be intelligent( i.e. a cell , or a computer program) ?

what is the level of acceptable self awareness to you to make something intelligent?


(any cell can communicate with any other cell in the body via transporter molecules, is that not intelligence / self awareness  - or is it just a program?)


Edited by lessismore (06/09/15 08:37 AM)


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Offlinesecondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782227 - 06/09/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What makes you say rocks are not self aware?;-)

yes stupid question, but I love making people nihilists




It's theoretically possible, but there is no reason to believe that they are conscious.

Quote:

and 1. your reason to believe so is that you only looked at one side of things
no science project ever as far as I know looked into if DNA could be conscious (self aware)




What reason do we have that suggests it might be conscious? DNA is not made of neurons and electromagnetic energy, which, so far, is the only physical structure we know of that can produce consciousness.

Quote:

but certain things makes it look self aware, i.e. that it can repair itself all the time
and cells look self aware too, they detect mutations and fix them




Electrons act differently when they are observed, than when they are no observed, this does not mean they are conscious. Cells create mutations which lead to cancer. Why not repair themselves every time? I don't know enough cell biology to really get into the details here.

Quote:

how is that not conscious?
how do you define conscious / self aware?
how can you be sure?
so many questions..
are humans conscious? - or are we just a computer program doing what we're ment to do

obviously not all humans are aware of their program, so is it only some humans that are conscious?




Consciousness is the existence of subjectivity. What is it like to be an elephant? If you can answer this question with anything at all, then elephants are conscious. What it is like to be you at this very moment? Is it like something to be you? Is it like something to see the colors you are seeing, and hear the sounds you are hearing? Then you are conscious. What is it like to be a rock? It is likely not like anything to be a rock, and hence, rocks are not conscious.
Of course humans are conscious, it is even possible that we are "computer program doing what we're ment to do" and also conscious. The very fact that it is like something to be you at this very moment, means that you are conscious. The existence of your consciousness may be the only thing that you can ever be certain of.

Quote:

how conscious should one be to be conscious?




Consciousness is a spectrum, from less comprehensive states of awareness to more comprehensive states of awareness. If there is any awareness at all, then there is consciousness. It is possible that every animal with neurons, no matter how few, is conscious.

Quote:

is it ok to be a program, to be intelligent( i.e. a cell , or a computer program) ?




I don't understand the question. Is it 'ok'? What does that mean?

Quote:

what is the level of acceptable self awareness to you to make something intelligent?




Intelligence is a far more complex subject. It is hard to measure awareness and it is hard to measure intelligence. Are the works of Shakespeare a greater or lesser display of intelligence than the scientific theories put forward by Newton? It is extremely difficult, and maybe even impossible, even in principle, to answer such questions.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21782276 - 06/09/15 09:07 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

One quick objection to your writing...

ALL is made of electromagnetic energy, everything in this universe

every atom in the universe is

so every atom in the universe is as electromagnetic as your brain.... - just in a different way, it might not have synapses, instead it has an electromagnetic potential to store its energy data (electron configurations)

atoms are ruled by electromagnetism, so DNA is too.

It seems DNA has data storage like a computer, and a program like a computer, and it can even fix random errors too like an advanced computer + it is electromagnetic (its atoms are and its folding etc- thats why it spirals as a double helix most likely).

the question whether it is self aware remains unsolved ;-)


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782321 - 06/09/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You may be right about the prevalence of electromagnetic energy, I really don't know enough about it to say.

And the question will always remain unsolved, the only consciousness that you will ever know exists is your own:

" The only proof that it is like something to be you at this moment is the fact (obvious only to you) that it is like something to be you."

- Sam Harris


But if we take a leap forward from solipsism, then it seems quite reasonable that neurons are a good starting point for consciousness.


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: secondorder]
    #21782359 - 06/09/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
You may be right about the prevalence of electromagnetic energy, I really don't know enough about it to say.

And the question will always remain unsolved, the only consciousness that you will ever know exists is your own:

" The only proof that it is like something to be you at this moment is the fact (obvious only to you) that it is like something to be you."

- Sam Harris


But if we take a leap forward from solipsism, then it seems quite reasonable that neurons are a good starting point for consciousness.





The more I think about it, the less I am sure if I am conscious...

Maybe I'm just an automatic program running inside a thought matrix , doing what I'm supposed to do, like everyone else

All running our hidden program ( the program which we are not fully aware of)

But some are aware of the program, yet they are rarely aware of the full program.

Even if they are aware of that program, it seems they do what the program tells them to do

You can only run against your program for so long, then you become miserable it seems

Is free will real?

How can I be sure that what I do , wasn't part of my program?

To be sure I have free will, I need access to the full sourcecode... But that isn't possible it seems... you can only see a subset of it

How can we be truly free without owning our own minds 100%?


Edited by lessismore (06/09/15 09:40 AM)


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782417 - 06/09/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

our subconscious is hidden from us and it controls every aspect of our lives!  - it directs every thought we have... - and most people are not aware, even those that are aware are not aware to the full extent of it, because you cannot know your subconscious fully it seems, there is always stuff hidden - so are you really thinking your own thoughts?


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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782439 - 06/09/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

There was a thread on free will not too long ago, you should check it out.

I think that free will's lack of existence is quite obvious. I don't even think that free will is even theoretically possible. But that has nothing to do with being consciousness. The very existence of subjectivity is consciousness. We do not possess any freedom of will and yet we are conscious. Awareness means consciousness.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: lessismore]
    #21782450 - 06/09/15 09:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The more I think about it, the less I am sure if I am conscious...





No argument here.

:noddingbaby:


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