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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 17 years, 28 days
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: silversoul7]
    #2176107 - 12/14/03 05:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You know what? I bet if you (silversoul) and I were hanging out, smoking phat, oh so fat, bowls from my trusty sherlock. Waxing philisophical and venturing into the rhelm of the absurd, that we both would look at this little exchange and...hmmm...shall I say chortle smoke through our noses??? You seem cool man, I'm not trying to offend you. I just think a vagina with teeth is a bit unneccessary, that's all.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2176237 - 12/14/03 07:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
And the ghetto users are using to gain enlightenment and knowledge? I see your point and agree. They have no right to tell me shit untill I harm another person or infringwe on their rights. It is like seat belt laws. A seatbelt might save my life but the gov. has no right to make me wear it. And if you don't think insurance companies had a part in passing seatbelt laws in order to decrease their risk while increasing profits your nuts. Just like drug companies would prefer some drugs that don't require a lab to make remain illegal so they can see you their product. Follow the money.




That's a great point. I was talking about seat belt laws with a friend because I was describing this thread. When they first came out Mario Cuomo was governor of New York and was in a 6 car accident. He initiated the first seat belt law. Most people didn't seem to mind those laws and some even thought they were a good idea. I, on the other hand, went ballistic. I told everyone those laws set a dangerous precedent. That it gave the government the ability to force me to do what was good for me.

Learyfan: If I misstated your view on gun control I apologize. I thought you were against guns.

For the rest: It is possible to make a case that the right to use drugs is more important than defending oneself. But it is impossible to make that case and make it convincing. The war on drugs is terrible. But the war against self defense is far worse because life is more important than drugs.

Cheers,

MM


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2176252 - 12/14/03 07:51 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I know what you mean. When they rece4ntly passed them here (actualy the law has been there but they can now pull you over for it where they couldn't use it as probable cause to pull you over before) I was outraged but a lot of people I know thought it was no big deal and a good idea. They would say I wear mine anyway so why would I care. I was like "Are you fuckin kiding me? It is about the precident it sets!" This is a VERY important point. They will pass a law that most people will not object to and by doing so set a precident and infringe on peoples rights They do it slowly while your not looking, and the next thing you know you are living behing bars.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2180105 - 12/15/03 06:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

To be honest the WOD is currently one of the smallest issues in my mind. My ability to smoke a joint in the street, pales in comparison to the war on terror, and about every other issue I can think of. You have to realize that this is not a mainstream issue and won't be anytime soon.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: shakta]
    #2180511 - 12/15/03 08:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

that vagina with teeth makes me shudder.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 26,161
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: shakta]
    #2181699 - 12/16/03 06:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

One million people imprisioned for no good reason isn't an important issue? It's more important than the economy, prescription drugs for seniors, The trade deficit, or the national debt.

It isn't about your right to be able to smoke pot, it's about people's right not to be locked up for no reason.


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2181712 - 12/16/03 06:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'll give you that.

But it is not more important than the right to protect yourself and your family.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2181760 - 12/16/03 07:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not aware of anyone trying to take away the right to protect yourself or your family. I've just heard of laws limiting the means by which you can do so.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: silversoul7]
    #2181779 - 12/16/03 07:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well the term 'limiting' is sort of the key word.

Sure, you can defend yourself from a guy with a snub nose .38.

Here's a pencil.

If a person is denied reasonable means to protect themselves it isn't only limiting. It strips a person of effective means to defend themselves.

We received the limited freedoms we have in this country because of guns. We will keep those freedoms the same way.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2182159 - 12/16/03 12:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree that the right to defend oneself is more important than the right to use drugs. and I fully support the 2nd amendment

however, the WoD is a bigger issue now simply because it is reality.
on the other hand, your fear of having your guns taken away from you is pure speculation at this point. and it will probably never happen. it's not so easy to change the constitution. only an amendment can change/repeal another amendment and you know the stringent requirements for that (3/4 majority approval of state legislatures to ratify). in other words, nearly impossible. I wouldn't worry about this too much, especially since there is a REAL threat of unjust imprisonment hanging over all of us right NOW.

2 points:
1. they are NOT knocking down doors in the middle of the night, taking away guns from lawful citizens and locking them up. sure this COULD happen some time in the future, but is extremely unlikely.
2. they ARE currently locking up drug users for the crime of altering their conciousness. this very moment there are a million people in prison for posession of drugs. not a single person is in prison solely for the crime of owning a gun.

which is the bigger issue? there's no contest.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2182224 - 12/16/03 12:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

On the face of it that seems plausible but there are a few slight corrections to that stance that I would make.

There are people in jail for possessing a weapon.

And one ruling by the Supreme Court and the 2nd Amendment vanishes by interpretation.

As I said before the WODU is terrible but the right to defend oneself supersedes it.

