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OfflineWAN
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Predatory pricing by big businesses
    #21749690 - 06/01/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Hello.  I am sure most of you guys have heard of big businesses (Walmart, for one) that engage in things like predatory pricing.  A brief definition: basically company setting the pricing of goods or services at such a low level that other suppliers cannot compete and are forced to leave the market.  And later after all the competitors (usually small-scale, mom-and-pop types of stores) go out of business, said company then raise the prices back up.

Now, questions:

1.  How should we change our laws as to stop this kind of abuse?
2.  Should we, though?  I ask this question to those of you who believe in the magical hand of the free market, saying how everything will auto-correct without government intervention.

Thanks.


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OfflineSkellies


Registered: 06/02/15
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: WAN]
    #21751666 - 06/02/15 07:45 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'm assuming were talkin' US right?

A common critique of capitalism is that the "end goal" will inevitably lead to a monopoly. Eventually one organization will be able to out compete all others. I've heard a lot of proposals intended to prevent this or arguments against it even happening. Currently the FTC (federal trade commission) is responsible for enforcing antitrust legislation to ensure that no organization gains an extremely large market share. I've heard arguments defending monopolies before too. It's not possible for an entity to raise prices too much or else no-one buys their stuff and someone will find a way to provide it for less money. I'm not sure that convinces me so much but take it where you will.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Skellies]
    #21752173 - 06/02/15 10:49 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

There have been very few examples of natural monopolies that have existed in the market. Almost every single one of them has been directly caused by business and government intermingling. So i disagree that the "end goal" of capitalism is monopoly.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: WAN]
    #21753950 - 06/02/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Govt needs to keep its meddling nose out of things. Those "mom and pop" stores that close and people cry over are badly run which is why they can't compete. They would rather pay $4 for something, mark it up to $15 and sell one or two a year. Walmart pays $3 for the same thing, sells it for $6 and sells hundreds a year.

Which do you want to buy from, the mom and pop store who is trying to rape you or the big chain that is making less but selling a ton?

>And later after all the competitors (usually small-scale, mom-and-pop types of stores) go out of business, said company then raise the prices back up.

I see no price increases at wallyworld, just normal inflation. If they tried the greedy tactics of the small stores they would drive away their customers and wm's competitors would eat their lunch, places like target, kmart, and others.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21755138 - 06/02/15 10:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Govt needs to keep its meddling nose out of things. Those "mom and pop" stores that close and people cry over are badly run which is why they can't compete. They would rather pay $4 for something, mark it up to $15 and sell one or two a year. Walmart pays $3 for the same thing, sells it for $6 and sells hundreds a year.



More like Walmart pays $3 for same thing, and sells it for $4, while the mom and pop stores buy it for $4.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21756351 - 06/03/15 07:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Govt needs to keep its meddling nose out of things. Those "mom and pop" stores that close and people cry over are badly run which is why they can't compete. They would rather pay $4 for something, mark it up to $15 and sell one or two a year. Walmart pays $3 for the same thing, sells it for $6 and sells hundreds a year.



More like Walmart pays $3 for same thing, and sells it for $4, while the mom and pop stores buy it for $4.




No, because there are many expenses in running a large operation. They have to pay help, utilities, cost of the building and so on. They may not sell it for $6, that was just an example. They may sell it for $5, $7 or some other figure. They have to make some markup to cover the many expenses they have. Each store may pay over $10,000 a month in electricity alone.

Answer the question:

>Which do you want to buy from, the mom and pop store who is trying to rape you or the big chain that is making less but selling a ton?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21757626 - 06/03/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Govt needs to keep its meddling nose out of things. Those "mom and pop" stores that close and people cry over are badly run which is why they can't compete. They would rather pay $4 for something, mark it up to $15 and sell one or two a year. Walmart pays $3 for the same thing, sells it for $6 and sells hundreds a year.




That's not always how it works though. Walmart can afford to sell things at a loss for a while just to drive competition out of town. Small business can't afford to lower their prices that much, so they close down. When the competition is gone, Walmart basically has a monopoly and can set prices accordingly.

Quote:


Which do you want to buy from, the mom and pop store who is trying to rape you or the big chain that is making less but selling a ton?




