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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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mind affects health, study finds
    #21761265 - 06/04/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

There is a somewhat New-Agey, mystical notion floating around that one's mind can affect one's body, i.e. one's health.  That "positive vibrations" and certain unscientific techniques using 'mind over matter' can actually cure illnesses.  I realize that around here, that sort of stuff is labeled as bullshit -- I believe the word is "nutter" -- but I just thought it would be interesting to present an article on this very subject, and see what sorts of conversation it might generate.


Quote:

Overturning decades of textbook teaching, researchers at the University of Virginia School of Medicine have discovered that the brain is directly connected to the immune system by vessels previously thought not to exist.

The finding could have significant implications for the study and treatment of neurological diseases ranging from autism to Alzheimer’s disease to multiple sclerosis.

“It changes entirely the way we perceive the neuro-immune interaction. We always perceived it before as something esoteric that can’t be studied. But now we can ask mechanistic questions.” said Jonathan Kipnis, PhD, professor in the UVA Department of Neuroscience and director of UVA’s Center for Brain Immunology and Glia (BIG).

“We believe that for every neurological disease that has an immune component to it, these vessels may play a major role,” Kipnis said. “Hard to imagine that these vessels would not be involved in a [neurological] disease with an immune component.”




http://www.kurzweilai.net/missing-link-found-between-brain-immune-system


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: DividedQuantum] * 4
    #21761361 - 06/04/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So the body affects the body? :whoa:

My world view has been turned on its head!


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21761526 - 06/04/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

It just seemed to me that most people around these parts would consider the notion that one's mind-state or attitude can directly affect their health to be bogus New Age crap.  But now it appears that there is a scientific validation of that notion.  That's all.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21761546 - 06/04/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It just seemed to me that most people around these parts would consider the notion that one's mind-state or attitude can directly affect their health to be bogus New Age crap.  But now it appears that there is a scientific validation of that notion.  That's all.




As long as you falsely believe your mind controls anything, you have not made progress towards peer review conceptualization.

Unless everybody agrees that feeling good makes you feel good, it's a failed effort.  All the peers have to smile at each other in a circle, in consideration of the confidentiality agreements they signed that preclude them talking about it.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21761614 - 06/04/15 01:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It just seemed to me that most people around these parts would consider the notion that one's mind-state or attitude can directly affect their health to be bogus New Age crap.  But now it appears that there is a scientific validation of that notion.  That's all.




Yes, my hand can scratch my neck and my brain can control the lymphatic system. There is nothing particularly mystical about this.

Now if someone can show a solely internal way to reliably make themselves younger, cancer-free or regrow hair, then you might have a worthy topic.


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InvisibleKhancious
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21762123 - 06/04/15 03:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

One time I slept with Rihanna in a dream, had her legs over my shoulders, refinishing her plumbing system. I finished off with some potent, explosive lubricant, then I woke up in this other dimension, and I still had lubricant all over my panties.

Tell me thats not internally manifested evidence of altering reality...

:smuglook:


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I am that, which is.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21762274 - 06/04/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
There is a somewhat New-Agey, mystical notion floating around that one's mind can affect one's body, i.e. one's health.  That "positive vibrations" and certain unscientific techniques using 'mind over matter' can actually cure illnesses.  I realize that around here, that sort of stuff is labeled as bullshit -- I believe the word is "nutter" -- but I just thought it would be interesting to present an article on this very subject, and see what sorts of conversation it might generate.


Quote:

Overturning decades of textbook teaching, researchers at the University of Virginia School of Medicine have discovered that the brain is directly connected to the immune system by vessels previously thought not to exist.

The finding could have significant implications for the study and treatment of neurological diseases ranging from autism to Alzheimer’s disease to multiple sclerosis.

“It changes entirely the way we perceive the neuro-immune interaction. We always perceived it before as something esoteric that can’t be studied. But now we can ask mechanistic questions.” said Jonathan Kipnis, PhD, professor in the UVA Department of Neuroscience and director of UVA’s Center for Brain Immunology and Glia (BIG).

“We believe that for every neurological disease that has an immune component to it, these vessels may play a major role,” Kipnis said. “Hard to imagine that these vessels would not be involved in a [neurological] disease with an immune component.”




http://www.kurzweilai.net/missing-link-found-between-brain-immune-system





"Whatever the thinker thinks, the prover proves."

You could call it psychosomatic, or perhaps neurosomatic would a better term.  If you constantly beam out thoughts that the Uverse loves you and is protecting you, it seems reasonable that it may be good for your brain chemistry....

Doesn't matter if it's wrong, the effects may be therapeutic.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21762610 - 06/04/15 06:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, that's the salient point I was hoping to insinuate.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21768164 - 06/05/15 11:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Mind changes brain, brain changes mind. Mind can fix brain, brain can destroy mind. I swears on me mum.


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My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: circastes]
    #21768175 - 06/05/15 11:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Mind effects health, 2 year old professor of picking his nose says.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: circastes]
    #21768259 - 06/05/15 11:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Mind changes brain, brain changes mind. Mind can fix brain, brain can destroy mind. I swears on me mum.




How many time must cover this? Mind and brain are two different descriptors, not two different objects.

The brain is the meat and the mind is what the meat does.


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21768419 - 06/06/15 12:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:

Mind changes brain, brain changes mind. Mind can fix brain, brain can destroy mind. I swears on me mum.




How could the mind possibly affect the brain? Minds are products of brains. Something about matter, when organised in a particular way (perhaps having something to do with information processing), produces a mind.

Changes in the brain obviously cause changes in the mind, which can be demonstrated easily here there and everywhere. Eating mushrooms is an example of brain changing mind: Mushrooms go into stomach, psilocybin absorbed to bloodstream, psilocybin turns into psilocin, psilocin goes into serotonin receptors, causing changes in the brain, causing super deep-challenging-crazy-weird-fun-happy-time in the mind.

There is no way for the mind to affect the brain, however, because minds are not made of matter, or stuff. Rather they are the products of matter and stuff.

Changes in the brain cause changes in both the mind and body. The brain keeps the heart beating, the lungs breathing, the hormones flowing etc. But the brain also keeps the thoughts flowing, the consciousness going, the memories available, the subjectivity afloat.

The brain affects health; make the brain healthy, and the body will become healthier with it, and so will the mind. However, there is no way of affecting the mind, without doing so via the brain.

Quote:

mind affects health, study finds




In order to come to a conclusion such as this scientifically, then more attention would need to be paid to the variables. If you want to conclude that mind affects body then you would need to keep a test subject's brain unaltered, their body unaltered, and make changed only to their mind, then measure the results. Seeing as this cannot be achieved, however, there is an error of language in the title of the thread. It should read "brain affects health, study finds."

