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OfflineLearyfanS
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The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues
    #2173645 - 12/12/03 10:18 PM (18 years, 16 hours ago)

Two parties control our country, the Republicans and Democrats(as far as we know). Both of these parties have an interest in making the drug war seem like a non-issue. It's worked very well.

What it is is one of the biggest, if not, THE biggest issue in politics. They're imprisoning and harrassing a whole group of people, a whole culture. Imagine if they threw all black people in prison simply for being in possession of black skin. Imagine the outrage that would cause. Here, you have a group of people who aren't nessesarily connected by skin color or religion or anything the public mind can grab onto.

Would you vote for a politician who supported locking up non-violent homosexual Americans? Then why do you vote for politicians who support locking up drug using Americans?




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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



Edited by Learyfan (12/12/03 10:25 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2173667 - 12/12/03 10:34 PM (18 years, 16 hours ago)

:thumbup:

The war against drug users is a just war.  As a socialist I am sure we have to do what is best for society and not for the individual.  Drugs kill people, decrease productivity, and ruin many people's lives.

All drugs should be illegal from the socialist's point of view.

And yes, I would vote for a politician who locked up gays.  They caused AIDS from the gerbils they put up their butts.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2173697 - 12/12/03 11:04 PM (18 years, 16 hours ago)

Hee hee hee.

Can't argue with that.

pinky


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InvisibleOctopusDr
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2173728 - 12/12/03 11:21 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago)

Yes, in a sense, certain drugs (psychedelics, mood relaxors(pot)) are a helpful part of life for some people. Its the way they live. Similar to religious practices.

The thing that really gets me though is how my music is threatened by the government just because people enjoy to listen to it while they're on "drugs."


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OfflineDreamer987
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2173738 - 12/12/03 11:25 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago)

your joking, right. please tell me your joking


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Dreamer987]
    #2173751 - 12/12/03 11:33 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago)

Yeah, he's joking. You see the thumbs up sign(in reference to my post) and then he makes statements which are in direct contrast with mine(which he gave the thumbs up sign to), so that's how you know.

Bet you $5 (not really though)




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OfflinePhred
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2173769 - 12/12/03 11:49 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago)

He's only joking if he's not a socialist. His position is consistent with socialist philosophy, therefore if he is in fact a socialist he is not joking.

pinky


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2173791 - 12/13/03 12:16 AM (18 years, 14 hours ago)

A man named "Mr. Mushrooms" can't believe that all drugs should be illegal. And he made the gerbil statement, which was definitely a joke but was written as if it was in the same tone of voice as the rest of the statement.

I guess we'll never know.




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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2173817 - 12/13/03 12:33 AM (18 years, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
He's only joking if he's not a socialist. His position is consistent with socialist philosophy, therefore if he is in fact a socialist he is not joking.

pinky



Explain how his position is consistent with socialist philosophy.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2173819 - 12/13/03 12:34 AM (18 years, 14 hours ago)

Cool,you can lump all socialists into a neat little pile if you want,but then all you neo cons are greedy bastards who would slit their own mother's throat for a dollar (never mind,selling your mother into slavery would be more profititable).

It's funny how the more socialist countries tend to have the most liberal drug policies.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: monoamine]
    #2173858 - 12/13/03 12:59 AM (18 years, 14 hours ago)


Quote:

It's funny how the more socialist countries tend to have the most liberal drug policies



maybe thats because countries that decriminalize drugs tend to quickly become a haven for migratory socialist hippies?


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'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


Edited by DoctorJ (12/13/03 01:01 AM)


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2173919 - 12/13/03 01:37 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

I would say that getting the special intrest and corp money out of politics and re-instilling honesty back into the system is more important. Given those I think that realistic drug policy would follow. The drug policy in the US is a symtom not a cause IMO. Fix the cause and the symtom will disapear.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: monoamine]
    #2173940 - 12/13/03 01:48 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

monoamine writes:

Cool,you can lump all socialists into a neat little pile if you want...

I said Mr Mushrooms argument was consistent with socialist philosophy. It is.

I didn't lump all socialists into any pile. Many people who consider themselves socialists have never thought through the philosophical implications of socialism.

but then all you neo cons are greedy bastards who would slit their own mother's throat for a dollar (never mind,selling your mother into slavery would be more profititable).

I strongly suggest you read the forum rules at the top of the first page, and remember that enimatpyrt was recently banned for violating these rules. It pains me to have to rebuke a fellow moderator.

a) I am not a neo-con
b) I have repeatedly stated here my contention that the prime rule of human interaction is the forbidding of the initiation of force. Therefore to claim I would slit my mother's throat is an outright flame. Apologize please.
c) I have repeatedly stated here my contention that the prime rule of human interaction is the forbidding of the initiation of force. Therefore to claim I would sell my mother into slavery is an outright flame. Apologize please.

Hysteria has no place in reasoned debate. Your comments demean you.

It's funny how the more socialist countries tend to have the most liberal drug policies.

Like the ex-USSR? Red China? Cuba? Sweden?

Do some research and get back to us. You'll be particularly surprised at just how un-liberal Sweden's drug policy is.

pinky


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2173944 - 12/13/03 01:51 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

I agree with you wholeheartedly.




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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



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OfflinePhred
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: silversoul7]
    #2173945 - 12/13/03 01:52 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Explain how his position is consistent with socialist philosophy.

I suspect Mr Mushrooms will be back to expand. I wouldn't want to spoil his fun. If he hasn't done so in a day or two, bump this thread and I'll give it a go.

You might want to re-examine his original statements, though, and examine the implications.

pinky


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Offlinepattern
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2173950 - 12/13/03 01:56 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

Learyfan I agree 100% with you on this!!! Good points man!

Anyone wanna take a guess, how long will the War on Drugs last? Or is having legalization/decrim like some fairy-tale to Americans, like Santa Claus? The WOD has ended, is ending, or has not even existed in alot of the world. It's impossible for the Americans to win this one.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2173954 - 12/13/03 01:59 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

Better yet, why not start a new thread?





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OfflinePhred
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: pattern]
    #2173960 - 12/13/03 02:04 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

pattern writes:

he WOD has ended, is ending, or has not even existed in alot of the world.

