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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
More about Bush supports boiling people to death
    #2176127 - 12/14/03 05:12 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

1. Ok, so Saddam was an evil dictator who tortured and killed his own people.......you'll get no argument from me there! Even though U.S. foreign policy over the years has called Saddam both friend and foe when it was advantages for us to do so, all the while Saddam continued to gas and kill his own people, Saddam was a very evil man who deserves no less than death. Enough said.

2. We've got Bush spouting all sorts of lovely epithets about how we will not cooperate with terrorists, how those who oppress their own people are evil and will not be tolerated such as in this quip from a meeting Bush had with the prime minister of Japan:


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No threat, no threat will prevent freedom-loving people from defending freedom. And make no mistake about it: This is good versus evil. These are evildoers. They have no justification for their actions. There's no religious justification, there's no political justification. The only motivation is evil.
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http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/s...esident_057.htm

Now, that sounds good. I'll go along with that. I see no reason why evil dictators shouldn't be booted out of the seat of power, letting the door of fuck right off slam shut on their asses on the way out.

But then, after all of this anti-terrorist, anti-dictator, freedom for the people fanfare, we get this:




For those not in the know, that's good 'ol Islam Karminov, the President of Uzbekistan, best known for his love of the smell of boiled human flesh in the morning:


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From "US Looks Away as New Ally Tortures Islamists" by Nick Paton Walsh, Guardian (London), 26 May 2003:

Independent human rights groups estimate that there are more than 600 politically motivated arrests a year in Uzbekistan, and 6,500 political prisoners, some tortured to death. According to a forensic report commissioned by the British embassy, in August two prisoners were even boiled to death.

The US condemned this repression for many years. But since September 11 rewrote America's strategic interests in central Asia, the government of President Islam Karimov has become Washington's new best friend in the region.
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From Amnesty International's 2003 report on Uzbekistan:

The bodies of Muzafar Avazov, a 35-year-old father of four, and Khusniddin Alimov, aged 34, were brought from Jaslyk prison in the Northern Karaklapakstan region to their families in Tashkent on 8 August. Muzafar Avazov was reportedly tortured to death; an eyewitness said the body showed signs of burns on the legs, buttocks, lower back and arms. Reportedly, there was a large wound on the back of the head, bruises on the forehead, and the hands had no fingernails. The authorities reportedly restricted viewing of Khusniddin Alimov's body.
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From "EU Statement on Torture in Uzbekistan" by the European Union, 21 Nov 2002:

The EU drew attention on 5 September to the violent deaths in Jaslyk prison of two prisoners, Mr. Muzaffar Avazov and Mr Khusniddin Alimov, allegedly as a result of torture, and recalled the obligations of Uzbekistan in accordance with the UN Convention against Torture, to which it is a party. The EU has been alarmed to receive reports that a third prisoner, Numan Zafarov, may have died in the same incident as Avazov and Alimov.
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From Amnesty International's 2000 report on Uzbekistan:

The five members of Hizb-ut-Tahrir were reportedly tortured in order to force them to "confess". The methods included near-suffocation with a plastic bag, being hung upside down, having needles stuck under finger- and toe-nails, having their hands and feet burned and having electric shocks administered via a device fitted to the head ("electric cap").
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From "Uzbekistan Torture" by Voice of America, 6 Dec 2002:

A senior U-N official visiting the Central Asian country of Uzbekistan has accused the Uzbek government of widespread torture. V-O-A's Rebecca Santana has more from Moscow.

TEXT: The top United Nations official on torture, Theo van Boven, said Friday during a trip to Uzbekistan that the government regularly uses torture against political opponents.

Mr. Van Boven is wrapping up a two-week visit to Uzbekistan during which he talked with dozens of people who said they had been tortured by the police or the secret services.

During a press conference Friday, Mr. Van Boven said torture is "not just incidental but has a nature of being systemic in this country."
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From "Uzbekistan: Torture Death in Prison" by Human Rights Watch, 3 May 2003:

Another Uzbek prisoner was tortured to death, contradicting U.S. claims that Uzbekistan is making progress on human rights, Human Rights Watch said today.

“Another prisoner tortured to death in Uzbekistan is not progress—it is more of the same,” said Elizabeth Andersen, executive director of the Europe and Central Asia Division of Human Rights Watch. “This is the tenth torture-related death in custody we’ve documented in the past year and a half. The State Department’s claims of human rights progress simply do not reflect reality.”

Family members who helped to wash Gafarov’s body told Human Rights Watch that they observed a large wound to his head that appeared to have been caused by a sharp object. There was also bruising to the back of his head. Gafarov’s rib cage, chest and throat were also bruised, and his hands were scratched.
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From "New Death from Torture in Uzbekistan" by Human Rights Watch, 21 May 2003:

The National Security Service detained Orif Ershanov in Karshi, a city in southern Uzbekistan, on suspicion of belonging to the banned Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir (Party of Liberation). He died in custody on May 15.