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

Mind and brain are two different descriptors, not two different objects.

The brain is the meat and the mind is what the meat does.




I am using 'mind' and 'consciousness' synonymously, perhaps you mean something different by 'mind'.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21768433 - 06/06/15 12:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Quote:

circastes said:

Mind changes brain, brain changes mind. Mind can fix brain, brain can destroy mind. I swears on me mum.




How could the mind possibly affect the brain?



Have you seen amputees use their prosthesis by controlling it's movement with their own thoughts?


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21768464 - 06/06/15 12:48 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

It's magic and proof of telekinesis! :elmo:


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21768760 - 06/06/15 02:49 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I made a thread awhile back pertaining to this.
Basically, i was asking if many of the recently discovered medical benefits of cannabis were evidence of the neurosomatic circuit as described by Leary and Wilson, who proposed that the herb activated the circuit and described it as mind-body oneness, in a sense.
neurosomatic mastery, meaning master of mind and body because they are one.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: hTx]
    #21768870 - 06/06/15 03:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'm just reporting facts of my experience, I don't have any argument.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21769319 - 06/06/15 08:06 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Have you seen amputees use their prosthesis by controlling it's movement with their own thoughts?




I have seen amputees use their prosthesis by controlling it's movement with their own brain, if that's what you are talking about. If, by "thought" you are referring to a physiological phenomenon of the brain, then yes, this is possible, but if by "thought" you are talking about the contents of consciousness, then it is not possible for a thought to control a prosthetic limb.


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: circastes] * 3
    #21769326 - 06/06/15 08:08 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I'm just reporting facts of my experience, I don't have any argument.




How can you 'experience' your mind changing your brain?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder] * 3
    #21769354 - 06/06/15 08:16 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Good luck getting a coherent response.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder] * 3
    #21769895 - 06/06/15 10:40 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How could the mind possibly affect the brain? Minds are products of brains. Something about matter, when organised in a particular way (perhaps having something to do with information processing), produces a mind.




I don't think it's as simple as saying that minds are a product of brains and matter alone. The brain is often compared to being like a computer. A computer does not create the electricity which brings it to life. It receives electricity which it then uses to perform certain functions. All computers receive the same energy source (for the most part anyway), but the way that energy is expressed depends upon the design and the components of the computer. If if we talk in humans terms, then the mind is the product of both our hardware (the nervous system itself) and of the energy that powers it, which I would call consciousness.

Quote:

There is no way for the mind to affect the brain, however, because minds are not made of matter, or stuff. Rather they are the products of matter and stuff.




This is not true. It has been proven in various scientific studies that meditation has various physical effects, including altering the level of neurotransmitters and hormones in the brain/body, and changing the function of the brain. By definition, to reach a meditative state, the frequency of your brainwaves have to change from beta to alpha. Meditation is a mental process, you have to focus your mind in a particular way to reach a meditative state, and yet is has all of these effects.

If you want another example of this, just sit there and think about something happy for a while. Notice how you feel? All those extra endorphin flowing. Now sit and think about something stressful, or sad. Notice how you feel now, all of that cortisol and adrenaline being released. Now tell me that the mind has no effect on the body. Incidentally, high levels cortisol and adrenaline weaken the immune system. On the other hand, studies have been done which show that serotonin boosts the immune system through several different pathways.

Quote:

The brain affects health; make the brain healthy, and the body will become healthier with it, and so will the mind. However, there is no way of affecting the mind, without doing so via the brain.




The whole thing that sets humans apart from other animals is that we have conscious awareness and control of our minds! Whilst we might be driven by the subconscious a lot of the time, we also have a great deal of control. If you think of something happy right now, it's not due to any change in your brain, it's because YOU decided to do that.

The body (including brain) and mind are intimately connected, but it is a two way process. The body affects the mind, and the mind affects the body. If one is unhealthy, then it will have an impact on the other, on a small or large scale depending on the situation. I for one think this study is extremely interesting :smile:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (06/06/15 11:07 AM)


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21770262 - 06/06/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Quote:

Have you seen amputees use their prosthesis by controlling it's movement with their own thoughts?



if by "thought" you are talking about the contents of consciousness, then it is not possible for a thought to control a prosthetic limb.



:lol:  just wow...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21770324 - 06/06/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

and of the energy that powers it, which I would call consciousness




Seeing as how I know the definition of energy and have rudimentary understanding of biology, I would call it glycogen.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #21770445 - 06/06/15 01:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

In my computer analogy, the power source is a type of energy that has no mass i.e electricity. A few hundred years ago we had no way to scientifically detect electricity. We have no way to scientifically detect consciousness at the moment, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21770618 - 06/06/15 02:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Standard topic switching. I identified the power source and then you pretend you never presented false information to the contrary and just gloss right over. I call this intellectual dishonesty.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #21770740 - 06/06/15 02:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Huh? In what way am I topic switching exactly?

I was replying to your comment about glycogen by suggesting that the ultimate energy source of human awareness (and indeed life itself) is not made of matter, but is actually some form of energy akin to electromagnetism. You suggested that the energy source was matter-based. I am presenting an alternative idea and explaining why it might exist but not yet have been detected.

Incidentally, glycogen/glucose/ATP might transport energy, but it is not the energy itself.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (06/06/15 02:48 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21770925 - 06/06/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:....




Fantastic post. Its rare that I see a poster come on and present truly clear and persuasive posts on a topic as you've done.

Quote:

PocketLady said:
In my computer analogy, the power source is a type of energy that has no mass i.e electricity.




electrons do have mass

But electricity isn't a power source, its a medium through which power may be exerted. This is similar to how a highway is not transportation, only a medium through which transportation my function. Having a highway doesn't get you transportation, nor does electricity's existance provide a power source. As orgone identifies, the brain uses organic chemicals to produce energy, though its probably more clearly fueled by glucose than glycogen. The role of glycogen in the brain isn't particularly clear and glucose appears to be the major energy source.


Quote:

A few hundred years ago we had no way to scientifically detect electricity. We have no way to scientifically detect consciousness at the moment, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.





This isn't true and is a common problem of the popular view of science: that it requires fancy gadgetry. We could observe electricity easily a thousand years ago: look at lightening. Induce static charges and watch your hair repell, et cet.

Further, we can detect consciousness at the moment, and nurses do so every day as part of routine assesments. They ask the patient where they are, who they are, and what the day is. An unconcious person doesn't do well with these questions, someone with diminished consciousness may know who they are, but not the others, et cet.


