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OfflineDr. Fungus
another man
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Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 233
Loc: primate body, cranium cha...
Last seen: 2 months, 16 hours
Grain substrate failed to fruit
    #21753406 - 06/02/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Hi!

Somebody I know asked me to check if someone knowledgeable could point to the culprit of the issue he experienced.

My friend had a very small scale grow situated in a closet, it always worked for him in the past. He propagated the same strain (B+) since 2009. Original specimen was a spore syringe from well reputed source. His lab was airtight and had an offshoot from the main air-conditioning duct system that pumped fresh air that passed through HEPA filter. That air created positive pressure inside the space, giving extra safeguards against contams and providing air circulation as well. The two grow chambers were clear plastic containers with plenty of 2-in air holes near bottom filled with synthetic cotton stuffing, the inside had a little perlite to retain moisture and also he had humidifier set on timer, humidity and oxygen electronic readers, etc. His set up was done to the book and also trial and error, and worked fine in the past. Now, he would usually spore-print directly into clean container filled with lukewarm sterile water, seal it and store it in the fridge. He would then inoculate quart Masons with pasteurized winter berries through injection port in the lid. I’m skipping technicalities such as incubation conditions, substrate or casing recipes and other preparations as you are probably already getting sick of this, but I just wanted to stress that he adhered to sterile techniques and established method which worked fine for years; he rarely had any contamination and usually had a decent yield. He didn’t use agar clones but rather direct syringe-to-jar inoculation. Everything was fine as long as he used his spores within a year from the time they were collected and always stored cold (but not frozen).

Then, due to circumstances, his “inoculation cycles” became less frequent, sometimes every two years… What he noticed since then is that it would take the mycelium longer each time to colonize the grain and to fruit. ANOTHER IMPORTANT MOMENT – HE NOTICED THAT MYCELIUM IN THE COLONIZING JARS WOULD BECOME LESS AND LESS “ROPY” AND WOULD NOT HAVE AS MANY RHIZOMORPHS AS BEFORE; THEIR DECLINE CORRESPONDED TO THE SLOWDOWN AND DROP IN THE FRUITING OUTPUT.

Eventually, he reached the point when he would have nice looking and colonized jars of grain, birth and case them to the tee, and then nothing would happen at all; the mycelium would re-bind the grain kernels into one solid cake-like mass and just sit there. Nothing in his procedures, environmental factors or any other elements of his setup has changed.

So, the question is what led to this decline in vitality. There are three possible culprits, but this is where an expert opinion is critical. Possibility # 1 - spores stored even under optimal conditions have an expiration date. Possibility # 2 – propagating the organism via its own spores (instead of using agar clones) over and over for years resulted in diminishing potential on genetic level, due to some initial bad trigger that now cannot be identified. Possibility # 3 – evil entities block his further attempts of enlightenment. :wink:

I’d greatly appreciate any suggestions, ideas or directions. Thank you very much!

Dr. Fungus


--------------------
"Para mi solo recorrer los caminos que tienen corazon, cualquier camino que tenga corazon. Por ahi yo recorro, y la unica prueba que vale es atravesar todo su largo. Y por ahi yo recorro mirando, mirando, sin aliento."

(For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly.)

~ Don Juan
___________________________________________________________________________________________

"You've got to jump off cliffs all the time and build your wings on the way down."
~Ray Bradbury


Edited by Dr. Fungus (06/27/15 10:11 PM)


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OfflineMoxyOx
Grazin'

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 1,439
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
Re: Grain substrate failed to fruit [Re: Dr. Fungus]
    #21753803 - 06/02/15 05:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Genetics changed during each cycle. Mushrooms do not grow in the wild the same they do inside a lab. Having them constantly go through colonization means that is what they are being programmed to do best. Sounds like they reached a point where that is ALL they could do.


--------------------
No one behind, no one ahead.
The path the ancients cleared has closed.
And the other path, everyone's path,
easy and wide, goes nowhere.
I am alone and find my way.


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OfflineDr. Fungus
another man
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Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 233
Loc: primate body, cranium cha...
Last seen: 2 months, 16 hours
Re: Grain substrate failed to fruit [Re: MoxyOx]
    #21754354 - 06/02/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks MoxyOx!

So you're saying the organism develops this trend over generations and ends up in a state when it looks absolutely healthy but doesn't fruit?
This scenario I described is rather odd, since this tendency gradually but steadily progressed over the years, and in every case the culture colonized the substrate just fine, but it did so slower each time and started lacking rich rhizomorphs in its mycelial structures.


--------------------
"Para mi solo recorrer los caminos que tienen corazon, cualquier camino que tenga corazon. Por ahi yo recorro, y la unica prueba que vale es atravesar todo su largo. Y por ahi yo recorro mirando, mirando, sin aliento."

(For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly.)

~ Don Juan
___________________________________________________________________________________________

"You've got to jump off cliffs all the time and build your wings on the way down."
~Ray Bradbury


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Invisible36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Grain substrate failed to fruit [Re: MoxyOx]
    #21755439 - 06/02/15 11:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MoxyOx said:
Genetics changed during each cycle. Mushrooms do not grow in the wild the same they do inside a lab. Having them constantly go through colonization means that is what they are being programmed to do best. Sounds like they reached a point where that is ALL they could do.




That's ridiculous. Don't listen to this advice, OP.

What likely happened is that those spores stored in water didn't last. Dry spore prints can last years. If they're in water you have probably 6 months tops. That combined with not being careful about which fruits are printed bred you an inferior strain.

Buy a new syringe, and edit the vendor name out of your post. They sell spores for microscopy only.

Next time, only print the mushrooms that show the traits you want. Keep prints dry until you're ready to use them.


--------------------
Redd Foxx said:
If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more.

Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.


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OfflineMoxyOx
Grazin'

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 1,439
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 20 days
Re: Grain substrate failed to fruit [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #21757848 - 06/03/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

"That combined with not being careful about which fruits are printed bred you an inferior strain."

Yes, thats called natural selection. Except in this instance it's not so much natural as it is man-forced onto the organism. Genetics changed drastically from the initial spore to the final. What about that EXPLANATION is wrong?

Or do you not understand the science behind genetics and that no two cubes have the same code?


--------------------
No one behind, no one ahead.
The path the ancients cleared has closed.
And the other path, everyone's path,
easy and wide, goes nowhere.
I am alone and find my way.


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OfflineJenn
Supreme Leader
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/27/15
Posts: 200
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Grain substrate failed to fruit [Re: MoxyOx]
    #21777808 - 06/08/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I've had spore syringes last nearly 2 years in and out of a fridge.


--------------------
Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.


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