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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22492208 - 11/07/15 05:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Well technology has to progress.  At least nowadays backwards compatibility is always in mind, so you don't have tons of proprietary formats of shit all over the place, like apple likes to do with their chargers, file formats, etc.  It would be nice if all the markets had more competition so they stopped getting complacent and rebranding the same shit though.

And yeah bottlenecking happens when one piece of the hardware is slowing down all the rest of them.  That happens if you have a good graphics card and a bad CPU, because the CPU has to serve all of the frames to the GPU to be processed, and if it can't keep up, then the GPU's potential is wasted.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Inocuole]
    #22492265 - 11/07/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

well that's just my beef. i can't stand when i get a new GPU because i know another new better one is just around the corner, and with my luck, something surpassing by great length the one i just bought, for around the same price, and i just messed up by thinking i was getting the best for it's price point and for what i wanted, but really i could've been getting something infinitely better for the same price...or something like those 'consolation cards' i was talking about, where it's something that's AS GOOD AS another card but a cheaper price, and it's like "ok i could have just gotten that instead".

it's fucking balls.

PS: and i don't see how a Quad Core processor could bottleneck my computer but it seemingly does. maybe cause it's Quad and not just singular 'awesome processor'...Intel processors are the shit, i've got AMD which is meh.

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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22492282 - 11/07/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I'll admit it's pretty hard to settle on something when you know new shit is around the corner but, I've learned to accept what I've got for the most part.  It's always about price to performance ratio and how bad you really need it.  You're paying for the enjoyment you're gonna get out of it til it's time to upgrade again, which takes a few years if you stay in the upper midrange bracket.  Some people almost never upgrade because they just don't mind turning down details.  I... kinda mind turning down details though.


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Inocuole]
    #22492320 - 11/07/15 06:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

me too, i don't play high graphics games on my PC, i play like...retro and indie games and stuff but not AAA titles, because i wouldn't be able to stand tweaking everything to look as good as it can while running as good as it can, when i'll never be happy at either end of the spectrum.

i'll either run shit completely low and get the best frame rates, or turn shit up to it's full and run at bat-shit insane frame-rates of the low kind. but that's way back when...when i first played Doom 3, lol, it was a slow experience. now i couldn't possibly take it, and i'd just turn everything all the way down for the sake of the best FPS.

though, no shit, DUH, of course i want my games to look their best too, it's just annoying either way. until i get a more than moderate upgrade though, where i can turn everything up and maybe just sacrifice a few details here and there. i can sacrifice AA if i can keep the rest of textural and object details and particle effects and lighting and shadow options intact and whatnot.

but anything less than that and i feel like i might as well have just got it on console...unless the FPS on console is complete shit is known to bog on certain games, but...again, i'd rather have it run fast or not at all, on PC, either way...and to do that you usually have to sacrifice graphics which i am usually not willing to do. i'm weird and touchy, apparently.

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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22492976 - 11/07/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
well that's just my beef. i can't stand when i get a new GPU because i know another new better one is just around the corner, and with my luck, something surpassing by great length the one i just bought, for around the same price, and i just messed up by thinking i was getting the best for it's price point and for what i wanted, but really i could've been getting something infinitely better for the same price...or something like those 'consolation cards' i was talking about, where it's something that's AS GOOD AS another card but a cheaper price, and it's like "ok i could have just gotten that instead".

it's fucking balls.





This is just the way it works with technology (and cars... ). You buy the best thing in the world right now.... something better WILL come out in the next week/month/whatever.

You have a couple choices:
1. Always be on a "bleeding edge" of technology.. and always have the best of the best. To do this, you should be filthy rich.

2. Buy the best of the best, but understand that new and better technology WILL come out later, but you are OK WITH THAT. You are happy with what you have because it performs well for what you need it for. When what you have is no longer good enough for what you need it for - THEN you upgrade. 

3. Buy LAST generation's technology at a fraction of the price, and still have something good but be happy knowing that you paid far less than the early adopters. When technology is brand new, the latest and greatest is always going to be the most expensive. BUT when the new stuff comes out... the "Old" stuff (last generation) drops in price. Then be happy that you got a deal and a good bang for your buck.

Nvidia puts out a new generation of video cards every single year. Same with Intel/AMD in terms of their CPUs/GPUs.
The new cards are always going to be 10-30% better than the last ones.

MOST people roughly follow a 3-4 generation upgrade path.
For example say you have a GTX 560Ti.
You don't want to upgrade when they release a GTX 660Ti, because you are only going up like 10-15% in performance for the cost of an entire new GPU.
But lets say you wait 3 years, then upgrade to a GTX 970. That's when the upgrade becomes worth it. You are buying a whole new card, but you are seeing a MASSIVE MASSIVE upgrade.
So that's the general rule with graphics cards... wait at least 3 generations to upgrade. That's ~generally~ when cards start becoming obsolete, and upgrades become majorly worth it.
Unless, you are talking about upgrading from say a GT550Ti (a very basic, ENTRY level gaming card).. to say a GTX 680 (which the x80 series are the "high end performance" cards of Nvidia. Then you are going from a shitty entry level card to a next generation super high performance card.