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InvisibleSun King
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: circastes] * 1
    #21771008 - 06/06/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Mind changes brain, brain changes mind. Mind can fix brain, brain can destroy mind. I swears on me mum.




Rock smashes scissors.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: johnm214] * 2
    #21771030 - 06/06/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

electrons do have mass

But electricity isn't a power source, its a means of transfering power.




I guess in scientific terms "electricity" actually refers to current. Perhaps I should have used the word "electrical energy" or electromagnetism as I did in another post. Electromagnetic energy has no mass.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
This isn't true and is a common problem of the popular view of science: that it requires fancy gadgetry. We could observe electricity easily a thousand years ago: look at lightening. Induce static charges and watch your hair repell, et cet.

Further, we can detect consciousness at the moment, and nurses do so every day as part of routine assesments. They ask the patient where they are, who they are, and what the day is. An unconcious person doesn't do well with these questions, someone with diminished consciousness may know who they are, but not the others, et cet.




Maybe a few hundred years ago electricity could be observed in a rudimentary way. It certainly wasn't understood or quantified though. The same thing can be said for consciousness at the moment. We can observe it. We don't truly understand what it is and where it comes from though.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21771992 - 06/06/15 09:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

electrons do have mass

But electricity isn't a power source, its a means of transfering power.




I guess in scientific terms "electricity" actually refers to current. Perhaps I should have used the word "electrical energy" or electromagnetism as I did in another post. Electromagnetic energy has no mass.




Electromagnetic energy isn't a tangible thing, its a concept like love. Saying it doesn't have mass is like saying love doesn't have mass: trivial and misleading.

Nevertheless, if your referring to the systems that have electric potential, they do indeed have greater mass as electrons, protons, have mass.

Quote:


Quote:

johnm214 said:
This isn't true and is a common problem of the popular view of science: that it requires fancy gadgetry. We could observe electricity easily a thousand years ago: look at lightening. Induce static charges and watch your hair repell, et cet.

Further, we can detect consciousness at the moment, and nurses do so every day as part of routine assesments. They ask the patient where they are, who they are, and what the day is. An unconcious person doesn't do well with these questions, someone with diminished consciousness may know who they are, but not the others, et cet.




Maybe a few hundred years ago electricity could be observed in a rudimentary way. It certainly wasn't understood or quantified though.




Those goalposts seem to be moving. Do we understand electricity now? What does that mean? Your shifting to pretty hazy concepts here.


Quote:

The same thing can be said for consciousness at the moment. We can observe it. We don't truly understand what it is and where it comes from though.




What is "true understanding" and how do I tell if we have it in regards to something? I think that's a term likely to allow equivocation and is essentially meaningless unless defined.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: Sun King]
    #21772005 - 06/06/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sun King said:
Quote:

circastes said:
Mind changes brain, brain changes mind. Mind can fix brain, brain can destroy mind. I swears on me mum.




Rock smashes scissors.




Paper wraps brain like a sushi roll?


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21772162 - 06/06/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think it's as simple as saying that minds are a product of brains and matter alone. The brain is often compared to being like a computer. A computer does not create the electricity which brings it to life. It receives electricity which it then uses to perform certain functions. All computers receive the same energy source (for the most part anyway), but the way that energy is expressed depends upon the design and the components of the computer. If if we talk in humans terms, then the mind is the product of both our hardware (the nervous system itself) and of the energy that powers it, which I would call consciousness.




I should have been clearer. When I use term 'stuff' and 'matter' I was including energy, light, gravity etc. I meant everything that is relevant when surveying physical systems.

Quote:

This is not true. It has been proven in various scientific studies that meditation has various physical effects, including altering the level of neurotransmitters and hormones in the brain/body, and changing the function of the brain. By definition, to reach a meditative state, the frequency of your brainwaves have to change from beta to alpha. Meditation is a mental process, you have to focus your mind in a particular way to reach a meditative state, and yet is has all of these effects.




Your 'disagreement' with me here is really just a semantic misunderstanding. As I said in a previous post, I am using the terms 'mind' and 'consciousness' synonymously. Yes meditation is a mental practice, by meditating you are affecting your mind, brain and body, I have no disagreement with you here. The misunderstanding is about the direction of causes. To say that the mind affects the brain, you would have to demonstrate a causal relationship in the direction of mind affecting brain. Thinking certain things, or performing certain practices (meditation for example) is an act of both brain and mind. The mind is a product of the brain; changing the brain necessitates changes to the mind also, but to conclude that changes to themind lead to changes in the brain you would require a way of measuring changes in the mind independent of the brain, which is both practically and theoretically impossible. How could you measure changes in the mind without doing so via the brain?

Quote:

If you want another example of this, just sit there and think about something happy for a while. Notice how you feel? All those extra endorphin flowing. Now sit and think about something stressful, or sad. Notice how you feel now, all of that cortisol and adrenaline being released. Now tell me that the mind has no effect on the body. Incidentally, high levels cortisol and adrenaline weaken the immune system. On the other hand, studies have been done which show that serotonin boosts the immune system through several different pathways.




Again, I think that our disagreement is superficial. You are mistaking the subjective nature of thoughts and feeling (consciousness, or the 'mind') for the physiological processes that give rise to them. Thinking happy thoughts and subsequently feeling happy feelings are both the subjective products of physical systems. Consciousness is not made of matter, or stuff, or any physically things.. rather, it is the product of such things. If you rearrange physically things into a certain structure, then consciousness simply arises. Remember, we are made of the same stuff as every other physical thing (stars, dirt, gasses etc.) The reason we are conscious, and dirt isn't, is simply because we have been arranged in such a way that produces consciousness, not the other way around. Consciousness can't jump into a physical system and 'bring it to life,' there is no logical defense of a ghost in the machine.

Quote:

The whole thing that sets humans apart from other animals is that we have conscious awareness and control of our minds! Whilst we might be driven by the subconscious a lot of the time, we also have a great deal of control.




This is our first real disagreement. We are just animals with a little bit more brain power than other animals, there is nothing special about our kind. We just do things a bit better than other animals. Chimpanzees, whales, dogs, elephants etc. like us, are conscious, there is no additional thing that we have that other animals do not, other than more brain power and opposable thumbs. You keep using phrases like "we have control of our minds." This is a deep misunderstanding: We are our minds! We are not separate entities that jump into our minds and play around with things, then leave to observe what happens. The 'mind,' 'consciousness,' the 'self' are all one and the same. These things are products of physical systems. Damage the physical systems, and our minds are damaged with them.

