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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21773368 - 06/07/15 09:46 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"Protectionism brings poverty"

Really?  So shipping good manufacturing jobs out of the US and then buying the product from a third world economy creates prosperity? :facepalm:





Absolutely.  That is why the American middle class has more resources available to it now than ever before and in addition the global poverty rate has plummeted in the last couple generations.  The rising tide has lifted all boats.


Quote:

More consumption is based on productivity and technology gains, not globalization.




Why do you think you can separate one from the other?  Trade fuels technology and productivity gains.  Economics of scale, division of labor and free exchanges of ideas and goods lead to higher efficiency of production and stimulate innovation.


Quote:

Why has every developed economy in the world fallen on its ass the past 25 years?




They haven't.  The average citizen in developed economies has more resources available to them now than ever before.


Edited by DieCommie (06/07/15 10:01 AM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21778331 - 06/08/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Protectionism brings poverty"

Really?  So shipping good manufacturing jobs out of the US and then buying the product from a third world economy creates prosperity? :facepalm:





Absolutely.  That is why the American middle class has more resources available to it now than ever before and in addition the global poverty rate has plummeted in the last couple generations.  The rising tide has lifted all boats.


Quote:

More consumption is based on productivity and technology gains, not globalization.




Why do you think you can separate one from the other?  Trade fuels technology and productivity gains.  Economics of scale, division of labor and free exchanges of ideas and goods lead to higher efficiency of production and stimulate innovation.


Quote:

Why has every developed economy in the world fallen on its ass the past 25 years?




They haven't.  The average citizen in developed economies has more resources available to them now than ever before.




"the American middle class has more resources available to it now than ever before"

Even if this statement were true (which it isn't), it would be through productivity gains, not globalization. Real wages have been dropping in all developed economies the past 30 years, the working class has the worst balance sheet they have had in decades, they can't afford these available "resources".

"trade fuels technology and productivity gains"

Free and balance trade does, but we don't have balanced trade today, that's the big difference.  We have the lowest worker participation rate in over 35 years, we have no wage growth with a massive excess pool of labor. There is no one around that is suggesting that the US working class has been making gains the past few decades, why are you trying to make that case?  The economic statistics disagree with your assessment.

Having a big screen TV, a Apple computer, and a Honda Accord doesn't mean the middle class has "more resources".  The middle class has less income and wealth, they are loaded with debt, they have a more difficult labor market in compete in today.


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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21778880 - 06/08/15 01:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Globalization only accounts for at most a small fraction of those problems. 

To be perfectly frank, its pathetic and depresseing watching so many people debate all theaellse outlying issues like changing them will actually fix the economy.  Almost everyone is missing the main point about what is wrong woth the economy.

the main problem is our monetary/banking aystem.  Economies all over the world are literally having the blood sucked out of them by corrupt, predatory banking cartels, bent on world domination.  They have turned the economy into a giant ponzi/pyramid scheme woth them at the top.  The only way to start to reverse the damage Is to end the federal reserve and re-instate sound money.  Antthing short od this and you all will continue to squallble over irrelevant fringe issues of little significance while wondering why nothing changes.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21779044 - 06/08/15 02:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/13/16 10:16 AM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21779272 - 06/08/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe some people can afford more cars, a bigger house etc but many are below the poverty line. How does that fit with your belief that real wages are going up? If you believe all data then you must believe the unemployment rate is going way down so says the liar in the white house. But fewer people are working today than ever before and many have to work at part time jobs.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Shins]
    #21781282 - 06/08/15 11:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
The only way to start to reverse the damage Is to end the federal reserve and re-instate sound money.  Antthing short od this and you all will continue to squallble over irrelevant fringe issues of little significance while wondering why nothing changes.



How is the Federal Reserve to blame for Wall Street taking control of the country?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21782298 - 06/09/15 09:12 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Do a little research fal and you won't have to ask so many questions. No one said wall st is in control of the country.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21782735 - 06/09/15 10:59 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Shins said:
The only way to start to reverse the damage Is to end the federal reserve and re-instate sound money.  Antthing short od this and you all will continue to squallble over irrelevant fringe issues of little significance while wondering why nothing changes.



How is the Federal Reserve to blame for Wall Street taking control of the country?





Keynsian economics, low interest rates, fractional reserve bankimg, wall st. Bailouts, quantitative easing,

all of these things benedit the banks.

The fedetal sreserve works for the banks, and the banks are the shareholders at the federal reserve - blatant conflict of interest.

