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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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DividedQuantum said:
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clam_dude said: But as to weather or not I believe in god, the answer is no. And so I'm an atheist and I don't see the point in using euphemisms.
So you're not part of the problem. 
Here's the definition of agnostic from the top of the page "a person who does not have a definite belief about whether God exists or not."
Now, if this person was asked on a questionnaire "do you believe in god, yes or no?" what would be the appropriate answer?
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Atheist pAradox [Re: deff]
#21807112 - 06/14/15 04:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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deff said: well just to clarify, the dictionary definition that DQ gave of atheist was someone who believes there is no god, not someone who knows there is no god, which is a big difference. likewise, believing there is a god without knowing it for sure would make one a theist.
Well this is true, and so this definition is more accurate than those that claim atheists "know" there is no god. However, I still have a problem with the way it's worded. It's addressing a belief in the lack of a god, as opposed to lack of belief in god.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: Atheist pAradox [Re: clam_dude] 1
#21807113 - 06/14/15 04:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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A true agnostic would say, "I don't know." Neither "yes" nor "no." There is a difference between lack of belief, and disbelief.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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DividedQuantum said: A true agnostic would say, "I don't know." Neither "yes" nor "no." There is a difference between lack of belief, and disbelief.
Wow you really aren't getting what I'm saying.
It's a yes or no question. The answer would be no. And to say no to this question is not the same thing as saying that one believes there is no god.
If you "don't know," then you don't have a particular belief in a god. The answer is no. Saying no to this question is not incompatible with saying you "don't know"
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: Atheist pAradox [Re: clam_dude] 2
#21807184 - 06/14/15 04:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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oh, really?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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clam_dude
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I'll sum it up like this - all of this debating over the semantics of "athiest" or "agnostic" seems about as absurd to me as debating over different labels for those who don't believe in the tooth fairy. You either believe in it or you don't. And people who say they don't believe in the tooth fairy don't generally get inundated with responses of "well how do you know there's no tooth fairy. You would have to know everything about the universe to claim such a thing. You really should say you're agnostic."
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (06/14/15 05:15 PM)
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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DividedQuantum said: oh, really?

Yes, really. And answering no to this question does not suggest that you "believe there is no god." It's perfectly compatible with agnosticism. I don't see what the problem is.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Let me put it this way. If the question was reversed to be "do you believe that there is no god," the answer would also be no.
p.s. Apologies for bombing this thread, I will take a breather now.
I was going to make another post, but I'll just add to this one since I have made so many. I just want to address this post:
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A true agnostic would say, "I don't know." Neither "yes" nor "no." ...
The position of "I don't know" is a perfectly reasonable answer to the question of "does god exist?" In fact, it's my answer as well. But this is not the question. The question is "do you believe that god exists?"
I know I may come across as trying to pigeonhole your beliefs. But I'm not asking for a yes or no answer to the question of god's existence. Of course, this is an unanswerable question. But if asked whether or not one has a belief in god, one can say no to that without saying no to the question of god's existence. An atheist simply says no to the question "do you believe in god?," not to the question of "is there a god?" And I believe this is where most of the confusion about this occurs.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
Edited by clam_dude (06/14/15 07:04 PM)
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hTx
(:



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Arguing over definitions and terms again, eh dude?
Can't someone say "i dont know anything but i have many strong suspicions" without getting grouped into being an atheist?
You still butthurt over agnosticism being the only rational position instead of atheism.
Agnostics dont table public events and schools, or protest churches..
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss



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Re: Atheist pAradox [Re: hTx]
#21813912 - 06/16/15 09:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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DividedQuantum said:
Then why not call yourself an agnostic? That's how they've always been defined...
Did you just completely ignore the definition provided by our almighty father Google? Oh hail Google for thou knowest and I knowest not! Praise be to the one who has access to everything that is, has and will be known.
HA but in all seriousness, it's as if you searched for a specific definition to suit your own purposes, why not just take the most commonly understood definition of a word? Popularity determines meaning. Atheist... A- Theist... not a theist. How is this so complicated? Asymmetrical means not symmetrical, atypical means not typical etc. It's fairly easy to follow.
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Sammysong said: ...
I will now repeat your exact response, replacing 'God' with 'Ra' an ancient Egyptian Eagle-God of immense power, in an attempt to show you just how ridiculous your post was:
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Dismissal of all evidence is not an argument against Ra. It is mere denial of reality that there are indeed infinite evidences for the existence of a first cause. Claiming there’s no evidence for Ra is tantamount to claiming to have proved that all proposed evidences, ever, are wrong. This has never been done by anyone, ever.
The atheist, though he will always deny it, because of personal wishes that there be no Ra, is always left with nothing to found his own beliefs on. What do we see instead? Nothing but denial and lame attempts at shirking his share of the burden of proof. Atheists always shirk this by mere caviling and, as always, denial that they even have any such burden. But they do have such a burden anyway – shirked or not, admitted or not.
Atheists tend to assume that if one has no evidence for Ra’s existence, then one ought to believe that Ra does not exist. False. What the atheist fails to see is that atheism is just as much a knowledge claim “There is no Ra” as theism’s “There is a Ra”.
The atheist cannot say, “Well I don’t claim there is no Ra, only that I don’t believe there is”. But such would lead to agnosticism, not real atheism. If one does not know there is no Ra, one has no grounds to believe there is no Ra, no ultimate first cause. Back to burden of proof! Is there evidence that no Ra exists? No. None whatsoever.
The atheist must give plausible reasons for rejecting Ra’s existence.
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Re: Atheist pAradox [Re: hTx]
#21816946 - 06/16/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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hTx said: Arguing over definitions and terms again, eh dude?
Can't someone say "i dont know anything but i have many strong suspicions" without getting grouped into being an atheist?
You still butthurt over agnosticism being the only rational position instead of atheism.
Agnostics dont table public events and schools, or protest churches..
Well fair enough - I think that many if not most people who call themselves agnostic have similar beliefs about god as those who call themselves atheist, beside the labels. But this isn't always the case as many "agnostics" believe there to be a plausible chance of a god existing. Perhaps you fit into this category.
So pardon me for calling you an atheist. But it still seems as though you want to push the narrative that atheists claim some sort of certainty about the lack of a deity, or lack of an afterlife (which has nothing to do with atheism anyway).
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




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Quote:
clam_dude said: atheists claim some sort of certainty about the lack of a deity, or lack of an afterlife
You just defined Atheism. Undecided or what you call lack of certainty is called Agnostic. If you don't agree with this, you don't understand what Atheism means.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land

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Quote:
Cognitive_Shift said:
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clam_dude said: atheists claim some sort of certainty about the lack of a deity, or lack of an afterlife
You just defined Atheism. Undecided or what you call lack of certainty is called Agnostic. If you don't agree with this, you don't understand what Atheism means.
What an obvious example of quote mining.
-------------------- "I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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