A lot of the world? What is your definition of a "lot" of the world? By number of countries? By population? By area of landmass?

Even if by WOD you refer strictly to marijuana, I would like to see you list a lot of countries meeting any of those three criteria.

When you refer to the WOD, though, you refer to all illicit drugs. In this case, I would like to see you list even ONE such country.

Before you get all huffy, realize that I too am in favor of legalizing all drugs. I just want you to back up your bogus assertion.

pinky


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: pattern]
    #2173961 - 12/13/03 02:05 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

Thanks.

It's hard to guess how long it will last. Something incredible will have to happen for the WOD to go away.

It's a lucritive business. The product is, making you believe your little Suzy will be safer because of the DEA agents kicking down doors.




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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



Edited by Learyfan (12/13/03 02:06 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2173962 - 12/13/03 02:06 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

Mr Mushrooms is of course free to do that if he so chooses.

pinky


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2173964 - 12/13/03 02:07 AM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly.







And not only drug policy but a whole shitload of things would change don't ya think? Forien policy, domestic policies. corp. laws, shit everything.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2174013 - 12/13/03 02:43 AM (18 years, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
pattern writes:

he WOD has ended, is ending, or has not even existed in alot of the world.

A lot of the world? What is your definition of a "lot" of the world? By number of countries? By population? By area of landmass?

Even if by WOD you refer strictly to marijuana, I would like to see you list a lot of countries meeting any of those three criteria.

When you refer to the WOD, though, you refer to all illicit drugs. In this case, I would like to see you list even ONE such country.

Before you get all huffy, realize that I too am in favor of legalizing all drugs. I just want you to back up your bogus assertion.

pinky




How about you prove that the War on Drugs is in full force all over the world?  :lol:

Then you can attack my position with some evidence.  Otherwise, your opinion has no weight over mine.  :rolleyes:

To clarify, by "lot", I mean: a not insignificant portion.


Edited by pattern (12/13/03 02:45 AM)


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: pattern]
    #2174079 - 12/13/03 03:35 AM (18 years, 11 hours ago)

In my home town, a few years ago the Dea was doing a house raid...And they had the wrong house. This guy hears people breaking into his house, so he grabs his pistol and goes to see what is up. The Dea agents (storm troopers of death) shoot him dead in his own house.

HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT? ARE YOU NOT ENRAGED?


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InvisibleObserver
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2174154 - 12/13/03 04:59 AM (18 years, 10 hours ago)

I thought this might be relevant to this thread...


Source: Rocky Mountain News ?

A man caught in the clash of state versus federal drug laws told News 4's Brian Maass that he couldn't believe federal agents raided his home for three marijuana plants he'd grown for medicinal use.

Donald Nord, 57, has a state permit to use marijuana to relieve chronic pain from cancer and diabetes. Federal agents, acting on information that Nord was growing marijuana, got a search warrant and found three plants and growing equipment.
The agents confiscated it, and Nord was given a ticket to appear in county court in November.

The case was thrown out and, on Monday, the county judge ordered the Drug Enforcement Administration to return the plants and the equipment. The DEA says it won't give them back willingly.

"I don't understand why the state says I can but the federal government says I can't," Nord told News 4.

State law allows medicinal users, with the recommendation of a doctor, to go into a registry of those permitted to smoke, grow or otherwise acquire marijuana. Federal law prohibits all possession of marijuana.

The judge gave the DEA 21 days to return Nord's property.

Jeff Dorschner, spokesman for the Colorado U.S. attorney's office, said staff will review the county judge's order for the return of the marijuana.

Source: Denver Rocky Mountain News (CO)
Published: December 11, 2003
Copyright: 2003 Denver Publishing Co.
Contact: letters@denver-rmn.com
Website: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Observer]
    #2174189 - 12/13/03 05:39 AM (18 years, 9 hours ago)

You know what is fuct about that? The search warrent was issued from a state court and local agents conducted the search. The seized proporty should have been the property of the state not the feds. Not to mention that the state should not have issued the warrent in the first place.


http://www.mpp.org/CO/news_5731.html

Judge: Return Marijuana
The Steamboat Pilot; December 9, 2003
by Susan Bacon

A Hayden resident who uses marijuana for medicinal purposes should have growing equipment and 2 ounces of the drug that were seized in a search returned to him, a county judge ruled Monday.

The decision, which had to account for conflicting state and federal drug laws, may set an important precedent, Routt County Judge James Garrecht said.

"Obviously, this case has the potential of going a whole lot further than just this court," Garrecht said after giving his decision. "This may be a precedent-setting case a whole lot further down the road."

Several ounces of usable marijuana, three marijuana plants and growing equipment were taken during a GRAMNET search of 57-year-old Don Nord's home in mid-October. GRAMNET, the Grand, Routt and Moffat Narcotics Enforcement Team, is a federal task force made up of local officers.

Deputy District Attorney Marc Guerette, who represented GRAMNET, had no comment on the judge's decision and said he wasn't sure whether he would pursue an appeal, which would go to District Court if it was filed.

During the hearing, Nord's attorney, Kristopher Hammond, argued that because the search warrant was served through a state court and charges were dismissed through the state court, the officers should follow state law and return the property.

Garrecht then asked Hammond to clarify the state and federal laws, which he did.

Under a Colorado law that voters approved in 2000, people suffering from debilitating medical conditions, such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, glaucoma, and chronic severe pain, are allowed to grow and smoke marijuana. Colorado is one of eight states that allows medicinal marijuana use.

Nord, who has battled kidney cancer, diabetes, a lung disease, and other illnesses, is listed with the state's Medical Marijuana Registry program.

But according to federal laws, none of that matters; marijuana is an illegal drug for everyone.

Hammond also directed the judge's attention to part of the state law that says that property seized from someone registered to use medicinal marijuana should not be harmed or neglected and should be returned.

"All of a sudden, this marijuana they seized under a state order now becomes federal property," Hammond said. "My suspicion, judge, is they're just trying to do an end run around this case."

After the search, Nord was issued a citation for the possession of between 1 and 8 ounces of marijuana and possession of drug paraphernalia. Those charges were dismissed, Garrecht said, because the citation was filed late.