Generally speaking for a gaming card you want to stay in the upper-midrange bracket as mentioned, then you are future proof for a couple years at least.
For Nvidia this generally means getting a X60 card or up. (960, 970, 980, etc)
x60 - generally the best gaming performance card for your buck. You want the best bang for your buck without sacrificing much performance.. you get a x60.
x70 - a higher performing card - generally about ~15% more performance than the x60 for about $100-150 more. Is the minimal performance upgrade worth the cost? That's up to the consumer.
x80 - The "Flagship" card of any generation. These will generally be the highest end performance cards of that generation, unless they do "special" cards like the 590 (dual GPUs) or the Titan. These are generally around the $500 mark.

Generally just get the best thing you can afford, then be happy with it for 3+ years. Upgrade when you actually NEED to.

Quote:


PS: and i don't see how a Quad Core processor could bottleneck my computer but it seemingly does. maybe cause it's Quad and not just singular 'awesome processor'...Intel processors are the shit, i've got AMD which is meh.




What processor do you have?
The number of cores means very little aside from for multitasking.
What matters MOST in processor performance is the architecture & efficiency of the CPU
GHz and number of cores matters as well - but not nearly as much as the architecture of the CPU

Let's look at a direct comparison of two somewhat older CPUs as an example
http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/405/AMD_Phenom_II_X2_560_BE_vs_Intel_Core_i3_i3-2100.html

Both CPUs are dual core and pretty much identical in specs. The Phenom actually has a higher CPU frequency of 3.3 GHz.
You would think the Phenom would win in tests right? Nope.
The i3 stomps it in every single category, why.. because it uses a different architecture (processes instructions differently) and is a much more efficient CPU.

You will find the same case is quite true for the modern AMD CPUs vs the Intel offerings.
While AMD was playing catch up in the past and has been equal before.. Intel has gone pretty nuts.. and their current CPUs run CIRCLES around AMD's.

Just take a look at the high performance CPU benchmarks - https://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
Intel CPUs COMPLETELY dominate the highest performance slots.
AMD doesn't even come into the picture until the ~65th down or so.
So yeah.. AMD CPUs are a lot cheaper.. and they may be "good enough".. but they are also not as good as Intel's.
These are just raw CPU benchmark stress tests, there are many different ways you can test CPUs to see how good they process different instructions. But you will find it even more disgusting in some of those tests, when I say the Intel CPUs runs circles I mean they run circles. The current Intel CPUs are just so disgustingly powerful but also super ultra efficient and it's only getting better. I can't in good conscious recommend an AMD CPU right now.. spend the extra $100 and get an Intel.


To run the latest games, you don't need a state of art, $4,000 gaming rig.
I spent like ~$1.5k on my current gaming rig ~4 1/2 years ago.. I've only upgraded to more RAM, and upgraded the video card once.
I'm rocking an i5 2500k overclocked to 4.5GHz stable. A P67FTW motherboard, 32GB RAM, GTX 760, 256GB SSD, 2TB HDD
It's an "older" generation system compared to whats out there now... but it still handles absolutely everything I throw at it with ease.
Sure, I could dump a bunch of money into upgrading to current generation stuff.. but do I want to? No.. no need..
I don't have the latest and greatest shit, but it's still solid and handles what I use it for.

Until I either start having performance issues due to obsolete/outdated hardware or something fails... I have no reason to upgrade.
Maybe when the NEXT generation of Nvidia cards comes out, whatever is after the 900 series.. I might consider upgrading then. By that time, I might be considering upgrading my CPU & motherboard.


That's another thing, you can only upgrade so far. You can upgrade your GPU - as long as your CPU is powerful enough to keep up with it.

For example you COULD put a GTX Titan into an older system with a Intel Core 2 Duo CPU (which were good in like... 2008).
Would it work? Probably.. because even though it's a new generation PCIe 3.0 GPU and a PCIE2.0 motherboard.. it's backwards compatible.
But would it work well? Fuck no... that's like putting a Ferrari engine into a Pinto.. the engine is gonna sputter and perform like shit due to lack of high flow fuel and shit.
That's what you get when you put a super high performance GPU with a shitty much older CPU, you see major bottlenecking issues...
the CPU simply can't keep up with the raw processing power of the GPU and you'll have stuttering and shit

But have a modern CPU, decent motherboard, a mid-high end GPU, SSD, and you are fucking sailing. It's not rocket science.. just takes a little bit of research..
but a gaming PC just think of performance coming down to the links in the chain
CPU > GPU > RAM > SSD > HDD
CPU performance and GPU performance are the main factors..
but if all other things are equal and you have a slow shitty HDD that will become your bottleneck. SSD is essential for a modern gaming rig.


