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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21770262 - 06/06/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Quote:

Have you seen amputees use their prosthesis by controlling it's movement with their own thoughts?



if by "thought" you are talking about the contents of consciousness, then it is not possible for a thought to control a prosthetic limb.



:lol:  just wow...


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21770324 - 06/06/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

and of the energy that powers it, which I would call consciousness




Seeing as how I know the definition of energy and have rudimentary understanding of biology, I would call it glycogen.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #21770445 - 06/06/15 01:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

In my computer analogy, the power source is a type of energy that has no mass i.e electricity. A few hundred years ago we had no way to scientifically detect electricity. We have no way to scientifically detect consciousness at the moment, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21770618 - 06/06/15 02:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Standard topic switching. I identified the power source and then you pretend you never presented false information to the contrary and just gloss right over. I call this intellectual dishonesty.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #21770740 - 06/06/15 02:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Huh? In what way am I topic switching exactly?

I was replying to your comment about glycogen by suggesting that the ultimate energy source of human awareness (and indeed life itself) is not made of matter, but is actually some form of energy akin to electromagnetism. You suggested that the energy source was matter-based. I am presenting an alternative idea and explaining why it might exist but not yet have been detected.

Incidentally, glycogen/glucose/ATP might transport energy, but it is not the energy itself.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (06/06/15 02:48 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21770925 - 06/06/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:....




Fantastic post. Its rare that I see a poster come on and present truly clear and persuasive posts on a topic as you've done.

Quote:

PocketLady said:
In my computer analogy, the power source is a type of energy that has no mass i.e electricity.




electrons do have mass

But electricity isn't a power source, its a medium through which power may be exerted. This is similar to how a highway is not transportation, only a medium through which transportation my function. Having a highway doesn't get you transportation, nor does electricity's existance provide a power source. As orgone identifies, the brain uses organic chemicals to produce energy, though its probably more clearly fueled by glucose than glycogen. The role of glycogen in the brain isn't particularly clear and glucose appears to be the major energy source.


Quote:

A few hundred years ago we had no way to scientifically detect electricity. We have no way to scientifically detect consciousness at the moment, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.





This isn't true and is a common problem of the popular view of science: that it requires fancy gadgetry. We could observe electricity easily a thousand years ago: look at lightening. Induce static charges and watch your hair repell, et cet.

Further, we can detect consciousness at the moment, and nurses do so every day as part of routine assesments. They ask the patient where they are, who they are, and what the day is. An unconcious person doesn't do well with these questions, someone with diminished consciousness may know who they are, but not the others, et cet.


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InvisibleSun King
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: circastes] * 1
    #21771008 - 06/06/15 03:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Mind changes brain, brain changes mind. Mind can fix brain, brain can destroy mind. I swears on me mum.




Rock smashes scissors.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: johnm214] * 2
    #21771030 - 06/06/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

electrons do have mass

But electricity isn't a power source, its a means of transfering power.




I guess in scientific terms "electricity" actually refers to current. Perhaps I should have used the word "electrical energy" or electromagnetism as I did in another post. Electromagnetic energy has no mass.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
This isn't true and is a common problem of the popular view of science: that it requires fancy gadgetry. We could observe electricity easily a thousand years ago: look at lightening. Induce static charges and watch your hair repell, et cet.

Further, we can detect consciousness at the moment, and nurses do so every day as part of routine assesments. They ask the patient where they are, who they are, and what the day is. An unconcious person doesn't do well with these questions, someone with diminished consciousness may know who they are, but not the others, et cet.




Maybe a few hundred years ago electricity could be observed in a rudimentary way. It certainly wasn't understood or quantified though. The same thing can be said for consciousness at the moment. We can observe it. We don't truly understand what it is and where it comes from though.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21771992 - 06/06/15 09:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

electrons do have mass

But electricity isn't a power source, its a means of transfering power.




I guess in scientific terms "electricity" actually refers to current. Perhaps I should have used the word "electrical energy" or electromagnetism as I did in another post. Electromagnetic energy has no mass.




Electromagnetic energy isn't a tangible thing, its a concept like love. Saying it doesn't have mass is like saying love doesn't have mass: trivial and misleading.

Nevertheless, if your referring to the systems that have electric potential, they do indeed have greater mass as electrons, protons, have mass.

Quote:


Quote:

johnm214 said:
This isn't true and is a common problem of the popular view of science: that it requires fancy gadgetry. We could observe electricity easily a thousand years ago: look at lightening. Induce static charges and watch your hair repell, et cet.

Further, we can detect consciousness at the moment, and nurses do so every day as part of routine assesments. They ask the patient where they are, who they are, and what the day is. An unconcious person doesn't do well with these questions, someone with diminished consciousness may know who they are, but not the others, et cet.




Maybe a few hundred years ago electricity could be observed in a rudimentary way. It certainly wasn't understood or quantified though.




Those goalposts seem to be moving. Do we understand electricity now? What does that mean? Your shifting to pretty hazy concepts here.