Wall st, the federal reserve,  and the government all have a revvimg door and all collude,  you have former bankers who go on to work for the fed, and bankers either working for the government or funding a large portion on campaigns. 


You could not be stupid enough to deny that the Fed works to prop up Wall st couls you?  Or maybe it is because the Fed also props up your socialism too?  Like I said before, you have created a monster.  The Fed is useful to socialists because it allows you to fund spending that would not be possible otherwise, but you have also opened the door to all of the corruption and wall st. Collusion with the banks.  Then you idiots have the nerve to blame capitalism for wall st.  While your precious fed sit there injectiong cash every day, and bailing out wall st whenever they screw up.  That is not capitalism.  The government, the fed, and its think tanks are riddled with banking execs.  You have created a monster which cannot be stopped now without severe repirations, all in the name of socialism, you guys are NOT social justice warriors,  you're immature kids who lack yhe wisdom and forsight to see the real world consequences of your cursory intentions.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Shins]
    #21783421 - 06/09/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Keynsian economics, low interest rates, fractional reserve bankimg, wall st. Bailouts, quantitative easing,

all of these things benedit the banks.



All of these things benefit everyone.  Congress is to blame for not getting enough of the benefits to Main Street.

Quote:

Shins said:
The fedetal sreserve works for the banks, and the banks are the shareholders at the federal reserve - blatant conflict of interest.



Congress determines the Federal Reserve's objectives, and Fed profits go to the US Treasury.

Quote:

Shins said:
Wall st, the federal reserve,  and the government all have a revvimg door and all collude,  you have former bankers who go on to work for the fed, and bankers either working for the government or funding a large portion on campaigns.



So how much did Ben Bernanke make as chairman of the Federal Reserve?  :popcorn:

Quote:

Shins said:
You could not be stupid enough to deny that the Fed works to prop up Wall st couls you?  Or maybe it is because the Fed also props up your socialism too?



The Fed works to prop up the economy, and has been very successful at it.  Again, if that's not going to Main Street, blame Congress.

Quote:

Shins said:
Like I said before, you have created a monster.  The Fed is useful to socialists because it allows you to fund spending that would not be possible otherwise, but you have also opened the door to all of the corruption and wall st. Collusion with the banks.  Then you idiots have the nerve to blame capitalism for wall st.  While your precious fed sit there injectiong cash every day, and bailing out wall st whenever they screw up.  That is not capitalism.  The government, the fed, and its think tanks are riddled with banking execs.  You have created a monster which cannot be stopped now without severe repirations, all in the name of socialism, you guys are NOT social justice warriors,  you're immature kids who lack yhe wisdom and forsight to see the real world consequences of your cursory intentions.



Like I said before, substitute socialism for capitalism in your statement, and it is just as accurate.  The Fed has nothing to do with Socialism vs Capitalism.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Shins]
    #21783425 - 06/09/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/07/31/wages-arent-stagnating-theyre-plummeting/

"High school dropouts' earnings have fallen 66 percent since 1969, and people with some college- the median level of education in the US- have seen earnings fall by a third"

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

"For most US workers, real wages, - that is, after inflation is taken into account- have been falling for decades- regardless of whether the economy has been adding or subtracting jobs"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandimicco/2015/02/13/jobs-the-real-unemployment-rate-please-anyone/

The real unemployment rate is near 16% or some even suggest near 20%, how does one consume with no job?  Food stamps?

https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/average-credit-card-debt-household/

Consumers are loaded with debt, average of $16k in credit card debt, this doesn't even include auto, home, and student debt which are at all-time highs.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/04/26/Americans-Low-Savings-Rate-Bad-Sign-Good-Economy

Of course, they also have no to little in savings.
 
"Forty-four percent of Americans are either in debt, have no savings at all, or have only enough savings to tide them over for up to three months"


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21783445 - 06/09/15 02:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>Quote:

Shins said:
Keynsian economics, low interest rates, fractional reserve bankimg, wall st. Bailouts, quantitative easing,

all of these things benedit the banks.



>All of these things benefit everyone.  Congress is to blame for not getting enough of the benefits to Main Street.

They do not benefit everyone. What about savers? You want them to make nothing on their deposits? Might as well spend every dime we make. You blame congress but never obumble.

>Congress determines the Federal Reserve's objectives

The fed does what it wants. Did you know they recently ignored a subpoena from congress?

>The Fed works to prop up the economy, and has been very successful at it.

You really think the present economy is very successful or was that just a knee jerk response? How about the crash of '08 and '09? Success there too? When the inevitable financial collapse comes, who will you blame, the gop?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21784958 - 06/09/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Maybe some people can afford more cars, a bigger house etc but many are below the poverty line.