Quote:

If you think of something happy right now, it's not due to any change in your brain, it's because YOU decided to do that.




This is the pinnacle of ignorance of neuroscience and neurophysiology. What is this "YOU" that you are referring to? Clearly it is not consciousness you are talking about, clearly it is not the brain you are talking about; a soul perhaps? How can something that is not physical affect what is physical?

Quote:

I for one think this study is extremely interesting :smile:




I do too, I really love this area, what could be more interesting than studying the very thing that is doing the studying? :smile:

Quote:

Maybe a few hundred years ago electricity could be observed in a rudimentary way. It certainly wasn't understood or quantified though. The same thing can be said for consciousness at the moment. We can observe it. We don't truly understand what it is and where it comes from though.




You're right, we don't really understand what consciousness is, it really is a deep mystery. We can observe consciousness, however, we can only observe our own consciousness, there is no way of directly observing someone else's consciousness, only their brain. Also, although we do not understand exactly how consciousness comes into being, it's a fairly logical conclusion that something about the organisation of matter causes consciousness to arise, the conception of a zygote and the growth and development of a fetus and the birth of a child are all the processes of the arrangement of matter, and something about this process causes the existence of consciousness.

Quote:

johnm214M said:

This isn't true and is a common problem of the popular view of science: that it requires fancy gadgetry. We could observe electricity easily a thousand years ago: look at lightening. Induce static charges and watch your hair repell, et cet.

Further, we can detect consciousness at the moment, and nurses do so every day as part of routine assesments. They ask the patient where they are, who they are, and what the day is. An unconcious person doesn't do well with these questions, someone with diminished consciousness may know who they are, but not the others, et cet.




Spot on, science doesn't require large groups of people in white lab coats under the banner 'official science,' rather it is just using your noggin and thinking properly about things.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21772189 - 06/06/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Mind DOES affect brain matter.

Stress will shrink the brain


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #21772790 - 06/07/15 03:49 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Electromagnetic energy isn't a tangible thing, its a concept like love. Saying it doesn't have mass is like saying love doesn't have mass: trivial and misleading.

Nevertheless, if your referring to the systems that have electric potential, they do indeed have greater mass as electrons, protons, have mass.






I disagree that electromagnetic energy is just a concept. We can see certain types of electromagnetic energy. It's called light, and photons have not yet been shown to have mass. 

What you are referring to as electricity, is actually electrical current in the form of electrons, which do indeed have mass. Electrons flow relatively slowly around a circuit, like slow moving water.  However, the current itself is not the energy, nor is the charge. The energy is electrical energy in the form of electromagnetism, which moves at nearly the speed of light. 


Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:


Maybe a few hundred years ago electricity could be observed in a rudimentary way. It certainly wasn't understood or quantified though.




Those goalposts seem to be moving. Do we understand electricity now? What does that mean? Your shifting to pretty hazy concepts here.






My point is that as science develops, we gain a better and deeper understanding of things. We could observe electricity a few hundred years ago. We didn't really understand it though, for example what causes it and where does it come from. Eventually we build devices that have increased the kind of observations we can make and we understand it better now. The same can be said for consciousness at the moment. We know it exists. We don't really know what causes it and where it comes from though, and on a scientific level we won't, until we can learn how to observe it better.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21773229 - 06/07/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

We know that energy can neither be created or destroyed. It's agreed that electricity is not the energy itself. I stated above that the actual energy is electromagnetism. If we look at Orgone's point about glycogen, well that's not the actual energy either is it? It's just a storage container. If we go deeper than glycogen and glucose, we have ATP. But even the ATP is merely a transporter of energy. When a reaction takes place, energy is released in the form of electromagnetism. The cell can then use this for whatever it needs to do.

All energy is essentially electromagnetism. It creates all life. Without it, there would be nothing. Matter is merely a conduit for this energy, a way to organise it. Take the matter away from the energy, and the energy will still exist. But take the electromagnetic energy away from the matter, and nothing can exist. So when I'm talking about "consciousness", I believe what I am actually talking about is electromagnetic energy which is then expressed through the brain/body to create a mind.

So going back to what secondorder is saying. I see where you are coming from regarding mind/brain now, and I agree for the most part. However, I really do think it's important to distinguish between energy and matter here. Our minds are the product of both the physical matter that makes up the brain, and the energy that powers it. If you damage the brain, the mind will be affected. I agree. But if you damage the brain, the energy that powers the mind will not be affected. It is only the ability of that energy to express through the brain that changes, not the energy itself because it is immortal.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (06/07/15 09:06 AM)


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21773271 - 06/07/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The negative effects of EMF in our environment is becoming yet another attack on our well being.  Odd that frequencies chosen likely couldn't be more damaging for things like cell phones and smart meters.  I'm sure it was just an accident.

As always, it's "right in front of us".  Cellular phones?  Damage to cells? 

Then there are the ELF waves that have been shown to create all measure of mind control in the 8-10 Hz frequencies.  One frequency makes the bull lie down instead of charge, another makes your pet cat attack you.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21773279 - 06/07/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

mind over body.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21773283 - 06/07/15 09:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

As always, it's "right in front of us".  ELF waves? sELF pity?


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21773284 - 06/07/15 09:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Exercises:
Convince yourself1 (if you are not already convinced) that you are ugly, unattractive and dull. Go to a party in that frame of mind. Observe how people treat you.
8. Convince yourself (if you are not already convinced) that you are handsome, irresistible and witty. Go to a party in that frame of mind. Observe how people treat you


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21773293 - 06/07/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'm too ugly to even get invited to a party.  Now what?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21773328 - 06/07/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I'm too ugly to even get invited to a party.  Now what?



now look how unhappy you make you feel when you think your ugly.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: youknowyou]
    #21773359 - 06/07/15 09:43 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

youknowyou said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I'm too ugly to even get invited to a party.  Now what?



now look how unhappy you make you feel when you think your ugly.




You're ugly.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21773361 - 06/07/15 09:43 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Convince yourself (if you are not already convinced) that you are handsome, irresistible and witty. Go to a party in that frame of mind. Observe how people treat you




A few years back, I was fit, tan, healthy, had a great job and condo and was feeling awesome. Went out clubbing with my best bud. On the way to the top floor where the action was, we got on the elevator with this hottie. I gave her my best smile and cracked a few jokes. She said "I would never be with you, but your friend here (who never spoke), I would take home right now."

I am 5' 7" and he is 6' 4". Attitude rarely overcomes genetic attraction, but believe all you want.

