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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates?
#21762507 - 06/04/15 05:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I saw this in frank horrigans cloning tek, I'd never seen it mentioned anywhere else and was unable to find anything related with the search function.
"Some fruits will give you an isolate right off the bat, but a lot of mushrooms are actually composites of multiple genetics. However, I have seen TCs say that the original clone sectors perform better together than as an isolate of each. So it's up to you if you decide to isolate the clone further." -Frank Horrigan
I think its a neat idea to try out, I remember reading somewhere that certain species have better inter-strain cooperation. I mean, if your best fruit was a conglomerate of genetics, that was likely how it achieved such success, no? Maybe some genetics do better solo and others do better in groups 
(I am aware that the proper term for strain is variety or sub-variety. this is easier.)
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mushpunx
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#21762590 - 06/04/15 06:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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You wont be able to get an isolate from a clone, you can isolate out single sectors from the clone and stabalize it but it will still be a clone as far as I understand. Some clones will have a lot more sectors than others and it is possible to take a clone that starts out as a single sector off the bat
Recently I isolated each of the sectors from a few different clones and didnt really notice much difference between them. It was a lot of work and Ive come to the conclusion that if I have a clone I like and I want to do further work on it I might as well just isolate the best looking sector, fruit it out test it and save that.
A proper isolate would be from a plate started from spore, and from this you will definitly want to take each sector and test those out.
But yea, Ive just been finding clones I like, testing them out, then maybe isolate it down to a single sector. Then I slant it
But... I have a limited understanding of this stuff still
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PinPornProducer
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: mushpunx]
#21762620 - 06/04/15 06:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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There are still a shit load of genetics in a clone, I don't see why you couldn't get down to an isolate from one
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: mushpunx]
#21762629 - 06/04/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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You pretty much got it. In a nut shell the strongest genetics will win and take over a bunch when competing in MS. If you get enough amazing strains you'll see a wall to wall canopy. Cloning the strongest would give you strong genetics that were all compatible with that strong, immense fruiting body. Although it's multiple strains, they all still made it up and can be utilized to make more. Once cloned you're guaranteed genetics compatible to do the same thing since they came from the same fruit body, which can only be done by a certain set of genetics. Meaning all strains should perform around the same. Hope this makes sense. You can isolate from there, but it really makes no difference at that point.
Edited by Mad Season (06/04/15 06:26 PM)
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PinPornProducer
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: Mad Season]
#21762684 - 06/04/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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You would think you would want to isolate from a clone, no? Because you already chose the best genetics from the fruit you cloned, then you would want to take the fastest growing, healthiest myc from that clone and transfer until you get down to an isolate.
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Mad Season
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: PinPornProducer]
#21762702 - 06/04/15 06:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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For faster colonization perhaps. It's just the people who did all different types of isolates found it'll fruit the same.
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mushpunx
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: PinPornProducer]
#21763205 - 06/04/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PinPornProducer said: You would think you would want to isolate from a clone, no? Because you already chose the best genetics from the fruit you cloned, then you would want to take the fastest growing, healthiest myc from that clone and transfer until you get down to an isolate.
You wont get an isolate from a clone though from what I understand.
I mean you can isolate out the sectors from a clone but they will still be a clone. To get an isolate you would have to start from spore not tissue
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: mushpunx]
#21763226 - 06/04/15 08:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've heard anecdotal evidence that a clone if you isolate and fruit those isolates they may not perform as well as the clone with all of it's strains together from more than just frank.
if you take spores and find 100 isolates maybe a handful will be worth keeping. if you isolate from a clone you have a little bit better chance. some clones may have vigor from the anasamatosis of numerous strains.
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Mad Season
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: mushpunx]
#21763227 - 06/04/15 08:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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You should be able to get an isolate. From what I understand it messes the dna up when it divides and expands, but that wouldn't make more strains. It's just senescence.
Eventually it expands until it has messed itself up enough to not be able to expand anymore.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: bodhisatta]
#21763380 - 06/04/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: I've heard anecdotal evidence that a clone if you isolate and fruit those isolates they may not perform as well as the clone with all of it's strains together from more than just frank.
if you take spores and find 100 isolates maybe a handful will be worth keeping. if you isolate from a clone you have a little bit better chance. some clones may have vigor from the anasamatosis of numerous strains.
very cool. new experimenting to be done
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: Mad Season]
#21763388 - 06/04/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: You should be able to get an isolate. From what I understand it messes the dna up when it divides and expands, but that wouldn't make more strains. It's just senescence.