I know many of the people who run local stores in my area, and they aren't trying to "rape" me. I often prefer to shop there, even if the prices are slightly higher. I know other people who feel differently. More factors go into choosing where to shop than price alone.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21758736 - 06/03/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Walmart benefits from scale.  It is a simple economic concept.  Walmart is a boon to consumers because their prices are lower than other retailers because they buy in much higher volume and get lower prices.  They also have much larger real estate and thus get better deals on rent.  Tough shit for their competition.  Consumers win and by consumers I mean people who are not rich.  Rich people do not shop at Walmart.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21758986 - 06/03/15 08:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Walmart benefits from scale.  It is a simple economic concept.  Walmart is a boon to consumers because their prices are lower than other retailers because they buy in much higher volume and get lower prices.  They also have much larger real estate and thus get better deals on rent.  Tough shit for their competition.  Consumers win and by consumers I mean people who are not rich.  Rich people do not shop at Walmart.




This is true, read it and weep, leftists. I think most of you shop at wm but like to bad mouth it on the internet. I go there now and then, I shop where I get the best deals unless I have to drive too far. I order from amazon and ebay too, no driving.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21759618 - 06/03/15 10:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Walmart benefits from scale.  It is a simple economic concept.  Walmart is a boon to consumers because their prices are lower than other retailers because they buy in much higher volume and get lower prices.  They also have much larger real estate and thus get better deals on rent.  Tough shit for their competition.




This is true, read it and weep, leftists.



I agree with that part.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Consumers win and by consumers I mean people who are not rich.



No, consumers don't win.

- Walmart stores destroy almost three local jobs for every two they create.
- Walmart cost America an estimated 196,000 jobs as a result of importing from China.
- Walmart pays significantly less money than other retail firms.
- Each Walmart store costs taxpayers an estimated $1 million in public assistance usage by employees.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21759697 - 06/03/15 11:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Walmart benefits from scale.  It is a simple economic concept.  Walmart is a boon to consumers because their prices are lower than other retailers because they buy in much higher volume and get lower prices.  They also have much larger real estate and thus get better deals on rent.  Tough shit for their competition.  Consumers win and by consumers I mean people who are not rich.  Rich people do not shop at Walmart.




They are better for consumers in terms of price, I agree. But if they drive out their competition and create a monopoly, that isn't good for consumers.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21760706 - 06/04/15 08:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Fal, an obvious hate walmart page is proof of nothing.

>- Walmart stores destroy almost three local jobs for every two they create.

Are you saying it takes 3 jobs by inept competitors to sell the same number of goods wm sells with 2 jobs? Who is paying for that extra job that seems not to be needed? The public of course. You want the public to pay for an unneeded job. If there is any truth to it which is doubtful.

>- Walmart cost America an estimated 196,000 jobs as a result of importing from China.

Correction, the public chooses to buy Chinese junk, wm has never said buy chink junk and not usa junk. Now you blame the public's buying habits on a store chain. Look around, see how much usa made goods are in other stores including little ones.

>- Walmart pays significantly less money than other retail firms.

They pay what people are willing to work for. If other jobs paid more, people would work there so your argument is obviously invalid.

>- Each Walmart store costs taxpayers an estimated $1 million in public assistance usage by employees.

Estimated by whom? More nonsense. I suppose now you think wm is responsible for the welfare state and not your beloved left wing kooks? Lets blame wm for us being in Iraq and other countries where we don't belong. Lets blame them for obumblecare and drug laws. For your information, small stores often pay min wage, wm pays more than that and benefits too.

You can't blame all our problems on wm, which is what you are trying to do. Without wm we would buy the same Chinese crap, still have lots of unemployment from obumble's policies, and the average consumer would be paying higher prices and have less money in his pocket. You want the long suffering consumer to pay even more and get less.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21761146 - 06/04/15 10:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Also OPs theory is interesting and all but in teality wallmart does not, and has never had a monopoly.  So basically the OP is full of shit.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21761220 - 06/04/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Fal, an obvious hate walmart page is proof of nothing.

>- Walmart stores destroy almost three local jobs for every two they create.

Are you saying it takes 3 jobs by inept competitors to sell the same number of goods wm sells with 2 jobs? Who is paying for that extra job that seems not to be needed? The public of course. You want the public to pay for an unneeded job. If there is any truth to it which is doubtful.

>- Walmart cost America an estimated 196,000 jobs as a result of importing from China.