Now, as to the gay community, different rules apply. Some 20 years earlier, I was a straight body builder whose motorcycle broke down near the Castro district in SF on a ride back from Oregon. Had to leave my bike overnight and only had cash, no credit card. Did not have enough to stay in a hotel and pay for the repair so stayed out all night walking the street in my leather jacket, tight jeans and boots. I got hit on more times in that one night than in my entire life, though male attention was the last thing I desired.

Negative waves did not protect me from the onslaught of horny young men.


--------------------


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #21773398 - 06/07/15 09:57 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Convince yourself (if you are not already convinced) that you are handsome, irresistible and witty. Go to a party in that frame of mind. Observe how people treat you




A few years back, I was fit, tan, healthy, had a great job and condo and was feeling awesome. Went out clubbing with my best bud. On the way to the top floor where the action was, we got on the elevator with this hottie. I gave her my best smile and cracked a few jokes. She said "I would never be with you, but your friend here (who never spoke), I would take home right now."

I am 5' 7" and he is 6' 4". Attitude rarely overcomes genetic attraction, but believe all you want.

Now, as to the gay community, different rules apply. Some 20 years earlier, I was a straight body builder whose motorcycle broke down near the Castro district in SF on a ride back from Oregon. Had to leave my bike overnight and only had cash, no credit card. Did not have enough to stay in a hotel and pay for the repair so stayed out all night walking the street in my leather jacket, tight jeans and boots. I got hit on more times in that one night than in my entire life, though male attention was the last thing I desired.

Negative waves did not protect me from the onslaught of horny young men.




if you own your libido and sexiness/pizazz  you could still probably have an audience in the castro or mission district, from boys or men..... you get to be a daddy.  :ohwell:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleSun King
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21773417 - 06/07/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Be like those guys in the YMCA commercial.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21773526 - 06/07/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Exercises:
Convince yourself1 (if you are not already convinced) that you are ugly, unattractive and dull. Go to a party in that frame of mind. Observe how people treat you.
8. Convince yourself (if you are not already convinced) that you are handsome, irresistible and witty. Go to a party in that frame of mind. Observe how people treat you




Yeah, I've read enough R.A.W to understand how this works. I try not to cling to anything, even my own theories too tightly. It's a forever changing illusory landscape.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21774498 - 06/07/15 02:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

Electromagnetic energy isn't a tangible thing, its a concept like love. Saying it doesn't have mass is like saying love doesn't have mass: trivial and misleading.

Nevertheless, if your referring to the systems that have electric potential, they do indeed have greater mass as electrons, protons, have mass.






I disagree that electromagnetic energy is just a concept. We can see certain types of electromagnetic energy. It's called light, and photons have not yet been shown to have mass.




Energy is an intangible concept, hence electromagnetic energy is an intangible concept. Energy is the capability to do work, which is the exertion of a force over a distance (not to imply you don't know these things, just laying out my thinking). This is an abstract concept like love, not something tangible.




Quote:

Electrons flow relatively slowly around a circuit, like slow moving water.  However, the current itself is not the energy, nor is the charge. The energy is electrical energy in the form of electromagnetism, which moves at nearly the speed of light.




I'm not sure I gather the point here, but I think your suggesting that because electrons move more slowly than the electric potential, this means something mysterious and spooky is happening. If so, this doesn't seem right to me. I can transmit force through any number of objects, such as a stick. The actual atoms in the stick need not move at the speed of sound despite the fact that the force is transmitted at that speed through them. This isn't a special property of electrons if I understand it correctly. Hopefully diecommie or someone can jump in. 



Quote:

My point is that as science develops, we gain a better and deeper understanding of things. We could observe electricity a few hundred years ago. We didn't really understand it though, for example what causes it and where does it come from. Eventually we build devices that have increased the kind of observations we can make and we understand it better now. The same can be said for consciousness at the moment. We know it exists. We don't really know what causes it and where it comes from though, and on a scientific level we won't, until we can learn how to observe it better.




Ok, I suppose that's reasonable, though I don't think you can say we don't know what causes it and where it comes from. Perhaps we do. I think the most you can say for this is that we lack detailed understandings and likely will know more later, including whether or not various theories of the brain and mind are tenable.

Quote:

PocketLady said:
If we look at Orgone's point about glycogen, well that's not the actual energy either is it? It's just a storage container.




Agreed.

Quote:

If we go deeper than glycogen and glucose, we have ATP. But even the ATP is merely a transporter of energy.




Agreed.

Quote:

When a reaction takes place, energy is released in the form of electromagnetism. The cell can then use this for whatever it needs to do.





I don't think so. The energy can be released in any number of forms. At most basic, when uncoupled to other reactions, the energy would simply be kinetic: thermal movement of the molecules.

Quote:

All energy is essentially electromagnetism. It creates all life.




How so? Doesn't seem that way to me. Rolling a ball down a hill may depend on certain EM interactions, but the energy source is gravitation, not EM, it seems to me.

I don't see how EM can be said to create all life either.


Quote:

But if you damage the brain, the energy that powers the mind will not be affected. It is only the ability of that energy to express through the brain that changes, not the energy itself because it is immortal.





How do you explain brain damage manifesting through perosnality changes, increased aggression, et cet? I've seen it with people w/ cancer and there's a bunch of reports about it w/ trauma to various brain parts. This is unlike someone w/ a stroke who has the same personality just lacks the capability of expressing or moving in certain ways. in these cases the people actually have different personalities it appears.

This doesn't seem explainable by the brain-as-medium suggestion you make. If its merely a medium it would seem defects couldn't result in new personalities, only diminished fidelity in transmitting what personality was already there.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: johnm214]
    #21774682 - 06/07/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

E=mc2


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: johnm214]
    #21774733 - 06/07/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Energy is an intangible concept, hence electromagnetic energy is an intangible concept.



Electromagnetic energy isn't intangible you can prove it's existence with the scientific method.  Love is most certainly intangible though.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21775119 - 06/07/15 05:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Energy is an intangible concept, hence electromagnetic energy is an intangible concept.



Electromagnetic energy isn't intangible you can prove it's existence with the scientific method.  Love is most certainly intangible though.





The dic def says: unable to be touched or grasped; not having physical presence.

is intangible. Energy meets this description. It is a property that describes the capacity to do work. Just like a person's usefulness is intangible, so too is the capacity to do work of a physical system.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: johnm214]
    #21780034 - 06/08/15 06:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Energy is an intangible concept, hence electromagnetic energy is an intangible concept.