Eventually it expands until it has messed itself up enough to not be able to expand anymore.
mushpunk doesn't seem to quite know what he's talking about, just let him fade away. (unless I misinterpreted his post of course)
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mushpunx
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: Mad Season]
#21763437 - 06/04/15 09:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Im kinda confused. I didnt think you could get to the same end result by isolating from a clone as you would isolating from a culture from spores But I wouldnt go as far as saying I dont know what Im talking about, I isolate from clone or from spores for all my grows 
Heres an example, its a quote from Pastywhyte in a thread where I was isolating out each of the sectors from a different clone cultures untill they didnt show any more sectoring and then fruited each culture out to test them
"Yes. What you are doing will result in a stabilized clone. It will not be an isolate, tho it will produce consistent results given consistent conditions. You will need to fruit each one tho most will behave the same. Usually when I am working on a clone I worry more about stripping out the weak genetics rather than isolating the strong ones. Some people believe that all sectors will still carry some genetic information from all or most of the strains that comprised the original fruit."
-Pastywhyte
I mean maybe its just semantics or technicality or whatnot I dunno haha
I dont really care Isolate or clone as long as my end result is a clean, "monoculture" that rocks and I can slant, and pull it out when I need so that it performs as advertised
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Edited by mushpunx (06/04/15 09:54 PM)
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mushpunx
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#21763442 - 06/04/15 09:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Technically a monoculture refers to a colonized media where only one species is present. With ms this is difficult to verify due to different growth patterns that seperate strains may exhibit. Contamination could be present. So if I am using a stabilized clone I may refer to it as a monoculture because its not an isolate (it is very difficult to truly isolate from a clone, anastomisis is going to play a big part there) yet because its far easier to observe that the culture is uniform and clean on the plate, monoculture is a good fit.
An isolated strain as kizzle said is often referred to as a pure strain. I highly doubt that any clone regardless of how many times you transfer it will be a pure strain."
- Pastywhyte
Here is another quote from the same conversation supporting the inpression that I was under, that you would need to isolate from a culture started from spore if you want an isolate.
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Edited by mushpunx (06/04/15 09:33 PM)
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: mushpunx]
#21763566 - 06/04/15 09:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushpunx said: "Technically a monoculture refers to a colonized media where only one species is present. With ms this is difficult to verify due to different growth patterns that seperate strains may exhibit. Contamination could be present. So if I am using a stabilized clone I may refer to it as a monoculture because its not an isolate (it is very difficult to truly isolate from a clone, anastomisis is going to play a big part there) yet because its far easier to observe that the culture is uniform and clean on the plate, monoculture is a good fit.
An isolated strain as kizzle said is often referred to as a pure strain. I highly doubt that any clone regardless of how many times you transfer it will be a pure strain."
hopefully a TC can clarify
- Pastywhyte
Here is another quote from the same conversation supporting the inpression that I was under, that you would need to isolate from a culture started from spore if you want an isolate.
weirrrd. I'd never heard that. It doesn't make sense to me that you couldn't make an isolate from a clone though. You'd think it would be harder to isolate from spores.
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mushpunx
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: Psilosopherr]
#21763677 - 06/04/15 10:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yea man I mean like I said it might just be semantics. The terms "isolate" and "monoculture" seem to get used a bit loosely and it gets confusing, and most of the time they are used interchangably
Its not exactly harder to isolate from spores, it just takes a lot more transfers untill you see sectoring and like Bod said, fewer winners. But the motions are essentially the same.
Here is a clone that I isolated down to a single sector , the left tub in my sig 
Is it an isolated strain? I dont think so, because its from a clone, so I like Pasty's term "stabalized clone" better than "isolate"
Im imterested to hear others thoughts on this becausr its freaking confusing
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Cloning from fruits: do conglomerates of multiple "strains" perform better than isolates? [Re: mushpunx]
#21768234 - 06/05/15 11:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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An isolate is just the result of two spores mating, a fruit body from MS can be a mosaic from many parents (but at least it's succeeded in fruiting), if you propagate tissue from a fruit body you make a clone (which could be a mosaic still, see), but if you go through isolation on agar until you have a culture that doesn't sector at all then you're back to the original two spores mating - UNLESS it's a mosaic of multiple parents but they all just happen to act exactly the same - a might-as-well-be isolate then.
I can see where the confusion comes in.
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