Correction, the public chooses to buy Chinese junk, wm has never said buy chink junk and not usa junk. Now you blame the public's buying habits on a store chain. Look around, see how much usa made goods are in other stores including little ones.

>- Walmart pays significantly less money than other retail firms.

They pay what people are willing to work for. If other jobs paid more, people would work there so your argument is obviously invalid.

>- Each Walmart store costs taxpayers an estimated $1 million in public assistance usage by employees.

Estimated by whom? More nonsense. I suppose now you think wm is responsible for the welfare state and not your beloved left wing kooks? Lets blame wm for us being in Iraq and other countries where we don't belong. Lets blame them for obumblecare and drug laws. For your information, small stores often pay min wage, wm pays more than that and benefits too.

You can't blame all our problems on wm, which is what you are trying to do. Without wm we would buy the same Chinese crap, still have lots of unemployment from obumble's policies, and the average consumer would be paying higher prices and have less money in his pocket. You want the long suffering consumer to pay even more and get less.




"Without wm we would buy the same Chinese crap"

Not if we put tariffs on it, Wal-Mart is the result of horrible economic policies, not the cause.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman] * 1
    #21762710 - 06/04/15 06:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Walmart is the result of sound economic policies.  Protectionism is not sound economic policy.  Neither is Luddism.  The Walmart whiners would have us smash windows to keep glaziers employed


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21762862 - 06/04/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Walmart is the result of sound economic policies.  Protectionism is not sound economic policy.  Neither is Luddism.  The Walmart whiners would have us smash windows to keep glaziers employed




I agree.  Walmart is great.  Mom and pop shops are crap.  The average american consumes more now than 20 or 40 years ago.  More energy, more food, bigger house, more cars, etc.  This is a result of market economics and trade, not protectionism.  Protectionism brings poverty.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #21763112 - 06/04/15 08:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Walmart is the result of sound economic policies.  Protectionism is not sound economic policy.  Neither is Luddism.  The Walmart whiners would have us smash windows to keep glaziers employed




I agree.  Walmart is great.  Mom and pop shops are crap.  The average american consumes more now than 20 or 40 years ago.  More energy, more food, bigger house, more cars, etc.  This is a result of market economics and trade, not protectionism.  Protectionism brings poverty.




More consumption is based on productivity and technology gains, not globalization.

"Protectionism brings poverty"

Really?  So shipping good manufacturing jobs out of the US and then buying the product from a third world economy creates prosperity? :facepalm:

Why has every developed economy in the world fallen on its ass the past 25 years?  Because of globalization.

Globalization has helped only one part of the economy, the top 1/100 of 1%.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21763127 - 06/04/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Walmart is great



agree with this

Quote:

Mom and pop shops are crap



completely disagree with this. Mom and Pop shops are the backbone of this country. How do you think walmart began? I'll give you a hint:


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21763149 - 06/04/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

If you like things now, you will love them after obummer gets his tpp and ttip trade agreements. There is a good reason why its secret, its because its so full of crap the public would rise up if they found out. They plan to keep it under wraps and by the time the evil details are known, people will be too worn out to protest very much. They treat us like mushrooms.

The wm whiners want us to pay top dollar to incompetent retailers who sell the same Chinese crap, pay low wages and have poor service.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlineqman
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21763182 - 06/04/15 08:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
If you like things now, you will love them after obummer gets his tpp and ttip trade agreements. There is a good reason why its secret, its because its so full of crap the public would rise up if they found out. They plan to keep it under wraps and by the time the evil details are known, people will be too worn out to protest very much. They treat us like mushrooms.

The wm whiners want us to pay top dollar to incompetent retailers who sell the same Chinese crap, pay low wages and have poor service.




We got people in this thread trying to tell us buying shit from China creates economic prosperity , that's total nonsense BS.

There's a dam good reason why they are keeping the details of the TPP secret, it's going to fuck over the majority of the US working class, global trade agreements are NOT good for the US worker or consumer.

How did NAFTA work out for the US middle class after 20 years?  A fucking disaster.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21773368 - 06/07/15 09:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"Protectionism brings poverty"

Really?  So shipping good manufacturing jobs out of the US and then buying the product from a third world economy creates prosperity? :facepalm:





Absolutely.  That is why the American middle class has more resources available to it now than ever before and in addition the global poverty rate has plummeted in the last couple generations.  The rising tide has lifted all boats.


Quote:

More consumption is based on productivity and technology gains, not globalization.