Witnesses who saw the body told Human Rights Watch that it had heavy bruising to the arms, shoulders, upper chest, legs and soles of the feet. There were open wounds to one arm and his back. Several ribs were broken. Photographs obtained by Human Rights Watch confirmed these injuries. Witnesses also reported that there were indications that objects such as needles had been forced under the fingernails.
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http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/us-and-uz.htm

Wow, what a swell guy! Who wouldn't want to shake his (bloodsoaked) hand?

So, rightwing, you can pretty much guess where this is going..... What gives? It's not ok when Saddam does it, but somehow Karminov's torture of his own people is somewhat more palatable?

Or maybe it's the fact that Saddam was really only our enemy when he started messing around with our Kuwaiti oil supply and whatever convenient purpose he served to advance the PNAC agenda post 9/11.

And what of Karminov? Atrocities overlooked for want of a great strategic foothold in the region? Or maybe it has something to do with the enormous amount of natural gas Uzbekistan just happens to be sitting on?


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Uzbekistan is the eighth-largest producer of natural gas in the world, but lacks the ability to export most of it. Uzbekistan currently serves as a crucial link in the gas transport chain linking Turkmenistan's enormous gas deposits with Russia.
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http://www.worldpress.org/specials/.../uzbekistan.htm

Well, rightwing, I'd really like an answer to this obvious hypocrisy! What are we here on the left supposed to believe?


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 23 days
Re: More about Bush supports boiling people to death [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2176134 - 12/14/03 05:18 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How about Tawain??? Um, gee...we Taiwanese...we play joke....we put referendum for no missiles pointing at us all the time in your coke???

No, wait. We need not upshet the shtatus quo.

Forget about what all the people who died in vietnam were supposively fighting for (democracy, self rule, versus communism)


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There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 11 months, 20 days
Re: More about Bush supports boiling people to death [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2178946 - 12/15/03 08:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know man. Certainly it is a puzzling situation. I would guess that we can not do everything all at once and while people on the left may point at this and say " see look at your hypocracy" they would be horrified if we decided to do something about it. In the end I think forein policy is a give and take where trying to balance andsatisfy everyone is impossible. I think they have to turn an eye on some things in order to accomplish the more pressing goals. And someone will say it is because there is no money or oil in it for the US. Well don't expect France and Germany to do anything about it. They wont raise a finger for anything and the US had done things in places where there was no oil in the past.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: More about Bush supports boiling people to death [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2179034 - 12/15/03 10:12 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I would guess that we can not do everything all at once

That is incredibly weak. I condemn all murderers everywhere. How is that? Was that too hard? So the main question is: "Is Bush spineless or phoney?"


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
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Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 22,840
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Last seen: 2 months, 1 day
Re: More about Bush supports boiling people to death [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2179119 - 12/15/03 11:22 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)



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Anonymous

Re: More about Bush supports boiling people to death [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2179198 - 12/15/03 12:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

theres this game called politics.

the administration sees the world as a gameboard (rightly so) and will do what
best suits their needs in whatever part of the world.

calling out saddam on his human rights violations/alleged wmd allowed them to
put 250k american troops in the heart of the middle east, spend our money
to put mcdonalds and pizza huts all over baghdad, hopefully help our economy
and give the iraqis a democracy.  i think after that they hoped the middle east
would want more democracy, and warm up to the us.

they also needed more room to stretch their military muscle.  rumsfeld wants to
change the way our military works in a very significant way.  make it highly monile
efficient, etc.  we needed a place to test our capabilities, see what we needed to
to 'work out the kinks' so to speak, and iraq was it.

its not about right or wrong.  its about keeping things the way we want them,
shaping the world to fit our needs, securing our interests, etc.

you folks dont really think anyone in power gives a damn about us, do you?
:lol:


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InvisibleMycomancer
Psi Cubed
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 586
Re: More about Bush supports boiling people to death [Re: ]
    #2179226 - 12/15/03 12:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Never forget that it was the U.S. that led, and supported to the coup that put Saddam in power in the first place.

mycomancer


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: More about Bush supports boiling people to death [Re: Mycomancer]
    #2179232 - 12/15/03 12:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

and Noriega

and Khadafy

and...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,756
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 2 hours, 36 minutes
Re: More about Bush supports boiling people to death [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2179322 - 12/15/03 01:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Fox News didn't tell me this guy was bad.

So he's good.

Saddam is the only bad one.




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Mp3 of the month: The Loose Enz - The Black Door



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