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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>the military is the best model of socialism out there, and theyre not gonna run out of money anytime soon.
You really believe that? The military is one of the most wasteful, corrupt, inefficient organizations there are. I suppose we are doing good in the middle east blowing up everything in sight?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*


Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
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Im not even gonna validate that with an argument.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Except where it already is feasible. 
Nowhere.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Except where it already is feasible. 
Nowhere.
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Bodhi of Ankou said: Thats impossible. Its simply a different distribution model of taxfunds. Not to mention the military is the best model of socialism out there, and theyre not gonna run out of money anytime soon. Shes another aristicratic goon keeping the interests of banks and the elite at the forefront of society. She holds no loyalty to the common man.
1. Military is not socialism, doof.
2. The government is borrowing money it doesn't have to pay for the military, so yeah they ran out od money a long time ago, doof.
3. The banks love socialists, socialists were the ones who made laws that allowed banks to get so bog, and socialists are the onea borrowing trillions of sollars from the banks to fund social programs.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: Shins]
#21779281 - 06/08/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shins is correct, bod has tossed in the towel.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Shins said: socialism isn't actually feasible.
Except where it already is feasible. 
Help me here, fal, show us where socialism works?
Here are some of the most socialist countries in the world:
◾Denmark ◾Finland ◾Netherlands ◾Canada ◾Sweden ◾Norway ◾Ireland ◾New Zealand ◾Belgium
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Stonehenge said: Yeah, since ss is fully funded there is a shining example of socialism being feasible. Oh wait, its funded with worthless iou's. Never mind.
Social security was never fully funded, nor was it ever set up to be that way; that's a myth. It gets funded each year by workers who are paying into it.
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Stonehenge said: Ok, lets look at the post office then, but its losing money every year.
It's only losing money because republicans are forcing it to prefund its future health care benefit payments to retirees for the next 75 years in a ten-year time span. That's a swell idea, but it can't be done.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: zorbman]
#21781322 - 06/08/15 11:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:

Shows how dumb she is. Money doesn't "run out". It gets circulated as it gets spent. The more circulation, the better the economy does.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Posts: 32,557
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Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: Shins]
#21781339 - 06/08/15 11:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: 1. Military is not socialism, doof.
News flash. The military is not a private enterprise. It belongs to the Government/people.
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Shins said: 2. The government is borrowing money it doesn't have to pay for the military, so yeah they ran out od money a long time ago, doof.
The Government is borrowing money because it's not collecting enough taxes to pay for everything, but it's still spending just fine.
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Shins said: 3. The banks love socialists, socialists were the ones who made laws that allowed banks to get so bog, and socialists are the onea borrowing trillions of sollars from the banks to fund social programs.
Please explain how socialism helped the banks. I'm pretty sure you're confusing socialism with cronyism.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Quote:
Shows how dumb she is. Money doesn't "run out".
Yes, that would be dumb. Notice she didn't say that. She said "other people's money" runs out. In other words, the economy eventually fails because government is redistributing wealth from the most productive parts of the economy to the least productive. Governments don't grow economies; the private sector does.
And as the government grows larger and larger, it consumes more and more of the productive capacity of the people until the economy eventually crashes under the weight of the debt created by socialism. That is where we are today. And that's about when you get a nice, big war.
Also, she inherited an economic basketcase and turned it around. I think most people would consider that to be pretty smart.
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It gets circulated as it gets spent. The more circulation, the better the economy does
Agreed. It's known as the Velocity of Money. Let's take a look at where it stands today. This is a chart of the VOM since the Great Depression.
Spot the trend..
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (06/09/15 07:22 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: zorbman]
#21783365 - 06/09/15 01:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Shows how dumb she is. Money doesn't "run out".
Yes, that would be dumb. Notice she didn't say that. She said "other people's money" runs out. In other words, the economy eventually fails because government is redistributing wealth from the most productive parts of the economy to the least productive. Governments don't grow economies; the private sector does.
"Other people's money" doesn't run out either. Do you think productive people are the only ones who spend money?
Money people get from Government goes right back into the economy when it is spent.
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zorbman said: And as the government grows larger and larger, it consumes more and more of the productive capacity of the people until the economy eventually crashes under the weight of the debt created by socialism.
Debt isn't created by socialism. It's created by not raising enough taxes to cover expenses. 
Reagan was the one who started increasing the national deficit because he preferred to give millionaires and billionaires huge tax breaks instead of balancing the budget.
And spending doesn't 'consume productive capacity'. It stimulates it.
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zorbman said: That is where we are today. And that's about when you get a nice, big war.
So now you're agreeing that Government spending is good for the economy???
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zorbman said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The more money in circulation, the better the economy does
Agreed. It's known as the Velocity of Money. Let's take a look at where it stands today. This is a chart of the VOM since the Great Depression.
Spot the trend..