Quote:

The same thing can be said for consciousness at the moment. We can observe it. We don't truly understand what it is and where it comes from though.




What is "true understanding" and how do I tell if we have it in regards to something? I think that's a term likely to allow equivocation and is essentially meaningless unless defined.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: Sun King]
    #21772005 - 06/06/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sun King said:
Quote:

circastes said:
Mind changes brain, brain changes mind. Mind can fix brain, brain can destroy mind. I swears on me mum.




Rock smashes scissors.




Paper wraps brain like a sushi roll?


--------------------


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21772162 - 06/06/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think it's as simple as saying that minds are a product of brains and matter alone. The brain is often compared to being like a computer. A computer does not create the electricity which brings it to life. It receives electricity which it then uses to perform certain functions. All computers receive the same energy source (for the most part anyway), but the way that energy is expressed depends upon the design and the components of the computer. If if we talk in humans terms, then the mind is the product of both our hardware (the nervous system itself) and of the energy that powers it, which I would call consciousness.




I should have been clearer. When I use term 'stuff' and 'matter' I was including energy, light, gravity etc. I meant everything that is relevant when surveying physical systems.

Quote:

This is not true. It has been proven in various scientific studies that meditation has various physical effects, including altering the level of neurotransmitters and hormones in the brain/body, and changing the function of the brain. By definition, to reach a meditative state, the frequency of your brainwaves have to change from beta to alpha. Meditation is a mental process, you have to focus your mind in a particular way to reach a meditative state, and yet is has all of these effects.




Your 'disagreement' with me here is really just a semantic misunderstanding. As I said in a previous post, I am using the terms 'mind' and 'consciousness' synonymously. Yes meditation is a mental practice, by meditating you are affecting your mind, brain and body, I have no disagreement with you here. The misunderstanding is about the direction of causes. To say that the mind affects the brain, you would have to demonstrate a causal relationship in the direction of mind affecting brain. Thinking certain things, or performing certain practices (meditation for example) is an act of both brain and mind. The mind is a product of the brain; changing the brain necessitates changes to the mind also, but to conclude that changes to themind lead to changes in the brain you would require a way of measuring changes in the mind independent of the brain, which is both practically and theoretically impossible. How could you measure changes in the mind without doing so via the brain?

Quote:

If you want another example of this, just sit there and think about something happy for a while. Notice how you feel? All those extra endorphin flowing. Now sit and think about something stressful, or sad. Notice how you feel now, all of that cortisol and adrenaline being released. Now tell me that the mind has no effect on the body. Incidentally, high levels cortisol and adrenaline weaken the immune system. On the other hand, studies have been done which show that serotonin boosts the immune system through several different pathways.




Again, I think that our disagreement is superficial. You are mistaking the subjective nature of thoughts and feeling (consciousness, or the 'mind') for the physiological processes that give rise to them. Thinking happy thoughts and subsequently feeling happy feelings are both the subjective products of physical systems. Consciousness is not made of matter, or stuff, or any physically things.. rather, it is the product of such things. If you rearrange physically things into a certain structure, then consciousness simply arises. Remember, we are made of the same stuff as every other physical thing (stars, dirt, gasses etc.) The reason we are conscious, and dirt isn't, is simply because we have been arranged in such a way that produces consciousness, not the other way around. Consciousness can't jump into a physical system and 'bring it to life,' there is no logical defense of a ghost in the machine.

Quote:

The whole thing that sets humans apart from other animals is that we have conscious awareness and control of our minds! Whilst we might be driven by the subconscious a lot of the time, we also have a great deal of control.




This is our first real disagreement. We are just animals with a little bit more brain power than other animals, there is nothing special about our kind. We just do things a bit better than other animals. Chimpanzees, whales, dogs, elephants etc. like us, are conscious, there is no additional thing that we have that other animals do not, other than more brain power and opposable thumbs. You keep using phrases like "we have control of our minds." This is a deep misunderstanding: We are our minds! We are not separate entities that jump into our minds and play around with things, then leave to observe what happens. The 'mind,' 'consciousness,' the 'self' are all one and the same. These things are products of physical systems. Damage the physical systems, and our minds are damaged with them.

Quote:

If you think of something happy right now, it's not due to any change in your brain, it's because YOU decided to do that.




This is the pinnacle of ignorance of neuroscience and neurophysiology. What is this "YOU" that you are referring to? Clearly it is not consciousness you are talking about, clearly it is not the brain you are talking about; a soul perhaps? How can something that is not physical affect what is physical?

Quote:

I for one think this study is extremely interesting :smile:




I do too, I really love this area, what could be more interesting than studying the very thing that is doing the studying? :smile:

Quote:

Maybe a few hundred years ago electricity could be observed in a rudimentary way. It certainly wasn't understood or quantified though. The same thing can be said for consciousness at the moment. We can observe it. We don't truly understand what it is and where it comes from though.




