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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Are the senses useful? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21752487 - 06/02/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Is it possible, however, that in discovering that equation, a principle was brought forth that is not tied to the senses? 




If it's possible how would it be possible?  Just because something is possible doesn't make it true.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Are the senses useful? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21752491 - 06/02/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
It most certainly does come through the senses, you can't read an instrument if you have no eyes, you can't measure anything if you have no eyes.  Everything comes through the senses.




Okay, without disagreeing with you, may I ask your opinion on how the Schrödinger equation is tied to the senses?



You have to have eyes to look at the math and write it down.  If you're blind you need to feel the equation with your fingers.  Senses are all we have.  I know this doesn't jive you're classical view of reality that it exists in super perfect natural order above our senses, but it's the truth.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Are the senses useful? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21752647 - 06/02/15 12:45 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I don't necessarily appreciate being pigeonholed like that -- incorrectly, I would add -- but, moving on.  Do you really think humans are so important that the universe couldn't go on without us?


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Re: Are the senses useful? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21752663 - 06/02/15 12:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Since we are a species of animal living on the planet and the universe has gone on after the extinction of all the previous species on the planet.  Yes it would go on with out us, I don't think the universe revolves around our existence.



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Re: Are the senses useful? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21752699 - 06/02/15 12:57 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Then why should our limited senses be considered so fundamental.  Look, I'm not arguing that empiricism isn't fabulously important.  It has a hand in wiring up everything in our brains.  But I think evolution, for example, has a major hand in our existence outside of the senses themselves.  There are other examples.  I just don't see why empiricism has to be the only explanation for our perceptions.  I feel other aspects of reality that are independent of the senses are in play as well.


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Re: Are the senses useful? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21752708 - 06/02/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I just don't see why empiricism has to be the only explanation for our perceptions.



I do, perceptions come from the data input from our senses.


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Re: Are the senses useful? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21756843 - 06/03/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I feel other aspects of reality that are independent of the senses are in play as well.




I'm sure lots of stuff is going on outside of what we can sense, but what concern is that of ours? If we cannot sense it (even indirectly), then how could it possibly be relevant to us? What could we possibly care about other than things that affect our consciousness.

There may be some interesting things that do not come to us via the senses, but they would still have to have some effect on consciousness. For example; perhaps some meditation masters have been able to experience pure consciousness, with minimal sensory input. What is bare consciousness like? Literally just consciousness, with zero sensory input and zero thoughts bouncing around... This question is actually pretty interesting, and, more importantly, it is answerable, there may be people alive today that have answered this question for themselves.

Assumption 1: You are identical to your consciousness.
Assumption 2: You can only be aware of what appears in your consciousness.
Assumption 3: To sense x, is to become aware of x.

Conclusion: For x to appear in consciousness, x must be sensed.

To be fair, I am using a pretty broad definition of 'sense' here. Some people may not consider recalling memories as 'sensing' something, however, memories are just old sense percepts. Hallucinations aren't memories or sense percepts, but as far as I am aware, they could not occur without something having been sensed at some point.

The only thing I am aware of that could be relevant to us that doesn't have anything to do with the senses, is the quality and structure of bare consciousness. However, this is just me thinking out loud, I am not super certain about this whole argument, as consciousness and awareness are still deep mysteries to us, with many questions left unanswered. I am open to new suggestions, I just can't currently think of anything that could get to our consciousness without having something to do with senses.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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