Electromagnetic energy isn't intangible you can prove it's existence with the scientific method.  Love is most certainly intangible though.





The dic def says: unable to be touched or grasped; not having physical presence.

is intangible. Energy meets this description. It is a property that describes the capacity to do work. Just like a person's usefulness is intangible, so too is the capacity to do work of a physical system.




Incorrect.  When you fill up your tank at the gas station, do you give them a tangible amount of money for a measured amount of potential energy?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: johnm214]
    #21780049 - 06/08/15 06:28 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Electromagnetic radiation most certainly does have a physical presence.  Just because a human can't sense it with it's organs doesn't make something intangible.

If you can measure something with a scientific instrument it's tangible, you can't measure something which doesn't have a physical presence.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


Edited by Cognitive_Shift (06/08/15 06:34 PM)


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21781442 - 06/09/15 12:45 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry I took so long to get back to the thread.

I feel my brain heal spontaneously throughout the day, sometimes as pressure, sometimes as a tickle. It all started on shrooms and only happens if I clear my mind in a somewhat meditative manner.

I only make these statements because you lot are keen intellectuals looking for answers and I feel I'm at a frontier here and I better report back to other intellectuals, because if we're not a team I don't know why we're bothering as a species.

There is something magical about our situation. Just listen to the positive, smart thinkers and discard the worthless bullshit in much of life, and your consciousness will lower its entropy - live courageously, live smart, fight addiction, etc. and then you will see a more lucid construction by your brain/consciousness of the world and you will soon see that it is a fantastical place.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: circastes]
    #21781449 - 06/09/15 12:51 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Oh by the way I hit my head 3 times into a brick wall during an aggressive psychotic episode. Scans revealed nothing but it was probably a diffuse axonal injury, undetectable by current imaging. I could hardly talk and had a blank mind for years. Then I started having dreams of being regenerated and then sleep paralysis much like pre-OBE states where I figured out if I willed it my body/brain/etc. would regenerate, it used to just be these episodes where I would get better but when I took shrooms it started to happen, then after that shroom trip it would happen much more subtly throughout the day. I am almost back to normal.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: circastes]
    #21782146 - 06/09/15 08:32 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:

I feel my brain heal spontaneously throughout the day, sometimes as pressure, sometimes as a tickle. It all started on shrooms and only happens if I clear my mind in a somewhat meditative manner.




I almost don't want to critique your posts because you emanate such a strong call for positivity, cooperation and cohesion, it is necessary and refreshing to hear such expressions. Having said that, I have to point out your mistake. You cannot feel your brain, there are no nociceptors located in your brain. This is why brain surgeries will often be carried out with conscious patients, who are asked to perform a task between different stages of the surgery. This ensures that no brain function is lost during the procedure. You may perceive a feeling of your brain healing, but this will likely just be a misinterpretation of a thought or imagination.

Quote:

PocketLady said:

So going back to what secondorder is saying. I see where you are coming from regarding mind/brain now, and I agree for the most part. However, I really do think it's important to distinguish between energy and matter here. Our minds are the product of both the physical matter that makes up the brain, and the energy that powers it. If you damage the brain, the mind will be affected. I agree. But if you damage the brain, the energy that powers the mind will not be affected. It is only the ability of that energy to express through the brain that changes, not the energy itself because it is immortal.




Yes, I see what you mean, and I acknowledge the importance of the energy in the brain, but what good is the energy being immortal if our mind is affected? Damage a small part of the brain, and you destroy one faculty of mind, damage another part of the brain, and you destroy another faculty of the mind, destroy the entire brain, and you have destroyed the whole mind. In every one of these cases, the energy may live on, but how is that relevant to the existence of our consciousness? If a person's brain has been destroyed, their mind is destroyed with it, why is the continued existence of the energy relevant?


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21782194 - 06/09/15 08:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

lol @ OP and lol@ the study

seems it took 2000 years, or something to catch up with any buddhist on this planet?

science adds abstraction, yet science thinks it knows it all, it's funny
science can add ignorance to people often


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: lessismore]
    #21782242 - 06/09/15 08:58 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

seems a lot of text books need to be rewritten, and maybe all pills need to be reconsidered

the newest "science hit" is giving people psychosomatic illness diagnoses, because now they think they know, "its all the mind"... science sickens me, and worst of all, I used to adhere to it

but never adhered to psychiatry, that's disgusting sometimes, or maybe it's our modern psychiatry that is - the way we treat people to get rid of them in our systems, overriding real diagnoses with fake psychiatric ones like "body dysmorphic disorder" - wtf is even that?

some branches of science are truly crazy, don't subscribe to it all if you can avoid


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: lessismore]
    #21782286 - 06/09/15 09:09 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

science sickens me, and worst of all, I used to adhere to it...  don't subscribe to it all if you can avoid




The computer sitting in front of you was built based on hundreds of different scientific theories, experiments and consensuses. How is it that you do not adhere to science, yet you continue to use it's products? Or do you believe there is some sort of spooky unscientific reason that your computer turns on when you press the ON button, that is unrelated to it's manufacturer and factory?


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21782331 - 06/09/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

There are subfields in science that are truly nasty, in most of what they publicize

At least from my POV, and it's not just one field

It's that science has gotten much too materialistic, so some fields have gotten rotten from inside out (often military / psychiatry could be examples i.e. - but also the "gov sponsored" science that is set to produce false results often, the gov can pay their labs to produce the results they want in many cases)

Science can be nasty often. What do we really need to research would be the good question

Often we research common knowledge...

Often we turn mankind into a materialistic mess, i.e. make people believe they are their brains -> here's a pill

I don't like the materialistic aspect of what science is becoming now a days, i.e. it often thinks it knows everything in the universe , or everything about the human brain, or that people are just having chemical imbalances (ignorance...)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: lessismore] * 1
    #21782442 - 06/09/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it often thinks it knows everything in the universe




You win the retarded post of the month. Science is a method, doesn't think and has no personality flaws.

Keep ranting though. :thumbup:


--------------------


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: lessismore]
    #21782462 - 06/09/15 09:57 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

What do you mean by 'nasty'? That it reveals some truths which are hard to handle?


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Offlineyouknowyou
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21782810 - 06/09/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

it often thinks it knows everything in the universe




You win the retarded post of the month. Science is a method, doesn't think and has no personality flaws.

Keep ranting though. :thumbup:




science contains inevitable flaws. first flaw: it demands observation, and there's no observer in the world, only participants. the fact is that the observer affect the observed and change the observed.

science is not totally objective.