Why do you think you can separate one from the other?  Trade fuels technology and productivity gains.  Economics of scale, division of labor and free exchanges of ideas and goods lead to higher efficiency of production and stimulate innovation.


Quote:

Why has every developed economy in the world fallen on its ass the past 25 years?




They haven't.  The average citizen in developed economies has more resources available to them now than ever before.


Edited by DieCommie (06/07/15 10:01 AM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21778331 - 06/08/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Protectionism brings poverty"

Really?  So shipping good manufacturing jobs out of the US and then buying the product from a third world economy creates prosperity? :facepalm:





Absolutely.  That is why the American middle class has more resources available to it now than ever before and in addition the global poverty rate has plummeted in the last couple generations.  The rising tide has lifted all boats.


Quote:

More consumption is based on productivity and technology gains, not globalization.




Why do you think you can separate one from the other?  Trade fuels technology and productivity gains.  Economics of scale, division of labor and free exchanges of ideas and goods lead to higher efficiency of production and stimulate innovation.


Quote:

Why has every developed economy in the world fallen on its ass the past 25 years?




They haven't.  The average citizen in developed economies has more resources available to them now than ever before.




"the American middle class has more resources available to it now than ever before"

Even if this statement were true (which it isn't), it would be through productivity gains, not globalization. Real wages have been dropping in all developed economies the past 30 years, the working class has the worst balance sheet they have had in decades, they can't afford these available "resources".

"trade fuels technology and productivity gains"

Free and balance trade does, but we don't have balanced trade today, that's the big difference.  We have the lowest worker participation rate in over 35 years, we have no wage growth with a massive excess pool of labor. There is no one around that is suggesting that the US working class has been making gains the past few decades, why are you trying to make that case?  The economic statistics disagree with your assessment.

Having a big screen TV, a Apple computer, and a Honda Accord doesn't mean the middle class has "more resources".  The middle class has less income and wealth, they are loaded with debt, they have a more difficult labor market in compete in today.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21778880 - 06/08/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Globalization only accounts for at most a small fraction of those problems. 

To be perfectly frank, its pathetic and depresseing watching so many people debate all theaellse outlying issues like changing them will actually fix the economy.  Almost everyone is missing the main point about what is wrong woth the economy.

the main problem is our monetary/banking aystem.  Economies all over the world are literally having the blood sucked out of them by corrupt, predatory banking cartels, bent on world domination.  They have turned the economy into a giant ponzi/pyramid scheme woth them at the top.  The only way to start to reverse the damage Is to end the federal reserve and re-instate sound money.  Antthing short od this and you all will continue to squallble over irrelevant fringe issues of little significance while wondering why nothing changes.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21779044 - 06/08/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/13/16 10:16 AM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21779272 - 06/08/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe some people can afford more cars, a bigger house etc but many are below the poverty line. How does that fit with your belief that real wages are going up? If you believe all data then you must believe the unemployment rate is going way down so says the liar in the white house. But fewer people are working today than ever before and many have to work at part time jobs.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Shins]
    #21781282 - 06/08/15 11:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The only way to start to reverse the damage Is to end the federal reserve and re-instate sound money.  Antthing short od this and you all will continue to squallble over irrelevant fringe issues of little significance while wondering why nothing changes.



How is the Federal Reserve to blame for Wall Street taking control of the country?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21782298 - 06/09/15 09:12 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Do a little research fal and you won't have to ask so many questions. No one said wall st is in control of the country.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21782735 - 06/09/15 10:59 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Shins said:
The only way to start to reverse the damage Is to end the federal reserve and re-instate sound money.  Antthing short od this and you all will continue to squallble over irrelevant fringe issues of little significance while wondering why nothing changes.



How is the Federal Reserve to blame for Wall Street taking control of the country?





Keynsian economics, low interest rates, fractional reserve bankimg, wall st. Bailouts, quantitative easing,

all of these things benedit the banks.

The fedetal sreserve works for the banks, and the banks are the shareholders at the federal reserve - blatant conflict of interest.

Wall st, the federal reserve,  and the government all have a revvimg door and all collude,  you have former bankers who go on to work for the fed, and bankers either working for the government or funding a large portion on campaigns. 