Garrecht asked why those charges were filed in a county court, and Guerette replied that he was not sure, but that it didn't matter because the marijuana and growing equipment are now federal property. He also said that it was clear that GRAMNET officers operated under federal laws.

Hammond cited an Oregon Court of Appeals decision in which marijuana was seized from a man who was allowed to use it for medicinal purposes. Federal officers argued it would violate federal law to return the drug, but a local court said the drug should be returned, a decision which was upheld by the appeals court.

Guerette said the Oregon court's decisions were not binding for this county, but Garrecht said that because neither lawyer was aware of a similar case for Colorado, the Oregon case offered some important precedent, which he used in making his decision.

Garrecht then ordered that the seized property be returned. Hammond said that the marijuana plants were uprooted so they probably had died, and Garrecht responded that those would not be returned.

Two ounces of usable marijuana, along with containers, a 1,000-watt bulb, pipes, a scale, rolling papers and several other items were ordered to be returned within 21 days. Some of those items, Guerette said during court, had been shipped to a federal lab in San Francisco.

Before the hearing ended, Hammond said, "Your honor, my client just asked me if he can grow marijuana again."

Garrecht replied that he did not give out legal advice.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2174294 - 12/13/03 08:23 AM (18 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
silversoul7 writes:

Explain how his position is consistent with socialist philosophy.

I suspect Mr Mushrooms will be back to expand. I wouldn't want to spoil his fun. If he hasn't done so in a day or two, bump this thread and I'll give it a go.

You might want to re-examine his original statements, though, and examine the implications.

pinky




Thank you Pink.

Yes, I was joking. The socialist position maintains the rights of the collective supersede the rights of the individual. That position could also be called the egalitarian position. The opposite position is libertarian which favors the rights of the individual over the rights of the collective. Many laws lean in favor of one position or the other.

Every country is a blend of the two positions. And it is possible that persons can also be a blend of those positions. But when they do so they can make value judgments that are inconsistent, likewise with countries.

I am currently reading a book that examines justice in juxtaposition with both philosophies. Its premise is that justice requires a balance between the two philosophies. It maintains that egalitarianism which strips people of too many individual rights tramples justice and that libertarianism which strips individuals of their natural rights does the same.

I find the argument interesting but not wholly convincing. I favor the individual over the collective, as does Pink if I read him correctly.

The argument starts with the premise that we are are endowed with certain natural rights given to us by virtue of birth and our intrinsic nature.

Two examples of these rights are the ability to defend ourselves, i.e. self-defense, and the right to life which implies sustenance in the form of food and other things that promote health.

Some people are in favor of denying people the right to protect themselves with guns, self-defense, while agreeing that the collective can obtain money from individuals by force in order to supply everyone in the collective with sustenance. Other people are in favor of denying people the right to put substances in their bodies but are in favor of using guns for self-protection, self-defense.

Which is more important and in accordance with our natural rights, self-defense or chemicals that alter our consciousness?

I think the answer is fairly obvious.

Which is more important and in accordance with our natural rights, sustenance or our freedom from collective coercion?

For me, that answer isn't obvious.

This is because I lean towards the libertarian position. I favor self-defense in the form of ownership and usage of guns to protect myself and my family. I favor the individuals right to consume, in any fashion, plants, chemicals or any other substance in order to alter their consciousness. I favor the rights of the individual to be free from coercion with respect to their personal property which includes money over that of the collective to supply the members of the collective with sustenance.

Those that aren't familiar with me wouldn't necessarily know I was joking. But I thought the gerbil 'defense' would have made that fairly obvious. Gerbils in butts are not the cause of AIDS.

Cheers,

MM


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174316 - 12/13/03 08:54 AM (18 years, 6 hours ago)

Nice.

Now back to the issue of the War On Drugs being one of the BIGGEST issues in the world of politics.





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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2174344 - 12/13/03 09:52 AM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Biggest?

Biggest as in how? How is this issue greater than the right to defend one's self? Or the supposed right to sustenance?

If you are saying that it is an egregious offense for a nation to imprison those who have used substances I agree with you. But if you are saying that is more egregious than the collective attempting to take away one's right to defend one's self I disagree.

Which is more important, the right to self-defense or the right to consume recreatinoal drugs? The first one is life itself. The second one doesn't deal with life or death.


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OfflineGranola
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2174352 - 12/13/03 10:08 AM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
In my home town, a few years ago the Dea was doing a house raid...And they had the wrong house. This guy hears people breaking into his house, so he grabs his pistol and goes to see what is up. The Dea agents (storm troopers of death) shoot him dead in his own house.

HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT? ARE YOU NOT ENRAGED?




happens every day.


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OfflineGranola
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Observer]
    #2174356 - 12/13/03 10:10 AM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Observer said:
The judge gave the DEA 21 days to return Nord's property.





and what happens if they dont, will the bailiff whack the DEA's pee pee


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174357 - 12/13/03 10:12 AM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

it is an egregious offense for a nation to imprison those who have used substances




^^^^
I'm saying come election time, this should be one of the biggest issues on people's minds.







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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2174366 - 12/13/03 10:25 AM (18 years, 4 hours ago)

I agree that is an important issue.  But I only agree provisionally because other issues are more important.  Issues that deal with a person's life directly like self-defense or the right to protect one's self are more important.

The collective in the United States has decided that the use of illicit drugs is bad for the State because it is bad for individuals and others that reside in the State.  If you are a socialist, and you are, I don't see how you can defend your position without being inconsistent.

You would take away my guns and deny me the right to defend myself and my family from dangerous criminals who would kill us.  You would take my money to give to others who can't provide for themselves. 

But you would give me  :spliff: to enjoy myself?

It sounds to me like you would have me be a happy slave to the collective.

No thanks.

I'd rather be free.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2174386 - 12/13/03 10:51 AM (18 years, 4 hours ago)

To summarize what I have said let me put it another way.

I will defend myself rather than dial 911 and hope someone arrives in time to save me from the home invader who has a gun pointed at me.

I will keep as much of my money from the State as I can and I would rather die than live off stolen goods.

I will use whatever drugs I see fit in order to enjoy myself.

In all cases it is my body and myself that I prefer over the dictates of the collective.