Quote:

secondorder said:
Quote:

science sickens me, and worst of all, I used to adhere to it...  don't subscribe to it all if you can avoid




The computer sitting in front of you was built based on hundreds of different scientific theories, experiments and consensuses. How is it that you do not adhere to science, yet you continue to use it's products? Or do you believe there is some sort of spooky unscientific reason that your computer turns on when you press the ON button, that is unrelated to it's manufacturer and factory?



it seems evident that he doesnt talk about inventions, but how some people use science to defend a materialistic view of the world.


Edited by youknowyou (06/09/15 11:25 AM)


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: youknowyou] * 2
    #21785161 - 06/09/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

it seems evident that he doesnt talk about inventions, but how some people use science to defend a materialistic view of the world.




Many people definitely draw deeper conclusions than are necessary, or wise, from scientific theory. Naturalism or materialism I agree might not be a very logical conclusion to arrive at from our current scientific theories. These are not science though. Science is a practice that can help us to figure out the truth. I even agree with your statement that science is not totally objective. It can't ever be totally objective. But it's a good start. There are certain philosophical barriers (such as Cartesian solipsism) that, once passed, allow us to understand more about the world through scientific principles. In the end, science is really just the application of deductive logical reasoning to the world in a practical manner. Philosophy on the other hand is really just the application of deductive logical reasoning to the world in a theoretical manner.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21786333 - 06/09/15 11:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't expect to be understood, but I got surprised! - only happens on shroomery :wink:


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InvisibleKurt
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Registered: 11/26/14
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21788436 - 06/10/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Quote:

it seems evident that he doesnt talk about inventions, but how some people use science to defend a materialistic view of the world.




Many people definitely draw deeper conclusions than are necessary, or wise, from scientific theory. Naturalism or materialism I agree might not be a very logical conclusion to arrive at from our current scientific theories. These are not science though. Science is a practice that can help us to figure out the truth. I even agree with your statement that science is not totally objective. It can't ever be totally objective. But it's a good start. There are certain philosophical barriers (such as Cartesian solipsism) that, once passed, allow us to understand more about the world through scientific principles. In the end, science is really just the application of deductive logical reasoning to the world in a practical manner. Philosophy on the other hand is really just the application of deductive logical reasoning to the world in a theoretical manner.




Hey second order, I wonder what you mean when you say naturalism or materialism could be the conclusions of scientific theories? Also do you take them to mean the same thing? Many empiricists are not essentially reductionist, or argue for the basis of philosophical naturalism. Neither are they all logicist.

I'd say naturalism, as well, but aside from a materialistic assumption, is not the conclusion, but the philosophical assumption of empirical research. It can respectively in it's openess - and not merely "truth bearance" - more or less represent this consistency. Empiricism also makes a formal assumption of materialism which is not simply empirically based, as you may be yourself signifying.

I'd say the consistency of empirical research is upon epistemic basis, found in holism. As W.O Quine put it we think of bodies of propositions, with a notably positive regard to "theory ladenness". As other pragmatists put it, in more negative terms, we do not naively vest in the meaning of propositions mirroring the nature of the world in a general way.

It may not be the place to argue this point to point, but I would at least volunteer the possible associations of a pragmatist point of view.

I think what I would be able to do in a space of gestures, is point out that what you mean by "practicality" as the logical or deductive position of empiricism, is actually opposed to a pragmatist empiricist's position.

You suggest Descartes. My impression is that Descartes' errors are likely something you might lean on, if you vest in any circumspect or practical resolution of a specifically posed problem of res cogitans the "thinking thing" ("its" solipsism). It is a good point to remember that Descartes method of doubt was posed in in terms of speculative project of grounding scientific knowledge rationally and in certainty. From what point of reference are you likely to say its a problem? Some people say even the whole idea of "methodologically" grounding a certain science is misguided.

I would say analytic minded philosophers are pretty much historically based in trying to void a mind body problem, (Whether in terms of Descartes' rather clearly inconsistent speculative doubt, or Kant's mediating a priori intuition) which they take up, and assume rhetorical and dialectical opposition to, rather than stepping back from the speculative assumptions that lead to these puzzles.

I myself made a critique of the solipsism, or what I would call the position of eccentricity (because the speculations don't reach a point of grounding a position) of Descartes. Specifically it was just the corruption and ultimately ungrounded speculation on the essential subject of knowledge hypokeimenon. In that I am referring to the sense of a subject, as the subject we open in a text book or generally grammatical subject, as something clearly possibly differentiated from the modern subject. I think there stands some appeal to recalling these assumptions. I think it begs the question to think of why we have two equivocal meanings of a subject. A subject of knowledge, and one of doubt and speculation. 

It is not my best writing, but you can find a thread here called "subjectivity and the subject of knowledge" if you are interested in a more deconstructive and backwards looking gesture, to pre-cartesianism.

That aside, as for analytically and logically minded philosophers, I think historically they end up vesting in a more derivative way in the opposed Cartesian ontological value of res extensa extension's "reality" which as you probably are aware formally implies substance in bodies to modern thinking.

(Also, coming to a problem of qualia, which is close to the topic of this thread, analytic philosophers find it in an narrowly isolated framework. Sure there are some like Dan Dennett who attempt to void it completely. Likewise, analytic philosophers who have a thoroughgoing consideration of subjectivity like Thomas Nagel are far and few in between, as well. His famous essay is "What is it like to be a bat". Most analytical philosophers attempt merely to isolate a problematic of qualia.)

But what is the generally positive appeal to res extensa as the root of analytic philosophy? In Descarte's thinking, extention is not much less formalistically conceived than a thinking thing. We clearly have to think of a concept of what we see, formally like a line drawn on a Cartesian coordinate system, representative of a dimension of space.

As I understand, the quintessential move made by analytic philosophers (conceived in a way based on an impression of Descartes anyway) is to say sense " is" extention, and so bearing a general correspondence to a material framework of reality. A sense experience's position which Descartes speculated of, is found externally along with what it in a manner perceives as extention, according to an implicit and insinuated point of reference.

Gottlob Frege was really the one who accomplished analytic philosophy's goal in my opinion. Before him analytic philosophy was pretty unheard of. He was just a mathematician who was particularly against the idea of Kant's "psychologism" or intuitions of space and time guiding our idea of sense experience.

There is a geometrical analogy in Gotlobb Frege's essay "On Sense and Reference" which pretty much demonstrates his point, of practically voiding an assumed problem of psychological or philosophical perspective, by mapping out the positions where sense experience "occurs", as potentially and in a constructive possibly being externally guided by reference.

