|
WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
|
Islamic Propaganda
#21738801 - 05/29/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------

Edited by WScott (05/31/15 03:27 PM)
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: WScott] 1
#21739163 - 05/29/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Sounds like a religious nutter. The reality is you're always going to have discrimination, no matter what. We live in reality, not an idealistic/naive dream.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
|
so the muslims in that clip worshipping together from all over the world were actually discriminating against each other?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: quinn]
#21741021 - 05/30/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
quinn said: so the muslims in that clip worshipping together from all over the world were actually discriminating against each other?
No, but there is the very real issue of what infidel means in Islam. Other 'People of the Book,' namely Jews and Christians are supposed to be respected in Islam. Clearly they are not. Two weeks after we returned from Abuja, Nigeria in 2001, 200 Christian Nigerians were butchered by radical Muslims with machetes. Jews in Israel are murdering Palestinian Muslims in the present. As of yesterday's news, some Christian militia nut in the US wants to recruit an Christian army to fight ISIL.
Shariah law is applied variously from one Muslim culture to another, but theoretically it could be as totalitarian as Nazism or Stalinist Russia. As it is Shiite and Sunni Muslims are at each other's throats, not to mention the way different cultures treat women. In Lebanon, women go about uncovered, while under the Taliban in Afghanistan, women had to wear that suffocating black birka or get stoned to death! Utopia cannot be the result of totalitarian suppression with threats of amputation or death by stoning. I saw some people praying on the streets in Lagos, Nigeria at the appointed times, but what if the world coming to a stop 5 times a day was enforced? That would be a Twilight Zone or Star Trekkian nightmare!
I agree with Cognitive_Shift. Only the rarest of human beings do not discriminate. We discriminate on virtually every duality imaginable, some types more than others. I mean, I don't discriminate Black vs. White so much because my wife is Black, but I prefer a beautiful Black woman over an ugly one! I prefer a college educated person over a high school drop-out, an introvert to an extravert, an intellectual over a jock. Everything else being equal, I prefer psychedelic-users over non-psychedelic users, but then again, I get along better with the educated psychedelicist than the non-educated psychedelicist because these biases build upon each other. There's no escaping it. We are what we are and we prefer others who are more similar to us than more different. When the novelty of difference wears off, we either share values or we do not. I have unfriended Facebook friends, or friends in real time, AND I've been unfriended in real life for political differences! Some differences are incredibly difficult to transcend.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: WScott]
#21741079 - 05/30/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Not to mention the curious coincidence that the geometries I see on mushrooms are riddled amidst the mosaics of mosques and Islamic temples.
Visionary states are probably universal, although the triggers for such states are varied. Islam admits use of cannabis and tobacco, but not alcohol. There is no world religion that officially sanctions the use of psychedelics. There may be tribal religions that do (e.g., Native American Church, Santo Daime), but psychedelics are for those of us who are not privy to spontaneous visionary experiences.
Pink Mosque
Nasir al-Molk Mosque
Church of Santa Maria, Mexico
Westminster Abbey, London

http://timewheel.net/Image-15-Mesmerizing-Mosque-Ceilings-That-Appear-To-Be-Influenced-By
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (06/10/15 04:45 PM)
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
|
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
quinn said: so the muslims in that clip worshipping together from all over the world were actually discriminating against each other?
No, but there is the very real issue of what infidel means in Islam. Other 'People of the Book,' namely Jews and Christians are supposed to be respected in Islam. Clearly they are not. Two weeks after we returned from Abuja, Nigeria in 2001, 200 Christian Nigerians were butchered by radical Muslims with machetes. Jews in Israel are murdering Palestinian Muslims in the present. As of yesterday's news, some Christian militia nut in the US wants to recruit an Christian army to fight ISIL.