If you have a big house and car how can you possibly be below the poverty line?  That sounds like a ridiculous poverty line to me.  The US poverty line is ridiculously high.


Quote:

Stonehenge said:How does that fit with your belief that real wages are going up?





I don't know what a "real wage" is.  My claim, supported by evidence, is that resource consumption is going up.  My further claim is that resource consumption is the best, and perhaps only, real measure of a material quality of life.



Quote:

But fewer people are working today than ever before and many have to work at part time jobs.




And yet they are fatter then ever and in the biggest houses in history.  We are so rich they can not work and still live in opulence.  Is this supposed to be a bad thing?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: qman]
    #21785021 - 06/09/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/14/16 11:37 AM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21785351 - 06/09/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

>>Quote:

>>Stonehenge said:
Maybe some people can afford more cars, a bigger house etc but many are below the poverty line.


>If you have a big house and car how can you possibly be below the poverty line?  That sounds like a ridiculous poverty line to me.  The US poverty line is ridiculously high.

If you read my post more carefully, you would see I was saying "some" have more cars, a bigger house, etc. But many are below the poverty line meaning they do not have these things.

>>Quote:

>>But fewer people are working today than ever before and many have to work at part time jobs.

>And yet they are fatter then ever and in the biggest houses in history.  We are so rich they can not work and still live in opulence.  Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

Many poor people are fat, I blame that on crap food, high fructose cs, and chemicals in our diet. People out of work or who can only find part time do not have the "biggest houses in history" or will soon lose them.

>We are so rich they can not work and still live in opulence.

You are correct that by historical standards today's poor live better than the middle class did years ago, and better than some that were considered rich. Many do it via govt assistance, aka handouts from liberals, or by playing the debt game.

Not all are rich, we still have the homeless. The left sees the solution as taking what the rich have and handing it to poor people. Lenin, marx, engles, all believed that. We see posters and even mods in this forum pushing the same crap that has never worked.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21785370 - 06/09/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you read my post more carefully, you would see I was saying "some" have more cars, a bigger house, etc. But many are below the poverty line meaning they do not have these things.




My posted statistics use the median rather than the mean to avoid this.  A rapper buying 100 cars would not change the median.  Many do not afford cars, but more do now than ever before.


Quote:

Not all are rich, we still have the homeless.




Thats true.  But homeless people in the US still consume a lot of resources.  Sometimes more than a housed person.  The fact that they cannot manage those resources and fritter them away for whatever reason is why they cannot maintain a home.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: DieCommie]
    #21785685 - 06/09/15 09:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

If you read my post more carefully, you would see I was saying "some" have more cars, a bigger house, etc. But many are below the poverty line meaning they do not have these things.




My posted statistics use the median rather than the mean to avoid this.  A rapper buying 100 cars would not change the median.  Many do not afford cars, but more do now than ever before.





I agree "some" have more cars, bigger houses, more of many things. I'm doing better than 10 years ago, much better. But that proves nothing. Some people are doing worse despite trying hard. That is true too.

Quote:

Not all are rich, we still have the homeless.




Quote:

Thats true.  But homeless people in the US still consume a lot of resources.  Sometimes more than a housed person.  The fact that they cannot manage those resources and fritter them away for whatever reason is why they cannot maintain a home.




There is a lot of truth to that. Many people do not have enough sense to manage their own affairs or they have addictions. They will not listen to advice of course. In a Darwinian viewpoint, they are losers in the game of life. But our social conscience does not allow us to let people die if we can prevent it. Not when they are out where we can see them. So we end up with our tug of war between the darwinists and the bleeding heart liberals. I think there is a lot of abuse of govt handouts.

I can see some social programs being worth the cost but not the runaway welfare state which is just getting worse every year. They penalize workers and coddle the lazy.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Predatory pricing by big businesses [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21786581 - 06/10/15 01:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Walmart is the result of sound economic policies.  Protectionism is not sound economic policy.  Neither is Luddism.  The Walmart whiners would have us smash windows to keep glaziers employed




The fact is simple. Most assholes that whine about Walmart end up shopping there. I've barely been to Walmart 20 times in my life. If I don't want to go I don't go. I consider it "bottom of barrel bargain bin." I don't like it. No one has to support these shit businesses if they don't want to.

They could buy canned food and send it to Africa. They could do anything. They shop there. I take a shit in Walmart. Then I leave. Why support the cheapest store? I'd rather go to Toys R Us


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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