The collective doesn't have to right to steal my money,strip me of my right to protect myself, or tell me what kind of substances I can use.

I decide those things.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174389 - 12/13/03 10:54 AM (18 years, 4 hours ago)

Who said I would take your guns away?

Non-violent citizens should be able to have guns and drugs if they like.




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OfflineGranola
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174398 - 12/13/03 11:01 AM (18 years, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
To summarize what I have said let me put it another way.

I will defend myself rather than dial 911 and hope someone arrives in time to save me from the home invader who has a gun pointed at me.





I know someone that tried to prevent a killing by caling 911, the cops said there was no crime committed yet and they couldnt do anything until there was. do you think the police would respond to a home invasion?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2174424 - 12/13/03 11:18 AM (18 years, 3 hours ago)

[note: i had originally posted this response as a separate thread..which failed to attract much interest..so i moved it here...anyway..this is the real reason for the war on drugs...]

i know this sounds crazy..but what if there really is a valid reason for neocon thuggery??...which is..of course..not to say that the Bush junta is actually telling the truth...

but there is..however..this tiny matter of depreciation..caused by the lack of a hard currency..meaning that the value of a dollar is determined by the total value of existing goods and services under US sovreignty...for example..if i spend $x on a pack of cigarettes..then that $x is only worth that much until i smoke the cigarettes..after which it loses all its value..and becomes $x worth of inflation..for which american workers must add that much more hours in order to compensate...that is what is meant by a depreciational cost...the value of fiat money depends on what its spent on...

OTOH..under the old system..i could swap the pack of cigarettes for an ounce of silver..which would still be worth an ounce of silver even after the cigarettes are gone...(one ounce is admittedly a bit steep in most locales..but im using it as an example)..there are no depreciational costs with hard currency...and its value does not depend on how its spent...

the example with the cigarettes..also holds true for marijuana, mushrooms..and other drugs..alcohol..and for food..fuel..and military munitions..or any other consumable good..too...in the case of food..and to a lesser extent fuel..some or all of the depreciational cost can be recovered as production..and with munitions..as land resources (if you win the war)...but without hard currency..drugs..alcohol..and tobacco..are necessarily entirely depreciational spending...and from my own experience as a drug user..i tend to incur even more non-drug-related depreciational costs when im on drugs...

one point worth mentioning..is that as the state accelerates its anti-drug efforts..this drives the price of the drugs higher..which in turn makes drug use even more inflationary..which of course necessitates further increases in power..this is an example of what the far right calls "self-sustaining growth"..a race to the bottom...

and so in order to maintain the value of fiat currency..the state must use all availible means to curtail depreciational spending...this means keeping money out of the hands of the ppl in the first place..so that they cannot indulge in inflationary spending..and concentrating wealth into the hands of an ascendant financial oligarchy..again to prevent its depreciation...the state..acting at the behest of the FO..has the power to authourise certain inflationary spending (alcohol and tobacco) and deal most harshly with unauthourised inflationary spending...

at the present moment..the dollar is under pressure from the euro..and various other foreign currencies..and the junta's imperialist warmongering will push even more inflation..in the short term if successful..in the long term if not...and aside from oil and pure spite..one of the reasons for this warmongering..is to thwart a catastrophic sell-off of the dollar in favour of the euro...as such we can expect much more repression and agressive action from the junta so long as this pressure continues...

the bottom line is that fiat currency requires fascism to back it up...nixon knew this when he killed the gold standard..and he did it precisely for that reason...i dont have to back that claim up..why do you think they called him "dick"??...it has been said that fiat currencies always eventually collapse...i see two possible futures for the collapse of the dollar: 1) the rest of the world realizes their fucked either way..and dumps all their nukes on us before the junta's missile "shield" (yes..armour can be an offensive weapon in cases like this) is in place..or 2) the world bows to the junta's will..resulting in a long-term systematized mass killing operation..like hitler and stalin on a global scale...

one obvious solution would be to revert back to hard currency...but this is only a necessary condition for civil society to exist..not sufficient in itself..if the FO and the junta would ever allow it...whats even worse..is there might not be enough gold and silver in the world to sustain a global economy..in which case the restoration of hard currency also requires one of the two options above...

and that..in a nutshell..is what i believe to be the real reason for neo-fascist ascendancy in the US..a direct result of which is the war on drugs...

BTW...if it were my choice..i would choose the nukes...i have seen the alternative..when i visited the remains of auschwitz on a recent trip to europe...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2174538 - 12/13/03 12:41 PM (18 years, 2 hours ago)

i just wrote a speach on the drug war, and i thnk you all should hear some of the facts

because of the drug war there have been over 220,000 hiv infections because of the illegality and un-avaliability of clean needles, this represents 1/3 of all aids cases, over half of these people have died

there are 10 preventable hiv cases each and every day.

many politicians have stated that they see hiv and aids as an effective deterant to using drugs.

every 20 seconds someone is arrested for a drug crime

the federal spending for the war on drugs 17 mil a year, is equal to the money spent on the entire food stamp program.

federally and locally the spending is 37 mil a year and grwoing.

this is a link to a site, the site is a memorial for all of those that have been gunned down and blown out of the sky by mistake during the drug war.
through taxes each and everyone of us ownes a part of the bullet that killed these people. their blood is on our hands
http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/08/17/drugWarVictims.html


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PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2174545 - 12/13/03 12:50 PM (18 years, 2 hours ago)

i dont doubt any of what you say at all...my point was merely that the purpose behind all of it is to control inflationary spending...

EDIT: the expenditures that you mentioned..are in the minds of the junta..outweighed by the savings in inflationary costs...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (12/13/03 02:16 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174595 - 12/13/03 01:42 PM (18 years, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Biggest?

Biggest as in how? How is this issue greater than the right to defend one's self? Or the supposed right to sustenance?

If you are saying that it is an egregious offense for a nation to imprison those who have used substances I agree with you. But if you are saying that is more egregious than the collective attempting to take away one's right to defend one's self I disagree.






Well, let me just make this point: you take guns or money out of the people's hands, you have weakened their resources, their ability to live, and defend themselves against criminals and crooked governments.

You take drugs away from people and its going a step further- you're not just removing their physical resources- you're removing their mental, emotional, and spiritual resources.