Shariah law is applied variously from one Muslim culture to another, but theoretically it could be as totalitarian as Nazism or Stalinist Russia. As it is Shiite and Sunni Muslims are at each other's throats, not to mention the way different cultures treat women. In Lebanon, women go about uncovered, while under the Taliban in Afghanistan, women had to wear that suffocating black birka or get stoned to death! Utopia cannot be the result of totalitarian suppression with threats of amputation or death by stoning. I saw some people praying on the streets in Lagos, Nigeria at the appointed times, but what if the world coming to a stop 5 times a day was enforced? That would be a Twilight Zone or Star Trekkian nightmare!
it would be kinda cool actually i think 
CS made a strong claim about reality, the variation in human conduct described above only strengthens the idea that discrimination is not a given and that we could be doing much better than we are currently
Quote:
I agree with Cognitive_Shift. Only the rarest of human beings do not discriminate. We discriminate on virtually every duality imaginable, some types more than others. I mean, I don't discriminate Black vs. White so much because my wife is Black, but I prefer a beautiful Black woman over an ugly one! I prefer a college educated person over a high school drop-out, an introvert to an extravert, an intellectual over a jock. Everything else being equal, I prefer psychedelic-users over non-psychedelic users, but th en again, I get along better with the educated psychedelicist than the non-educated psychedelicist because these biases build upon each other. There's no escaping it. We are what we are and we prefer others who are more similar to us than more different. When the novelty of difference wears off, we either share values or we do not. I have unfriended Facebook friends, or friends in real time, AND I've been unfriended in real life for political differences! Some differences are incredibly difficult to transcend.
i dont think having certain tastes or preferences is discrimination . i would say it is when people are denied basic rights or opportunities afforded to others because of their ethnic background. or treated differently all things being equal because of their background. it has little to do with whether you like eachother..
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
Edited by quinn (05/30/15 05:54 PM)
|
secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss



Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 9 months, 6 days
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: WScott] 1
#21743866 - 05/31/15 05:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The philosophical introspection and reverence for the mysterious and unknowable that Islam may catalyze is no doubt capable of benefiting the sociological dynamic of our global culture and the psychological grounding of us as individuals.
Cherry picking one nice and potentially helpful characteristic of a religion is pointless and usually harmful. What about all of the awful characteristics or Islam? One of the main messages of the Qur'an is to hate, harm, fight and kill those who reject Allah; discrimination at full gallop. Yep, definitely sounds like "philosophical introspection and reverence for the mysterious" to me. Islam is inseparable from its core texts and doctrines. At the core of Islam is violence and discrimination against the unbelievers. As MarkostheGnostic pointed out: as long as an idea, or set of ideas is of a totalitarian nature, then cherry picking is not an option.
If "philosophical introspection and reverence for the mysterious and unknowable" is important and valuable to us, then why don't we just adopt these principles without the labels? Without paying homage to the iron age doctrines that include them? Why do we need to find good ideas from dogmas?
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
|
Quote:
secondorder said: Cherry picking one nice and potentially helpful characteristic of a religion is pointless and usually harmful. What about all of the awful characteristics or Islam? One of the main messages of the Qur'an is to hate, harm, fight and kill those who reject Allah; discrimination at full gallop.
can you provide reference for this pls? my understanding is the Qu'ran instructs only to fight and kill those who oppress and terrorise muslims.
also you are cherry picking just as much..
Quote:
Yep, definitely sounds like "philosophical introspection and reverence for the mysterious" to me. Islam is inseparable from its core texts and doctrines. At the core of Islam is violence and discrimination against the unbelievers. As MarkostheGnostic pointed out: as long as an idea, or set of ideas is of a totalitarian nature, then cherry picking is not an option.
idk man..
1. i have doubts that an ancient doctrine can really 'contain totalitarianism'. 2. really shitty corrupt governments and dictatorships in the middle east have come about primarily not through islam but foreign interest and interference..
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: quinn] 1
#21744396 - 05/31/15 10:53 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
. really shitty corrupt governments and dictatorships in the middle east have come about primarily not through islam but foreign interest and interference..
Those dictatorships insured more civil rights than popular muslim rule does now. Islam is garbage and that is why Islamic society is garbage. Your excuses for their terrible behaviour are baseless and steeped in white guilt.
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: DieCommie]
#21744457 - 05/31/15 11:15 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
which popular muslim rule are you referring to?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: quinn] 1
#21744475 - 05/31/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
From Islamic State to Indonesia. Iran, Pakistan, Libya, Egypt, etc. Their societies are a reflection of their values.