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Shroomism]
    #22493007 - 11/07/15 08:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I actually found the 970 to have about a 30-40% performance increase over the 960.  Firestrike scores are at something like 6000 and 10,000.

I just gave the 960 to my girlfriend.  She's not quite as picky.  But yeah, x60, x70 and x80 from the NVIDIA lineup is all pretty good.  I wanna try an AMD card but I'm scared after I messed with their CPUs.  I know it's not really the same at all but, it's hard to take the leap of faith.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Shroomism]
    #22493010 - 11/07/15 09:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

first off: i know that's why i want an I-something or other (I7), because i HAVE a Phenom II and it sucks caked on donkey penis.

secondly: what is this overclocking shit...look...that shit can't fuck up your computer can it? i've never tried overclocking dick-all before.

thirdly: stupid cycles of standardized wang-swanging be that there market  of cars and chips, it's a goddamn game.











a cock game.

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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22493034 - 11/07/15 09:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Overclocking doesn't really damage the card or chip if you don't increase the voltage.  You can get a good amount of free mHz out of any CPU or GPU without increasing voltage.  And then if you know what you're doing, you can increase voltage as well to get even more.  I'm overclocked to 3.8 from 3.5 on the CPU.  Run sliightly hotter, and also slightly faster.  That's where water cooling comes in.


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Inocuole]
    #22493051 - 11/07/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

no way am i gonna overheat my card from spec. but you say you can overclock with no voltage increase? how the shit do you do that...? i don't even think my card can do that.

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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22493064 - 11/07/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

EVGA Precision X is what I use to overclock the GPU.  Pretty user friendly.  Just has sliders you can fuck with.  The CPU is overclocked in the BIOS, and is less so.

Increasing the core clock makes it hotter, but it's not at risk unless it's already overheating.  Gotta keep CPUs at about 60C and GPUs at about 80C for best longevity.


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22493096 - 11/07/15 09:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
I actually found the 970 to have about a 30-40% performance increase over the 960.  Firestrike scores are at something like 6000 and 10,000.

I just gave the 960 to my girlfriend.  She's not quite as picky.  But yeah, x60, x70 and x80 from the NVIDIA lineup is all pretty good.  I wanna try an AMD card but I'm scared after I messed with their CPUs.  I know it's not really the same at all but, it's hard to take the leap of faith.




Yeah.. that's with the 900 (Kepler) series.. there were some pretty dramatic improvements.
I was just speaking in general terms, with most of the past cards.. 560-560 or 660-670 was generally a much more modest improvement, like 15%.
960 to 970 is a pretty massive jump in performance. The current Nvidia GPUs are pretty ridiculous too.
And next gen is going to be even more ridiculous. That's why I'm an Nvidia / Intel fanboy.




Quote:

akira_akuma said:
first off: i know that's why i want an I-something or other (I7), because i HAVE a Phenom II and it sucks caked on donkey penis.

secondly: what is this overclocking shit...look...that shit can't fuck up your computer can it? i've never tried overclocking dick-all before.




Yes, you want an i7 something.
Overclocking is simply making your CPU (or GPU) run at faster than advertised clock speeds..
For example my i5-2500k runs at default, boosted up to 3.7 GHz. I have it overclocked to run at 4.5GHz.
It's not a crazy overclock, but its enough to give me a nice performance upgrade and it's a completely 100% stable overclock. 

It generally doesn't hurt the hardware unless HEAT. Heat is the number one killer of hardware and the number one thing to look out for especially when overclocking.
Which is why most overclockers use watercooling, or get really big aftermarket heatsinks if using air cooling.
Temp is the number one thing. As long as your CPU/GPU isn't overheating or crashing.. you are fine.

Voltage is another potential killer.. but that generally ties into the heat thing.
If you are overvolting the shit out of a CPU to get super high clock speeds.. that may raise the heat levels to unsustainable temps and fry the CPU
Although all CPUs have built-in failsafes, and will shut themselves off at about 95c (or should..). But temps above 70c or so will start to damage the CPU.
GPUs can sustain much higher temps on average, 80c-90c is about as high as you want to see them.

But with the modern CPUs, you don't even really need to mess with the voltage to get a respectable moderate overclock.
It's as easy as just changing a setting or two in BIOS and adjusting the clock multiplier, then testing to see if its stable.