Take away my guns, and you take away my physical ability to rebel. Take away my drugs- you're greatly lessening the possibility that i will even think to rebel. You're stoping the revolution where it starts- in the synapses of each individual member of the populace.

anyway, I just think that there is a line that should be drawn. Taxes, gun control- these are things designed to control my external physical environment. Prohibition is much more personal- it is designed to control my mental environment. Afterall, ownership of material things is subjective. But no one can truly say that they own my body, mind, and spirit except me. But with prohibition, they are trying to control that which is more sacred than any earthly possession- my God-given body and brain.

That being said, prohibition is a much more important issue to me than taxes or gun control (niether of which I am too fond of, BTW).

Take my guns. Take my money. I wont give them up without a fight, but they are not what is truly important to me. The mind of the individual is the the final political battleground- and money and guns dont mean shit in that place.

What good are guns and money in the hands of those who have no control over their minds?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2174597 - 12/13/03 01:42 PM (18 years, 1 hour ago)

nice post.

well, except the bit about the mass killing, i kind of lost you at that point.


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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174653 - 12/13/03 02:19 PM (18 years, 56 minutes ago)

what i meant by that was that a catastrophic collapse of the fiat dollar is inevitable at some point..and that it could take two forms..those being a nuclear war vs. some kind of terroristic global fascism...the latter scenario is the "systematized mass killing operation"...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2174749 - 12/13/03 03:07 PM (18 years, 7 minutes ago)

Honestly, I think that if everyone grew their own herb, shrooms and produce their own ethanol, we could just say 'fuck the drug laws'. Don't get caught, best advice I Can give.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2175330 - 12/13/03 08:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
I agree that is an important issue. But I only agree provisionally because other issues are more important. Issues that deal with a person's life directly like self-defense or the right to protect one's self are more important.




Are Americans really worried that guns are going to be illegal someday? I dont think there is a chance in hell of that happening.

I think the issue is not really about drugs. The WOD is about freedom, just as the right to bear arms is about freedom.

The problem isn't that: they are taking away your right to have a joint now and then.

The problem is: how they go about stopping you from having a joint now and then.

They have to eliminate freedoms in order to win. Searching people and forcefully invading people's homes, with armed SWAT teams, in the name of destroying marijuana plants is not freedom. Property and asset forfeiture. Parapharnelia laws. Government propaganda. Harsh jail terms. Etc. The WOD is giving the Feds more ways to gain power than anything else. WOT? Ha! Few people have been unjustly imprisoned in the WOT in comparison to the WOD.


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man = monkey + mushroom


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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2175496 - 12/13/03 10:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with you to a point but I'd have to say that most people would say health care is a bigger priority than the drug war, but I suppose the two are somewhat linked. They could at least decrim the good herb. peace.


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" Don't ration your compassion " - unknown


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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2175551 - 12/13/03 11:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

What, people can't think for themselves without being high? I think that is rediculous. My daughter has never been high and she is very independant and totaly thinks for herself. The fact that children disobey their parents proves that. Sure there are some control issues there but more to the point it is about the freedom to decide what a person puts into their body.

There has been a huge amount of progress in this area recently IMO. The truth in trials act, medical marijuana. Change happens slowly.

Hopefully the issue with the feds returning the seized pot and equipment will all the way to the supreem court. It will be a battle between states rights and fed powers. Would be very interesting.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2175565 - 12/13/03 11:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I never intended to convey the idea that people cannot think independantly if they dont get high.

Look at it this way: the experience of drugs represents a certain kind of information which can only be gained by experiencing the drug. Prohibition seeks to cut us off from this information. Does it not impair one's ability to think and make correct decisions if they are lacking certain information? Prohibition is a form of mind control. Those in power do not want people to see the world from the perspective that drugs can provide. They do not want us to have these experiences because these experiences empower us.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2175577 - 12/13/03 11:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

To a certain extent I agree but I thing that the information you speak of can be gained in other ways but over a longer period of time. Drugs may be a short cut to it but the lack of drugs does not make it impossible to get that knowledge. I'm sure someone here could name dozens of people who got there without drugs. Ghandi maybe?


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2175591 - 12/13/03 11:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

aint no ghandi's in the ghetto.

true, some people dont need drugs. but some people do.

I dont invoke general principles very often, but all I'm saying is that for the US govt to tell me what I can and cannot put into my brain is mind control, which is wrong. More wrong than stealing money. Money is useless in the hands of someone whose very mind is controlled.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2175618 - 12/13/03 11:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I've been waiting for this issue of state vs federal law to come up...it will be very interesting to see...probalby one of the pivotal moments in current history.


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"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2175626 - 12/13/03 11:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
aint no ghandi's in the ghetto.

true, some people dont need drugs. but some people do.

I dont invoke general principles very often, but all I'm saying is that for the US govt to tell me what I can and cannot put into my brain is mind control, which is wrong. More wrong than stealing money. Money is useless in the hands of someone whose very mind is controlled.




..so what your saying is..that once the govt arrogates the right to control your mind like that..then it simultaneously arrogates the right to steal your money too..which is exactly what has been done..as the escalation of the drug war has coincided with the looting of the population...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2175629 - 12/13/03 11:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

And the ghetto users are using to gain enlightenment and knowledge? I see your point and agree. They have no right to tell me shit untill I harm another person or infringwe on their rights. It is like seat belt laws. A seatbelt might save my life but the gov. has no right to make me wear it. And if you don't think insurance companies had a part in passing seatbelt laws in order to decrease their risk while increasing profits your nuts. Just like drug companies would prefer some drugs that don't require a lab to make remain illegal so they can see you their product. Follow the money.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2175674 - 12/14/03 12:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

unfortunately..most amerikkkans view the power of the drug companies..and the scumbags that run them..as being liberty itself..and not a threat to liberty...as such..by interfering with them..you are infringeing on the liberties of that whole crowd at large...i dont understand that kind of logic..borne of non drug use..either...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinehavatampa
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2176036 - 12/14/03 04:01 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Hey Annapurna, what the phukk is that in your avatar? Are you for real? I think you need to consider moving out of your mom's basement and putting an end to your fantasizing about adolescent she-males. Plus, please stongly consider avoiding advanced political vocabulary. It's just disturbing when juxtaposed with that nasty ass boy pussy that looms in your avatar. But no offense, brother. I mean, I wouldn't want to offend you with my words, not you of completely unoffensive avatar.