You could not be stupid enough to deny that the Fed works to prop up Wall st couls you?  Or maybe it is because the Fed also props up your socialism too?  Like I said before, you have created a monster.  The Fed is useful to socialists because it allows you to fund spending that would not be possible otherwise, but you have also opened the door to all of the corruption and wall st. Collusion with the banks.  Then you idiots have the nerve to blame capitalism for wall st.  While your precious fed sit there injectiong cash every day, and bailing out wall st whenever they screw up.  That is not capitalism.  The government, the fed, and its think tanks are riddled with banking execs.  You have created a monster which cannot be stopped now without severe repirations, all in the name of socialism, you guys are NOT social justice warriors,  you're immature kids who lack yhe wisdom and forsight to see the real world consequences of your cursory intentions.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Shins]
    #21783421 - 06/09/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Keynsian economics, low interest rates, fractional reserve bankimg, wall st. Bailouts, quantitative easing,

all of these things benedit the banks.



All of these things benefit everyone.  Congress is to blame for not getting enough of the benefits to Main Street.

Quote:

Shins said:
The fedetal sreserve works for the banks, and the banks are the shareholders at the federal reserve - blatant conflict of interest.



Congress determines the Federal Reserve's objectives, and Fed profits go to the US Treasury.

Quote:

Shins said:
Wall st, the federal reserve,  and the government all have a revvimg door and all collude,  you have former bankers who go on to work for the fed, and bankers either working for the government or funding a large portion on campaigns.



So how much did Ben Bernanke make as chairman of the Federal Reserve?  :popcorn:

Quote:

Shins said:
You could not be stupid enough to deny that the Fed works to prop up Wall st couls you?  Or maybe it is because the Fed also props up your socialism too?



The Fed works to prop up the economy, and has been very successful at it.  Again, if that's not going to Main Street, blame Congress.

Quote:

Shins said:
Like I said before, you have created a monster.  The Fed is useful to socialists because it allows you to fund spending that would not be possible otherwise, but you have also opened the door to all of the corruption and wall st. Collusion with the banks.  Then you idiots have the nerve to blame capitalism for wall st.  While your precious fed sit there injectiong cash every day, and bailing out wall st whenever they screw up.  That is not capitalism.  The government, the fed, and its think tanks are riddled with banking execs.  You have created a monster which cannot be stopped now without severe repirations, all in the name of socialism, you guys are NOT social justice warriors,  you're immature kids who lack yhe wisdom and forsight to see the real world consequences of your cursory intentions.



Like I said before, substitute socialism for capitalism in your statement, and it is just as accurate.  The Fed has nothing to do with Socialism vs Capitalism.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Shins]
    #21783425 - 06/09/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/31/wages-arent-stagnating-theyre-plummeting/

"High school dropouts' earnings have fallen 66 percent since 1969, and people with some college- the median level of education in the US- have seen earnings fall by a third"

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

"For most US workers, real wages, - that is, after inflation is taken into account- have been falling for decades- regardless of whether the economy has been adding or subtracting jobs"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandimicco/2015/02/13/jobs-the-real-unemployment-rate-please-anyone/

The real unemployment rate is near 16% or some even suggest near 20%, how does one consume with no job?  Food stamps?

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/average-credit-card-debt-household/

Consumers are loaded with debt, average of $16k in credit card debt, this doesn't even include auto, home, and student debt which are at all-time highs.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/04/26/Americans-Low-Savings-Rate-Bad-Sign-Good-Economy

Of course, they also have no to little in savings.
 
"Forty-four percent of Americans are either in debt, have no savings at all, or have only enough savings to tide them over for up to three months"


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21783445 - 06/09/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>Quote:

Shins said:
Keynsian economics, low interest rates, fractional reserve bankimg, wall st. Bailouts, quantitative easing,

all of these things benedit the banks.



>All of these things benefit everyone.  Congress is to blame for not getting enough of the benefits to Main Street.

They do not benefit everyone. What about savers? You want them to make nothing on their deposits? Might as well spend every dime we make. You blame congress but never obumble.

>Congress determines the Federal Reserve's objectives

The fed does what it wants. Did you know they recently ignored a subpoena from congress?

>The Fed works to prop up the economy, and has been very successful at it.

You really think the present economy is very successful or was that just a knee jerk response? How about the crash of '08 and '09? Success there too? When the inevitable financial collapse comes, who will you blame, the gop?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21784958 - 06/09/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Maybe some people can afford more cars, a bigger house etc but many are below the poverty line.