The trend is Reagan fucked things up, and we've never recovered. 
Then W. Bush really fucked things up again. Those are the two places the graph really turns south.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Falcon velocity of money is not the only indicator of good economy. Random consumption and misallocated money hurts the economy. Proper allocation of money is done through a feee market based on supply and demand, simply spending money regardless of what matket demand is is not good for an economy. Why is this so hard for you phony keynsians to understand?
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: Shins]
#21783413 - 06/09/15 02:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: Falcon velocity of money is not the only indicator of good economy. Random consumption and misallocated money hurts the economy. Proper allocation of money is done through a feee market based on supply and demand, simply spending money regardless of what matket demand is is not good for an economy. Why is this so hard for you phony keynsians to understand?
Well said
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: Shins]
#21783444 - 06/09/15 02:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said: Falcon velocity of money is not the only indicator of good economy. Random consumption and misallocated money hurts the economy.
Agreed. Spending too much on the military rather than infrastructure is a massive misallocation of resources, and republicans are primarily to blame.
Quote:
Shins said: Proper allocation of money is done through a feee market based on supply and demand, simply spending money regardless of what matket demand is is not good for an economy. Why is this so hard for you phony keynsians to understand?
Because the real world has proven you wrong time and time again. See World War II as an example of how spending massive amounts of money helps an economy.
Keynesianism is what all the top colleges now teach. Empirical evidence doesn't lie.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>Agreed. Spending too much on the military rather than infrastructure is a massive misallocation of resources,
Obviously
> and republicans are primarily to blame.
Back on your dems are wonderful kick. In case you forgot, obumble has been pushing war since he started, last I heard he was a dem or did he switch? Dems voted for all the wars.
>See World War II as an example of how spending massive amounts of money helps an economy.
This is your evidence that throwing money around is always a good thing? We were under attack and could not avoid it. Earlier you were against spending money on the military, now you think its great, make up your mind.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Quote:
So now you're agreeing that Government spending is good for the economy???
You must have missed where I said earlier that governments take you to war when the economy turns down hard in order to deflect attention away from their failed policies. It has nothing to do with spending.
It's a myth that war spending is good for the economy. A popular one that has and will get a lot of people killed.
Quote:
See World War II as an example of how spending massive amounts of money helps an economy.
No, the U.S. economy recovered only after WWII because most of the countries in Europe -- where the war was waged -- were devastated, their factories and infrastructure destroyed, leaving the U.S. left standing as the world's sole superpower.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (06/09/15 05:43 PM)
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: zorbman]
#21784373 - 06/09/15 05:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just because colleges yeach keynsian economics does not mean that it is "evidence" it works. Are you really daft enough to presume that?
Spending money on infrastructure is not necessarily beneficial, what a retarded thing to say.
Let me spell this our for you clearly; not you nor all the college professors not john maynard keynes himself is smart enough or informed enough to dictate what proper spending is. You have what is called a "pretense of knowledge" you are arrogant enough to think you know what is best for eveyone, but you do not and never will. The free market has a thing called prices - in a free market prices are set organically and collectively in the market and they are -indicators- to where spending is benificial to an economy or not. You keynsian socialists completely ignore the market and go on with your phony pet projects, allthewhile distoring supply and demand and misallocating resources - wasting them and making it impossible for businesses to plan for the future reliably. You inflate asset bubbles which pop and cause depressions. How you could ever advocate such a broken and corrupt system puts your character into question.
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zorbman
blarrr



Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: War is inevitable! *DELETED* [Re: Shins]
#21784384 - 06/09/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by zorbman<p>Reason for deletion: ..
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: zorbman]
#21784391 - 06/09/15 05:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zorbman said: Are you replying to me?
No, fal.
reply fail.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: War is inevitable! [Re: Shins]
#21784449 - 06/09/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Fal is not all bad but he is a dedicated supporter of pc and failed liberal policies. Young fools in college naturally gravitate toward defunct political systems like socialism and communism. They will deny that and call it something else but that is what it is.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: See World War II as an example of how spending massive amounts of money helps an economy.
This is your evidence that throwing money around is always a good thing? We were under attack and could not avoid it. Earlier you were against spending money on the military, now you think its great, make up your mind.
I AM against military spending. The point was that massive Government spending has been proven to help the economy. Of course it helps even more if you direct that spending on things that not only benefit the people receiving the money, but on things that everyone else gets to benefit from as well, like highways, schools, public transportation, etc.
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Stonehenge said: Young fools in college naturally gravitate toward defunct political systems like socialism and communism. They will deny that and call it something else but that is what it is.
You go from saying intelligent things, to ridiculous things. College graduates do not gravitate towards socialism and communism, though perhaps they don't fear it as much as others. I'm a liberal capitalist no matter what you want to call me. I work in the Silicon Valley, which is one of the wealthiest places in the country, and which is also heavily liberal, with a highly educated population. Do you think the Silicon Valley wants socialism? No thanks, we're doing just fine with capitalism. Watch "Silicon Valley" on HBO if you want a peek into what life is like here. Granted, it's a comedy, but it has a tremendous amount of truth to it.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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