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There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: havatampa]
    #2176049 - 12/14/03 04:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Read the rules governing posting in this forum.

If you cannot follow them, a recommendation will be made to the Admins that you receive a temporary ban from The Shroomery.

You get one warning. This is that warning.

Have a good day.

pinky


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Offlinehavatampa
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2176052 - 12/14/03 04:14 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, I apologize. I guess the text is offensive, while the picture is completely acceptable. BTW, pinky, are you a pinko? If so, rock on! Me too. Sorry for violating the strict "shroom"ery rules. I didn't know it was a police site.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: havatampa]
    #2176074 - 12/14/03 04:39 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You've been here long enough to know that OTD or PM's is the place for that.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinehavatampa
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2176079 - 12/14/03 04:45 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Come on folks, this is a site with illegality, technical or not, at its very premise. OOOH. I challenge someone with some swear words... oops. Oh No!! I used the word fuck.

Sorry, but I take offense to the pre-teen vagina being used as an avatar. As a matter of fact, I think certain powers that be would be very interested in knowing that a "legitimate" site permits explecitly illegal content, while forbidding content that contains profaintity and a backbond driven provacation. If this is the kind of website this is, then fuck you, ban me for life. I just take offense to little kids privates being displayed for no good reason, especially when you "warn" me for using provacative language (ooohhh)


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: havatampa]
    #2176082 - 12/14/03 04:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Dude, it's not a pre-teen vagina. It's an adult vagina with teeth.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinehavatampa
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: silversoul7]
    #2176089 - 12/14/03 04:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, my bad. I should have realized that that's completely unoffensive. Well, in that case I take back all of my benign text. I mean, how could anyone take offense to a vagina with teeth? Now, mean spirited words on the other hand, ooooh!!!!! Watch out.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: havatampa]
    #2176091 - 12/14/03 04:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The vagina with teeth isn't directed at anyone. Mean-spirited words are.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinehavatampa
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: silversoul7]
    #2176107 - 12/14/03 05:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You know what? I bet if you (silversoul) and I were hanging out, smoking phat, oh so fat, bowls from my trusty sherlock. Waxing philisophical and venturing into the rhelm of the absurd, that we both would look at this little exchange and...hmmm...shall I say chortle smoke through our noses??? You seem cool man, I'm not trying to offend you. I just think a vagina with teeth is a bit unneccessary, that's all.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2176237 - 12/14/03 07:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
And the ghetto users are using to gain enlightenment and knowledge? I see your point and agree. They have no right to tell me shit untill I harm another person or infringwe on their rights. It is like seat belt laws. A seatbelt might save my life but the gov. has no right to make me wear it. And if you don't think insurance companies had a part in passing seatbelt laws in order to decrease their risk while increasing profits your nuts. Just like drug companies would prefer some drugs that don't require a lab to make remain illegal so they can see you their product. Follow the money.




That's a great point. I was talking about seat belt laws with a friend because I was describing this thread. When they first came out Mario Cuomo was governor of New York and was in a 6 car accident. He initiated the first seat belt law. Most people didn't seem to mind those laws and some even thought they were a good idea. I, on the other hand, went ballistic. I told everyone those laws set a dangerous precedent. That it gave the government the ability to force me to do what was good for me.

Learyfan: If I misstated your view on gun control I apologize. I thought you were against guns.

For the rest: It is possible to make a case that the right to use drugs is more important than defending oneself. But it is impossible to make that case and make it convincing. The war on drugs is terrible. But the war against self defense is far worse because life is more important than drugs.

Cheers,

MM


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2176252 - 12/14/03 07:51 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I know what you mean. When they rece4ntly passed them here (actualy the law has been there but they can now pull you over for it where they couldn't use it as probable cause to pull you over before) I was outraged but a lot of people I know thought it was no big deal and a good idea. They would say I wear mine anyway so why would I care. I was like "Are you fuckin kiding me? It is about the precident it sets!" This is a VERY important point. They will pass a law that most people will not object to and by doing so set a precident and infringe on peoples rights They do it slowly while your not looking, and the next thing you know you are living behing bars.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlineshakta
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2180105 - 12/15/03 06:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

To be honest the WOD is currently one of the smallest issues in my mind. My ability to smoke a joint in the street, pales in comparison to the war on terror, and about every other issue I can think of. You have to realize that this is not a mainstream issue and won't be anytime soon.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: shakta]
    #2180511 - 12/15/03 08:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

that vagina with teeth makes me shudder.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: shakta]
    #2181699 - 12/16/03 06:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

One million people imprisioned for no good reason isn't an important issue? It's more important than the economy, prescription drugs for seniors, The trade deficit, or the national debt.

It isn't about your right to be able to smoke pot, it's about people's right not to be locked up for no reason.


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
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Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2181712 - 12/16/03 06:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'll give you that.

But it is not more important than the right to protect yourself and your family.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2181760 - 12/16/03 07:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not aware of anyone trying to take away the right to protect yourself or your family. I've just heard of laws limiting the means by which you can do so.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: silversoul7]
    #2181779 - 12/16/03 07:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well the term 'limiting' is sort of the key word.

Sure, you can defend yourself from a guy with a snub nose .38.

Here's a pencil.

If a person is denied reasonable means to protect themselves it isn't only limiting. It strips a person of effective means to defend themselves.

We received the limited freedoms we have in this country because of guns. We will keep those freedoms the same way.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2182159 - 12/16/03 12:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree that the right to defend oneself is more important than the right to use drugs. and I fully support the 2nd amendment

however, the WoD is a bigger issue now simply because it is reality.
on the other hand, your fear of having your guns taken away from you is pure speculation at this point. and it will probably never happen. it's not so easy to change the constitution. only an amendment can change/repeal another amendment and you know the stringent requirements for that (3/4 majority approval of state legislatures to ratify). in other words, nearly impossible. I wouldn't worry about this too much, especially since there is a REAL threat of unjust imprisonment hanging over all of us right NOW.