If you have a big house and car how can you possibly be below the poverty line?  That sounds like a ridiculous poverty line to me.  The US poverty line is ridiculously high.


Quote:

Stonehenge said:How does that fit with your belief that real wages are going up?





I don't know what a "real wage" is.  My claim, supported by evidence, is that resource consumption is going up.  My further claim is that resource consumption is the best, and perhaps only, real measure of a material quality of life.



Quote:

But fewer people are working today than ever before and many have to work at part time jobs.




And yet they are fatter then ever and in the biggest houses in history.  We are so rich they can not work and still live in opulence.  Is this supposed to be a bad thing?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21785021 - 06/09/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/14/16 11:37 AM)


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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21785351 - 06/09/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>>Quote:

>>Stonehenge said:
Maybe some people can afford more cars, a bigger house etc but many are below the poverty line.


>If you have a big house and car how can you possibly be below the poverty line?  That sounds like a ridiculous poverty line to me.  The US poverty line is ridiculously high.

If you read my post more carefully, you would see I was saying "some" have more cars, a bigger house, etc. But many are below the poverty line meaning they do not have these things.

>>Quote:

>>But fewer people are working today than ever before and many have to work at part time jobs.

>And yet they are fatter then ever and in the biggest houses in history.  We are so rich they can not work and still live in opulence.  Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

Many poor people are fat, I blame that on crap food, high fructose cs, and chemicals in our diet. People out of work or who can only find part time do not have the "biggest houses in history" or will soon lose them.

>We are so rich they can not work and still live in opulence.

You are correct that by historical standards today's poor live better than the middle class did years ago, and better than some that were considered rich. Many do it via govt assistance, aka handouts from liberals, or by playing the debt game.

Not all are rich, we still have the homeless. The left sees the solution as taking what the rich have and handing it to poor people. Lenin, marx, engles, all believed that. We see posters and even mods in this forum pushing the same crap that has never worked.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21785370 - 06/09/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you read my post more carefully, you would see I was saying "some" have more cars, a bigger house, etc. But many are below the poverty line meaning they do not have these things.




My posted statistics use the median rather than the mean to avoid this.  A rapper buying 100 cars would not change the median.  Many do not afford cars, but more do now than ever before.


Quote:

Not all are rich, we still have the homeless.




Thats true.  But homeless people in the US still consume a lot of resources.  Sometimes more than a housed person.  The fact that they cannot manage those resources and fritter them away for whatever reason is why they cannot maintain a home.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21785685 - 06/09/15 09:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

If you read my post more carefully, you would see I was saying "some" have more cars, a bigger house, etc. But many are below the poverty line meaning they do not have these things.




My posted statistics use the median rather than the mean to avoid this.  A rapper buying 100 cars would not change the median.  Many do not afford cars, but more do now than ever before.





I agree "some" have more cars, bigger houses, more of many things. I'm doing better than 10 years ago, much better. But that proves nothing. Some people are doing worse despite trying hard. That is true too.

Quote:

Not all are rich, we still have the homeless.




Quote:

Thats true.  But homeless people in the US still consume a lot of resources.  Sometimes more than a housed person.  The fact that they cannot manage those resources and fritter them away for whatever reason is why they cannot maintain a home.




There is a lot of truth to that. Many people do not have enough sense to manage their own affairs or they have addictions. They will not listen to advice of course. In a Darwinian viewpoint, they are losers in the game of life. But our social conscience does not allow us to let people die if we can prevent it. Not when they are out where we can see them. So we end up with our tug of war between the darwinists and the bleeding heart liberals. I think there is a lot of abuse of govt handouts.

I can see some social programs being worth the cost but not the runaway welfare state which is just getting worse every year. They penalize workers and coddle the lazy.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21786581 - 06/10/15 01:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Walmart is the result of sound economic policies.  Protectionism is not sound economic policy.  Neither is Luddism.  The Walmart whiners would have us smash windows to keep glaziers employed




The fact is simple. Most assholes that whine about Walmart end up shopping there. I've barely been to Walmart 20 times in my life. If I don't want to go I don't go. I consider it "bottom of barrel bargain bin." I don't like it. No one has to support these shit businesses if they don't want to.

They could buy canned food and send it to Africa. They could do anything. They shop there. I take a shit in Walmart. Then I leave. Why support the cheapest store? I'd rather go to Toys R Us


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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