GPU overclocking is even easier, with EVGA Precision or MSI Afterburner, you can adjust the GPU clock/ memory clock / voltage with sliders.
You can also set a custom fan profile to tell the fan what RPMs to run at under what temps.. for example go to max fan speed above 75c.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Shroomism]
    #22493118 - 11/07/15 09:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

yeah overclocking, isn't it built into options as like a kinda basic thing now?

anyways, yeah, overheating...my last computer...lol, yeah it was so hot in my room...really...that it made something overheat in my computer...i hadn't cleaned it in quite awhile...it foofed into flames...i had to extinguish it, and after the hectic Left 4 Dead 2, i was all like wtf holy shit.

true story.

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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Shroomism]
    #22493140 - 11/07/15 09:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, why the hell can you clock your i5-2500k to 4.5 but I get pretty high temps if I boost my i5-4690k to like 4.0GHz?  I know "overclockability" is kind of a lottery but you have me thinking I put my thermal paste on shittily or something.  At 100% load it gets up to about 62C only OC'd to 3.8GHz.  I rarely hit 100% load but, you know. :shrug:  I believe I have a corsair H75 cooling it.  Granted, it doesn't bottleneck anything the way it is, but I personally expected a little more when I got it.


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22493142 - 11/07/15 09:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

That's the other thing.. you need to clean out the dust buildup.
Caught on fire? That's pretty extreme. That's likely either extreme overheating and conductive dust buildup.. or possibly shitty PSU that catastrophically failed.. or a combination of both.

Dust buildup = heat , therefore dust is your enemy.
Fuck canned air. Get one of these bad boys and have 10x the power and never buy canned air again in your life.


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Shroomism]
    #22493144 - 11/07/15 09:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

That thing is badass.


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Shroomism]
    #22493160 - 11/07/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

oh it was the power source, and you know, i figured it was probably the dust that contributed to the electrical problem that fried it.

didn't know about the heat conductiveness through dust...pretty dumb.

but yeah i have a vacuum, like that but shittier. didn't work well at all...and i didn't clean my comp too much, by then i rarely even played games anymore (on teh PC), and well...yeah i didn't treat it very nicely. i technically kinda hate computers. i'll like computers in like ten more years.

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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22493165 - 11/07/15 09:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

They might not even be remotely the same anymore at that point.  Everybody will be fucking with oculus headsets and shit.


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Inocuole]
    #22493172 - 11/07/15 09:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Okay, why the hell can you clock your i5-2500k to 4.5 but I get pretty high temps if I boost my i5-4690k to like 4.0GHz?  I know "overclockability" is kind of a lottery but you have me thinking I put my thermal paste on shittily or something.  At 100% load it gets up to about 62C only OC'd to 3.8GHz.  I rarely hit 100% load but, you know. :shrug:  I believe I have a corsair H75 cooling it.  Granted, it doesn't bottleneck anything the way it is, but I personally expected a little more when I got it.




Well there is the "Silicon Lottery" - every CPU is slightly different, even two CPUs off the same batch could have different overclocking potential.
But if you are getting really high temps at only 4.0GHz, then it's likely you applied the thermal paste shittly as you said, lol.
Thermal paste application is kind of an art. Not too much, not too little..
I find the slightly larger than rice-size grain dab in the middle of the heatspreader works best for me...
Then I just smush the heatsink down evenly and slowly, and let the pressure of that disperse it.
This seems to be the most consistent way to do it... when you goop it down and spread it around before seating the heatsink, that can be prone to air bubbles and inconsistent depths..

I would take it apart, clean with rubbing alcohol and try again.
What temps were you hitting at 4.0GHz, and what were you using to test it??

With Prime95 under max load my CPU maxes out at about 65-69c at 4.5GHz. It's a little hot, but still within spec, and that's under max load.
When I'm gaming and just using my PC normally, I don't really see temps get above 50-55c


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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Shroomism]
    #22493190 - 11/07/15 09:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I don't remember the exact temps, I didn't test it under full load because the idle temps were higher than I wanted them.  Wasn't really cool with idling around 48-50C.  I already get up to 60C in certain games at 3.8 so I didn't bother stress testing at 4.0 and above.

And yeah I did the whole.. credit card super thin layer bullshit.  Was paranoid that a rice grain glob wouldn't get evenly dispersed by smoothing the metal together.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
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Re: Fallout 4 [Re: Inocuole]
    #22493194 - 11/07/15 09:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
That thing is badass.




It's no fucking joke. It comes with a variety of different attachment for directing air.
It has .75HP of air blowing power :lol: It's about as loud as a vacuum cleaner.. thing is loud.. but holy fuck it blows some air.
I'd estimate its about 10x more powerful air then what comes out of canned air.
I use it to dust the fuck out of my PC every couple weeks.
It probably paid for itself about 3 years ago... and I got it on sale for $40.
I've cleaned my computer for years with it. Canned air is what like $10 for 3 cans?
I've let friends borrow it.. I use it for other tasks as well.. like on my car.. it's fucking great.

I also have some demciflex filters designed for my case that covers all the vents and prevent a shitload of dust from getting in, just clean the filters off every couple of weeks.


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