2 points:
1. they are NOT knocking down doors in the middle of the night, taking away guns from lawful citizens and locking them up. sure this COULD happen some time in the future, but is extremely unlikely.
2. they ARE currently locking up drug users for the crime of altering their conciousness. this very moment there are a million people in prison for posession of drugs. not a single person is in prison solely for the crime of owning a gun.

which is the bigger issue? there's no contest.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2182224 - 12/16/03 12:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

On the face of it that seems plausible but there are a few slight corrections to that stance that I would make.

There are people in jail for possessing a weapon.

And one ruling by the Supreme Court and the 2nd Amendment vanishes by interpretation.

As I said before the WODU is terrible but the right to defend oneself supersedes it.

There are places in the US where you are not allowed to own a gun. And if you are caught with one you may very likely go to jail.

Our freedoms have been vanishing since the ink was wet on the Constitution, which was flawed to begin with.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2182265 - 12/16/03 01:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)


not a single person is in prison solely for the crime of owning a gun


I know a person who is. He is(well...was..) a gun enthusiast.

A long time ago he got into some trouble. He got a good lawyer and
got off with a misdemeanor. He specifically asked his lawyer to
preserve his gun rights(If you are a convicted felon you don't have
gun rights). His lawyer was able to do that(in fact the cops gave
him back all the guns they had confiscated from his house).

A couple of years ago he starts to buy more guns. In my state,
whenever you buy a hangun(he bought four of them) you need to
go through an extensive background check. Every time he went to
undergo this background check he told the people who were
conducting it to specifically look at his criminal record to
make sure he was allowed to own that gun. Every time he passed
the background check and got the gun.

One day the ATF breaks down his door and he is charged with owning
a gun when you aren't allowed to. It turns out there is a somewhat
recent federal law that says if you have ever been convicted of
a crime that has the POSSIBILITY of more than a year in jail,
then you can't own a gun. Nevermind if you actually did a year in
jail. All that matters is if there is a possibility.

So for example, if you are in a bar and someone punches you and you
shove them back, and you happen to charged with disorderly conduct.
Let's say that your state's law says that disorderly conduct has
a punishment from 100$ to 10000$ and two years in prison. You will
never be allowed to own a gun again.

He is currently doing two years in a federal prison. He does
not deserve to be there. He made every effort to obey the law
and the background check failed him. If he knew he was prohibited
from owning a gun, he would not have attempted to acquire them.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2182357 - 12/16/03 01:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

well if he was convicted of a crime earlier and prohibited from owning a gun, then he didn't go to prison solely for the crime of owning a gun. but I shouldn't have made that categorical statement anyway. I'm sure there are people who are imprisoned simply for owning a gun. however these are rare cases dealing with mostly local laws and statutes and doesn't change the fact we (99.99% of us) still have the right to own guns and defend ourselves. and as I said above, this is unlikely to change.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2182375 - 12/16/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You're probably right about that. Sweeping changes are never or rarely how we get where we are.

How many gun laws in 1960 (Federal)?

None.

How many today?

Over 10,000.

If the trend continues guns will eventually be outlawed here.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2182619 - 12/16/03 03:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

ah the old "slippery slope" argument.

How many gun laws in 1960 (Federal)?

None.

How many today?

Over 10,000.


not one of which prevents a lawful adult from purchasing a gun.

and in 2040 there will be 20,000 gun laws.

none of which would prevent a lawful adult from purchasing a gun.

and in 2080 there will be 30,000 gun laws. so what?

isn't this what you'd expect? maybe you forget but guns ARE dangerous and they need to be regulated - made safe to use and kept out of the wrong hands. I mean there are probably thousands of laws and regulations dealing with pharmaceuticals, automobiles or anything else that is potentially dangerous. legislation is government refuse. it's what they do. it doesn't necessarily point to some ominous trend.

and most of those laws deal with things like gun registration, background checks, carry permits and the kinds of things RandalFlagg was talking about - like who can and can't own guns etc. there are some dumb laws and there are some sensible ones, like you can't buy full-auto assault rifles or "cop-killer" bullets or having to go through a background check and a waiting period. these laws can be bothersome and some gun-nut might really be pissed that he can't own a gat, but these laws do not infringe on your right to bear arms in any significant way.

and who exactly is trying to take away my right to bear arms? the supreme court? the federal government? the democrats? who? I don't really see a massive campaign to outlaw guns, except in the heads of the NRA types. even someone like Michael Moore doesn't support outlawing guns outright. no president or presidential candidate in his right mind, be they democrat or republican, is going to advocate the prohibition of guns. it would be political suicide and they all know it.

the most convincing reason that guns will never be outlawed is that it simply would not work and the government knows this. how would they go about collecting all the guns in the country? will it be voluntary? oh yeah I'm sure all the criminals will show up to that one. or maybe they could go door to door..?. none of this would actually prevent criminals from using guns of course. thousands of pounds of drugs enter the country every month. you think they can't sneak in a few handguns? all prohibition will do is turn the market over to organized crime - much as what happened during alcohol prohibition and much like what's happening today with drugs. it just won't work. it will just create a bigger problem and (I hope) our government knows this.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2182732 - 12/16/03 04:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
not one of which prevents a lawful adult from purchasing a gun.



That statement says nothing, seeing as it is against the law for adults to purchase certain weapons that they could before.

Quote:

and in 2040 there will be 20,000 gun laws.

none of which would prevent a lawful adult from purchasing a gun.



See above. The laws in place today are precisely what is being discussed. To say 'lawful' ignores the points that MM is making.

Quote:

isn't this what you'd expect? maybe you forget but guns ARE dangerous and they need to be regulated - made safe to use and kept out of the wrong hands.



Why don't we start by disarming politicians. History shows that political entities are FAR more dangerous to the life and well being of the common man than the lone criminal or law abiding (non-government employee) citizen.

Quote:

I mean there are probably thousands of laws and regulations dealing with pharmaceuticals, automobiles or anything else that is potentially dangerous. legislation is government refuse. it's what they do.



And it's what they do BADLY.

Quote:

it doesn't necessarily point to some ominous trend.



Apparently you are ignorant of history.