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: DieCommie]
#21744624 - 05/31/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
well basically you have lumped a whole lot of unrelated countries together and said they all reflect the same islamic values which is rubbish as within them not even the same schools of islam are followed, let alone the role islam plays in actually guiding the hand of the government
fact is most of those countries are desperately third world and have real issues like poverty, terrorism, corruption, instability and war which i wouldnt say reflects islam but reflects being third world. particularly when there is a huge discrepency of power around due to natural resources and external interest... they also have of nuanced issues as well like ethnic minorities, tribalism, harsh geography etc
the assasination of the first democratically elected muslim PM of iran and replacement with a brutal sahah, and the privatisation of the egyptian government which led to corruption and crony capitalism which has turned into the mess it is today, is directly related to america.
idk about indonesia either, they seem kinda interesting multicultural from what i have heard...
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
Edited by quinn (05/31/15 12:35 PM)
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: quinn]
#21744936 - 05/31/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
i dont think having certain tastes or preferences is discrimination . i would say it is when people are denied basic rights or opportunities afforded to others because of their ethnic background. or treated differently all things being equal because of their background. it has little to do with whether you like eachother..
You're simply using the word with an alternate meaning. When Buddhists speak of the Five Dhyani Buddhas, the Discriminating Wisdom associated with Amitabha, for example, doesn't mean social discrimination. On another level, preference DOES mean discrimination, but the levels can be hierarchically valued. For example, I have a blonde fetish, but I have chosen to marginalize such things or else I would never have married my wife who is not blonde, or even White. In this case I choose to think that Manjushri's sword of Discriminating Wisdom cleaved off the psychic barnacle of 'blonde fetish' that might otherwise have obscured a higher value that transcends such superficial thinking. But when I was a young man, I would definitely experience 'discrimination' against non-blonde-haired women, whom I chose not to pursue. That was a kind of psychosexual discrimination. I still have such 'discriminations' in my aesthetics of women, but since I'm married, they are mere psychic artifacts and do not have any meaningful effect on my life. I certainly do not demonstrate any lack of manners towards people based on their appearance. I mean, I hold doors open for anyone.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: quinn]
#21745027 - 05/31/15 02:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
can you provide reference for this pls? my understanding is the Qu'ran instructs only to fight and kill those who oppress and terrorise muslims.
Really?? Where did you achieve this (lack of) understanding of the Quran?
It takes all of two minutes to find the information you requested...
“When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Quran 9:5
“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Quran 9:73
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123
“Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51
“He that chooses a religion over Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be one of the lost.” Quran 3:85
“Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does this has nothing to hope for from Good – except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return.” Quran 3:28
“Garments of fire have been prepared for the unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with rods of iron.
“Whenever, in their anguish, they try to escape from Hell, back they shall be dragged, and will be told: ‘Taste the torment of the Conflagration!'” Quran 22:19-20
“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Quran 48:29
“Those that deny Our revelations We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise.” Quran 4:56
“Believers, know that the idolaters [non-Muslims] are unclean. Let them not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year is ended.” Quran 9:28
“The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Bible] and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.” Quran 98:6
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: DieCommie]
#21745085 - 05/31/15 03:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Islam is garbage and that is why Islamic society is garbage.
This statement is based on limited understanding, as is all bigotry. It is similar to the ignorance of G.W. Bush who believed that every culture wants America's version of democracy, at least the version that's written down on the parchment of the Constitution of the United States of America. There are many Islamic cultures. There are many Christian cultures too. One may as well learn to consider different Earth cultures as one might speculatively consider cultures from other planets should their alleged presence on Earth be revealed. Culturally, I support the freedom of speech that allows people to make uncritical judgements about a world religion that includes over a billion human members. But I certain do not support bigotry, especially when a bigoted thought arises in my own mind! We're all subject to uncritical half-baked thoughts, it's just easier to see them demonstrated by others.