You're right, we don't really understand what consciousness is, it really is a deep mystery. We can observe consciousness, however, we can only observe our own consciousness, there is no way of directly observing someone else's consciousness, only their brain. Also, although we do not understand exactly how consciousness comes into being, it's a fairly logical conclusion that something about the organisation of matter causes consciousness to arise, the conception of a zygote and the growth and development of a fetus and the birth of a child are all the processes of the arrangement of matter, and something about this process causes the existence of consciousness.

Quote:

johnm214M said:

This isn't true and is a common problem of the popular view of science: that it requires fancy gadgetry. We could observe electricity easily a thousand years ago: look at lightening. Induce static charges and watch your hair repell, et cet.

Further, we can detect consciousness at the moment, and nurses do so every day as part of routine assesments. They ask the patient where they are, who they are, and what the day is. An unconcious person doesn't do well with these questions, someone with diminished consciousness may know who they are, but not the others, et cet.




Spot on, science doesn't require large groups of people in white lab coats under the banner 'official science,' rather it is just using your noggin and thinking properly about things.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: secondorder]
    #21772189 - 06/06/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Mind DOES affect brain matter.

Stress will shrink the brain


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #21772790 - 06/07/15 03:49 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Electromagnetic energy isn't a tangible thing, its a concept like love. Saying it doesn't have mass is like saying love doesn't have mass: trivial and misleading.

Nevertheless, if your referring to the systems that have electric potential, they do indeed have greater mass as electrons, protons, have mass.






I disagree that electromagnetic energy is just a concept. We can see certain types of electromagnetic energy. It's called light, and photons have not yet been shown to have mass. 

What you are referring to as electricity, is actually electrical current in the form of electrons, which do indeed have mass. Electrons flow relatively slowly around a circuit, like slow moving water.  However, the current itself is not the energy, nor is the charge. The energy is electrical energy in the form of electromagnetism, which moves at nearly the speed of light. 


Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:


Maybe a few hundred years ago electricity could be observed in a rudimentary way. It certainly wasn't understood or quantified though.




Those goalposts seem to be moving. Do we understand electricity now? What does that mean? Your shifting to pretty hazy concepts here.






My point is that as science develops, we gain a better and deeper understanding of things. We could observe electricity a few hundred years ago. We didn't really understand it though, for example what causes it and where does it come from. Eventually we build devices that have increased the kind of observations we can make and we understand it better now. The same can be said for consciousness at the moment. We know it exists. We don't really know what causes it and where it comes from though, and on a scientific level we won't, until we can learn how to observe it better.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21773229 - 06/07/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

We know that energy can neither be created or destroyed. It's agreed that electricity is not the energy itself. I stated above that the actual energy is electromagnetism. If we look at Orgone's point about glycogen, well that's not the actual energy either is it? It's just a storage container. If we go deeper than glycogen and glucose, we have ATP. But even the ATP is merely a transporter of energy. When a reaction takes place, energy is released in the form of electromagnetism. The cell can then use this for whatever it needs to do.

All energy is essentially electromagnetism. It creates all life. Without it, there would be nothing. Matter is merely a conduit for this energy, a way to organise it. Take the matter away from the energy, and the energy will still exist. But take the electromagnetic energy away from the matter, and nothing can exist. So when I'm talking about "consciousness", I believe what I am actually talking about is electromagnetic energy which is then expressed through the brain/body to create a mind.

So going back to what secondorder is saying. I see where you are coming from regarding mind/brain now, and I agree for the most part. However, I really do think it's important to distinguish between energy and matter here. Our minds are the product of both the physical matter that makes up the brain, and the energy that powers it. If you damage the brain, the mind will be affected. I agree. But if you damage the brain, the energy that powers the mind will not be affected. It is only the ability of that energy to express through the brain that changes, not the energy itself because it is immortal.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (06/07/15 09:06 AM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21773271 - 06/07/15 09:16 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The negative effects of EMF in our environment is becoming yet another attack on our well being.  Odd that frequencies chosen likely couldn't be more damaging for things like cell phones and smart meters.  I'm sure it was just an accident.

As always, it's "right in front of us".  Cellular phones?  Damage to cells? 

Then there are the ELF waves that have been shown to create all measure of mind control in the 8-10 Hz frequencies.  One frequency makes the bull lie down instead of charge, another makes your pet cat attack you.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlineyouknowyou
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21773279 - 06/07/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

mind over body.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21773283 - 06/07/15 09:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

As always, it's "right in front of us".  ELF waves? sELF pity?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: PocketLady]
    #21773284 - 06/07/15 09:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Exercises:
Convince yourself1 (if you are not already convinced) that you are ugly, unattractive and dull. Go to a party in that frame of mind. Observe how people treat you.
8. Convince yourself (if you are not already convinced) that you are handsome, irresistible and witty. Go to a party in that frame of mind. Observe how people treat you


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21773293 - 06/07/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'm too ugly to even get invited to a party.  Now what?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlineyouknowyou
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Re: mind affects health, study finds [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21773328 - 06/07/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I'm too ugly to even get invited to a party.  Now what?



now look how unhappy you make you feel when you think your ugly.


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