Quote:

and most of those laws deal with things like gun registration,



Makes it very easy to go and confiscate weapons once the people in charge of the government apparatus decide to criminalize formally legal behavior.

Quote:

... like you can't buy full-auto assault rifles or "cop-killer" bullets...



Do you know anything about guns except what you hear or read from anti-gun rights advocates? Terms such as 'cop killer bullets' or 'assault rifle' are buzzwords which have little meaning to those who know firearms. Any rifle can be used as an assult rifle, just as any knife could be used as an assault knife. 'Cop killer' bullets are any bullets that might be used to defend oneself against an increasingly totalitarian police state.

Quote:

or having to go through a background check and a waiting period...



In a country where an ever increasing number of peaceful behaviors are becoming illegal, and in which we have the highest incarceration rate of any developed nation don't you see any problems with this?

Quote:

... but these laws do not infringe on your right to bear arms in any significant way.



That's right and anti-semite laws in Nazi Germany did not infringe on the rights of non-semites.

Quote:

and who exactly is trying to take away my right to bear arms? the supreme court? the federal government? the democrats? who? I don't really see a massive campaign to outlaw guns, except in the heads of the NRA types. even someone like Michael Moore doesn't support outlawing guns outright. no president or presidential candidate in his right mind, be they democrat or republican, is going to advocate the prohibition of guns.



Do a google search. Educate yourself.

Quote:

the most convincing reason that guns will never be outlawed is that it simply would not work and the government knows this...... it will just create a bigger problem and (I hope) our government knows this.



Like the war on poverty? Like the war on drugs? Like anti-sodomy laws? Like alcohol prohibition? Like prostitution? Governments OFTEN engage in acts which defy common sense and reason. This does not mean it will not be attempted.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Evolving]
    #2183336 - 12/16/03 07:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

wtf??? your arguing the wrong points here.

first of all, I am against gun control. I think the right to bear arms is the most important right we have next to our first amendment rights. I just don't participate in all the hysteria about "them" trying to take away our rights. I just don't see it. I could walk into a Kmart and walk out with an AR-15 any time I want. it certainly doesn't feel like my rights are being trampled on. how many people are really being denied the right to protect themselves?

The laws in place today are precisely what is being discussed. To say 'lawful' ignores the points that MM is making.

I think you misunderstood. what I meant by "lawful" is that a person over the age of 18 without a criminal background can buy guns today, just as they could do 50 years ago. you still have the right to own and bear arms. despite those 10,000 laws, this fact remains unchanged.

Why don't we start by disarming politicians.

??? I never said we should disarm anyone. but if we did. sure, we could start with the politicians. sounds good.

it doesn't necessarily point to some ominous trend

Apparently you are ignorant of history


there is no historical precedent for the current firearm situation in America. no other country in the world has the 2nd amendment. and to say that all those gun laws will lead to complete prohibition is just speculation.

Makes it very easy to go and confiscate weapons once the people in charge of the government apparatus decide to criminalize formally legal behavior.

yes, which is why I'm against registration. this would be one of the dumb laws I was referring to.

Do you know anything about guns except what you hear or read from anti-gun rights advocates? Terms such as 'cop killer bullets' or 'assault rifle' are buzzwords which have little meaning to those who know firearms.

I don't really listen to any anti-gun rights advocates. and I actually know quite a bit about firearms. an "assault rifle" is a common term used (by many including the military) to describe a class of rifle. I don't know if there is an "official" classification, but it's a common term used by gun enthusiasts and I could care less if the gun-control folks also use it.

Any rifle can be used as an assult rifle

sure any rifle can be used to assault someone. but I doubt anyone would describe a .22 bolt-action peashooter as an "assault rifle"

or having to go through a background check and a waiting period...

In a country where an ever increasing number of peaceful behaviors are becoming illegal, and in which we have the highest incarceration rate of any developed nation don't you see any problems with this?


huh? you don't think people should get background checks when they buy guns? I think this is an example of good firearm legislation.

and who exactly is trying to take away my right to bear arms? the supreme court? the federal government? the democrats? who? I don't really see a massive campaign to outlaw guns, except in the heads of the NRA types

Do a google search. Educate yourself.


I'm aware that there are anti-gun forces out there of course. but I happen to think that they don't stand a chance. that's all.

Like the war on poverty? Like the war on drugs? Like anti-sodomy laws? Like alcohol prohibition? Like prostitution? Governments OFTEN engage in acts which defy common sense and reason. This does not mean it will not be attempted.

yeah kind of. except things like drug or alcohol use or sodomy or prostitution are not specifically protected by the constitution like the right to bear arms. also (with the exception of alcohol prohibition), these things had popular support, more or less. if they tried to take away peoples guns... forget about popular support, there would be a massive revolt.

you might have some legitimate concerns about those gun laws and about our rights in the future, but I still think it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the government will attempt to take away our right to bear arms. go ahead and worry yourself sick if you're so inclined. I prefer to focus on real injustices happening everyday like the WoD, not on an extremely unlikely, hypothetical situation some time in the future.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2183347 - 12/16/03 07:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

they will never take away our toys!
:devil:



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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Evolving]
    #2184622 - 12/17/03 05:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:

Thanks for taking the time and having the patience to answer him, E.

I don't have a lot of either.  Of course that is a certain way to get yourself branded as some kind of arrogant SOB.  You see, we really need to spend volumes of time arguing numerous points with people that aren't very good at connecting the dots.

That way they think we are either ignorant or morally corrupt after we do.

Wait a minute.

I think I stumbled on to something here.

Cheers,

MM


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2185670 - 12/17/03 05:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

We received the limited freedoms we have in this country because of guns. We will keep those freedoms the same way.



I've never heard of anyone having to point a gun at someone for their freedom of speech. Please explain how guns give us our other freedoms.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: silversoul7]
    #2186121 - 12/17/03 08:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

How do you form a country?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2186183 - 12/17/03 09:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

In our case, with violence. In Canada's case, just ask for it and promise to continue to have the Queen of your former ruler on your currency.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2186232 - 12/17/03 09:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
How do you form a country?





First you'll need a name, and a cool flag, then you will need to select organism's to be the official organism of that type for your country.

That's basically it.


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2186657 - 12/18/03 12:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

/me scribbles mental notes


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