When religious belief determines social policies, whether Islamic shariah laws or the abhorrent caste system in India, or morally retarded American fundamentalist Christians, it is a failure to separate the wheat from the chaff. People in power try to maintain the status quo because they derive power and privilege from it, just as non-progressive politicians do in the USA. It is not because the USA is a Christian nation, we aren't. The Founding Fathers were Deists if they were anything, not Christians, and Christians do not become politicians, if you go back to what the New Testament teaches about spiritual life. Most Gentile Americans will say they are Christian (unless they proclaim that they're secularists, humanists, atheists, or Pagans), but that identity is a 'mere veneer' when push comes to shove. Because there are a lot more people professing to be Christians, one might say that American society is garbage - with the whole misunderstood and exploited notion of having "dominion" over the Earth from the Book of Genesis contributing to our diseased society.
Garbage is cigarette butts by the trillions, fast food wrappers, plastic bags and bottles on land and in water. Compared to other nationalities, Americans with their rampant consumerism are filthy pigs. I've ceased identifying myself to others as a Christian because fundamentalist fucktard is the first association. I was recognized as American in Germany and England just by how I carry myself, without even uttering a word, and unfortunately I too was probably thought to be a garbage-spewing American slob. I know your use of the word "garbage" was not literal, but mine was. America produces a LOT of garbage and that consumerist discarding dynamic colors its culture, art, aesthetics, and regard for plant, animal and human life. The houses on either side of me both have had a discarded toilet sitting outside for months. The house across the street has had a large obsolete TV set sitting next to the garbage bin for weeks. Decent houses, trashy inhabitants, garbage culture.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
|
|
Islam means submission... to the human overlords hiding behind a caricature of a god. Fuck that garbage.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: Rahz] 1
#21745762 - 05/31/15 06:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said: Islam means submission... to the human overlords hiding behind a caricature of a god. Fuck that garbage.
Well you can fuck whatever you choose. As for 'submission," it refers to the ego submitting to God. That is the crux of every world religion and esoteric discipline. You probably can't see the forest for the trees. The word religion comes from the Latin word 'ligare' which means 'to bind' (hence the English word ligature). Essentially, religion has the same meaning as the word 'yoga' which means 'yoke,' as in the sense of being yoked to God. Whatever your personal issues are with authority, that is not the essential meaning and purpose of religion, that is a consequence of human beings appropriating religion for oppressive political purposes.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
|
|
Let's not broaden the subject matter. Both Islam and Christianity are based on hierarchical control structures. The major figures in those religions profess to having a special relationship with a sentient creator God, and claim the right to pass down said God's wishes and desires.
My guess is they are just passing down their own wishes and desires. Bunch of liars and/or delusionals. So yea, fuck them, as a figure of speech of course. Perhaps my crude words cheapen the philosophy, but that's all the topic is worth. Treating madness with dignity is foolish unless one is purposefully being dishonest.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (05/31/15 07:19 PM)
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Islamic Propoganda [Re: Rahz] 1
#21746084 - 05/31/15 08:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I reject your reductionistic, psychologisms. They reveal a lack of understanding about the nature of myth, the archetypal psyche (Collective Unconscious), and human beings as Homo religiosus. I have spent the last 40 years living "the symbolic life," and appreciate, no, revere, religious art and philosophies from the present to the pre-Socratics in Greece, the Vedic philosophers of India, ancient Egypt, and the Hebrews, to name the most influential. If you have not yet discerned what is unlikely to be historical, but mythological, magickal, metaphorical, midrashic, or metaphysical, then it's clear that you don't have any interest in mining the gems of wisdom from the dross of your truncated world-view. It's easy to throw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater, but I'll be the one who discerns the irrational from the transrational, the sick from the sacred. And, btw, I DO treat madness with dignity, literally, as a long-time psychotherapist, and a more honest man than myself you'd be hard pressed to find.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
|
|
I have spent a great deal of time dealing with the subject of myth and non-literal translation. You are suggesting that is what Islam is about? Aren't you a gnostic? How do you think 99% of the Christian world feel about your views? In different times, they would put you on a stick.
You can ooh and ahh at their pretty works, but I'm pretty sure you would still be persecuted unless you submit in a way that satisfies their desires. You will forever be an outsider peering through the window of the club house, hoping not to get caught.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
|