A point of reference is assumed as implicit, and the extension of sense - "mode of presentation" - is implicitly found equally in respect to variable (symbolically represented) subjects and objects, and thus generally intrasubjectively, all on the same level two dimensions, more to the point. I realize this sounds technical, but just look to the following analogy:

"Let a, b, c be the lines connecting the vertices of a triangle with the midpoints of the opposite sides. The point of intersection of a and b is then the same as the point of intersection of b and c. So we have different designations for the same point, and these names ('point of intersection of a and b,' 'point of intersection of b and c') likewise indicate the mode of presentation; and hence the statement contains actual knowledge."

According to a certain frame of reference sense can be seen as something just "occurring" in respect to referent objects. Hence kt becomes significant as a collecting of information, or data, and analytic philosophy certain problematic manners of speculation were seen fit to void, which would rest well with empiricists dealing with a problem of induction. As long as an implied point of reference or object could be taken as given, sense experience could be seen as implied by position.

More of philosophical bearing, you can see how based on the idea of "position" in regards to an implied point of reference, sense could be ascribed as occurring in propositional contingency, as ideally the sense we make, again as long as a certain frame of reference could be somehow given. That is what is appealed to as being practical or constructive, assuming a frame of reference or logic.

As he himself and especially later analytic philosophers claimed, we can imagine that the analysis of propositional contingencies - positions- is the sense we "make" upon the slate of propositional contingency, which is designating the so called states of affairs (as Wittgenstein coined it) in the world. That is the final insinuation, of a logical empiricism.

Generally logical empiricism is based on the idea that propositionality in general (along with its contingence in content ie "data") mirrors the nature of the world.

I would say that according to logical empiricists, "Practicality" to you means being constructive, and constructive in the particular way of gathering research and collecting data, or clarifying a pedagogical structure (logos) of science.

By point of association, rather than strict difference I would say pragmatists differ on this point, of what is ideally constructive. We do not necessarily assume that propositionality can be insinuated as mirroring the nature of the world, as an idealized states of affairs. And a generally associative point may be noting the general state of affairs, of philosophy - the appeal to propositional contingency, as slate of analysis of the world, or the naive challenging forth of propositions - has been much disclaimed but formally stands, or is to this day easily insinuated, less by analytic philosophers but a more general conjecture of naive realism.

Moderate disclaimers of positivism do not have much say with regard to such a state of affairs, which was always kind of a ridiculous, socially constructed assumption. I don't tend to always identify with being constructive in a moderately critical way. Its kind of beyond the appeal to these gestures IMO.

Generally are still in a morass between strict consolidation of states of affairs, and various theses (idealist, post modernists deconstructivist, and pragmatist) which reject this. There is little to say of middle ways.

But here I would say from a historical perspective at least it seems to me that empirical investigation has its basis, whether it well represents it or not, in naturalism.

It is in a blunt way not strictly logical (empiricism was once posed as recognizing we are unable to prescribe or calculate events), as clearly it does not take any specialized philosophy to point to a problem of induction. I'd say a scientific attitude to this, is in more than one dimension, practical. Moderately, pragmatic empiricists like W.O. Quine argue saliently that philosophy is extended with science, which in that manner finds its basis in naturalism and holism - and significantly - bodies of propositions, not just the slate of propositional analysis. (these arguments can be found in his essay Two Dogmas of Empiricism). Or do a search on Quine's epistemic holism.

Although I think these arguments look to criticize the implicit basis of a rationalized "state of affairs" in philosophy, I hope they can be taken as constructive, and as the basis of further discussion where empiricism would not be so much a rant, but perhaps an appropriate topic in itself.

Anyway these points of connection are "useful" anyway. For now (with my best regards, and some sense of good fun), I'd say down with the "state of affairs" of philosophy and science itself.


Edited by Kurt (06/10/15 03:10 PM)


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: Kurt]
    #21790421 - 06/10/15 09:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

With heavy use of google dictionaries and wikipedia, I was able to make it through your extremely thorough post, with what I think is some form of clarity, and, more importantly, some common ground.

In my post I was using Materialism and Naturalism more or less synonymously, I was making a much lighter point that sometimes people draw deep conclusions from common tendencies of scientific research. For example: Science has encroached on once immaterial ground. Some of the things that were once explained by something immaterial (e.g. souls and spirits) are now explained by material science (bacteria & viruses). If science continues to replace immaterial explanations with material explanations, then eventually everything will have a material explanation.

Again, I don't think this is necessarily a wise conclusion, I would rather remain undecided on the issue, until we understand more. Nevertheless it's a conclusion that many people (even scientists) draw from science all the time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation of your views: I think we have found common ground in the conclusions made from scientific practice; in that they should be surrounded with caveats and conditional statements, purposefully making it difficult to draw deeper conclusions (and therefore make mistakes) about the nature of reality.

So, upon performing scientific experiments, we are dealing with the logical relationship between things as concepts, with almost an indifference to their nature outside of our own minds. I gather you are somewhat fond of Hume?

I really want to continue this conversation but I fear that I am simply not educated enough.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21790774 - 06/10/15 10:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Theory is ok
Applications that's where people and scientists/science go mad

I'll stick to the math, don't try to apply to me!

Science is less real than philosophy you could say, it assumes the world is like we see, it is applied theory

Math is usually unapplied theory, so usually more true within the framework

Philosophy is unapplied too, so true within its framework


Science is not guaranteed to be true, that's why be make so many boundary conditions to fit the real world, because the real world is chaotic often, almost impossible to describe in precision

The problem only comes when some naive science follower thinks science can be applied without boundary conditions to all

And there are as many as those, as there are of naive religion fanatics. It's the whole science vs religion thing over and over again. They will do what it takes to justify their religion "science" - even if it means interpreting it wrong, because they are so focused on proving their point.

"You are your brain chemicals" , thats a good simpleton view, overapplied "science"

It's a shame when there is lots of good science out there, that we got people who don't really know much about science, yet proclaim it (often 10 year old kids).
So we really shouldn't trust anybody who claims they know science on an online board, unless they can prove it with lots of logical reasoning.

And we really shouldn't trust any science study unless it was double blind, with p value etc. - and unless it produces good real world results.

Science theories are only useful when they produce something useful, else we reject them.

"you are your brain chemicals" , that's not very useful, it has been proven wrong in the DSM-IV as fake, yet we continue to use it and claim it

There is a lot of fake science out there

Don't overapply science, if you would make that statement right, it would be like "in some people we can help psychosis by adjusting brain chemicals, but it does have side effects - new thoughts - new personality"


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