There are places in the US where you are not allowed to own a gun. And if you are caught with one you may very likely go to jail.

Our freedoms have been vanishing since the ink was wet on the Constitution, which was flawed to begin with.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2182265 - 12/16/03 01:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)


not a single person is in prison solely for the crime of owning a gun


I know a person who is. He is(well...was..) a gun enthusiast.

A long time ago he got into some trouble. He got a good lawyer and
got off with a misdemeanor. He specifically asked his lawyer to
preserve his gun rights(If you are a convicted felon you don't have
gun rights). His lawyer was able to do that(in fact the cops gave
him back all the guns they had confiscated from his house).

A couple of years ago he starts to buy more guns. In my state,
whenever you buy a hangun(he bought four of them) you need to
go through an extensive background check. Every time he went to
undergo this background check he told the people who were
conducting it to specifically look at his criminal record to
make sure he was allowed to own that gun. Every time he passed
the background check and got the gun.

One day the ATF breaks down his door and he is charged with owning
a gun when you aren't allowed to. It turns out there is a somewhat
recent federal law that says if you have ever been convicted of
a crime that has the POSSIBILITY of more than a year in jail,
then you can't own a gun. Nevermind if you actually did a year in
jail. All that matters is if there is a possibility.

So for example, if you are in a bar and someone punches you and you
shove them back, and you happen to charged with disorderly conduct.
Let's say that your state's law says that disorderly conduct has
a punishment from 100$ to 10000$ and two years in prison. You will
never be allowed to own a gun again.

He is currently doing two years in a federal prison. He does
not deserve to be there. He made every effort to obey the law
and the background check failed him. If he knew he was prohibited
from owning a gun, he would not have attempted to acquire them.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2182357 - 12/16/03 01:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

well if he was convicted of a crime earlier and prohibited from owning a gun, then he didn't go to prison solely for the crime of owning a gun. but I shouldn't have made that categorical statement anyway. I'm sure there are people who are imprisoned simply for owning a gun. however these are rare cases dealing with mostly local laws and statutes and doesn't change the fact we (99.99% of us) still have the right to own guns and defend ourselves. and as I said above, this is unlikely to change.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2182375 - 12/16/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You're probably right about that. Sweeping changes are never or rarely how we get where we are.

How many gun laws in 1960 (Federal)?

None.

How many today?

Over 10,000.

If the trend continues guns will eventually be outlawed here.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2182619 - 12/16/03 03:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

ah the old "slippery slope" argument.

How many gun laws in 1960 (Federal)?

None.

How many today?

Over 10,000.


not one of which prevents a lawful adult from purchasing a gun.

and in 2040 there will be 20,000 gun laws.

none of which would prevent a lawful adult from purchasing a gun.

and in 2080 there will be 30,000 gun laws. so what?

isn't this what you'd expect? maybe you forget but guns ARE dangerous and they need to be regulated - made safe to use and kept out of the wrong hands. I mean there are probably thousands of laws and regulations dealing with pharmaceuticals, automobiles or anything else that is potentially dangerous. legislation is government refuse. it's what they do. it doesn't necessarily point to some ominous trend.

and most of those laws deal with things like gun registration, background checks, carry permits and the kinds of things RandalFlagg was talking about - like who can and can't own guns etc. there are some dumb laws and there are some sensible ones, like you can't buy full-auto assault rifles or "cop-killer" bullets or having to go through a background check and a waiting period. these laws can be bothersome and some gun-nut might really be pissed that he can't own a gat, but these laws do not infringe on your right to bear arms in any significant way.

and who exactly is trying to take away my right to bear arms? the supreme court? the federal government? the democrats? who? I don't really see a massive campaign to outlaw guns, except in the heads of the NRA types. even someone like Michael Moore doesn't support outlawing guns outright. no president or presidential candidate in his right mind, be they democrat or republican, is going to advocate the prohibition of guns. it would be political suicide and they all know it.

the most convincing reason that guns will never be outlawed is that it simply would not work and the government knows this. how would they go about collecting all the guns in the country? will it be voluntary? oh yeah I'm sure all the criminals will show up to that one. or maybe they could go door to door..?. none of this would actually prevent criminals from using guns of course. thousands of pounds of drugs enter the country every month. you think they can't sneak in a few handguns? all prohibition will do is turn the market over to organized crime - much as what happened during alcohol prohibition and much like what's happening today with drugs. it just won't work. it will just create a bigger problem and (I hope) our government knows this.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2182732 - 12/16/03 04:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
not one of which prevents a lawful adult from purchasing a gun.



That statement says nothing, seeing as it is against the law for adults to purchase certain weapons that they could before.

Quote:

and in 2040 there will be 20,000 gun laws.

none of which would prevent a lawful adult from purchasing a gun.



See above. The laws in place today are precisely what is being discussed. To say 'lawful' ignores the points that MM is making.

Quote:

isn't this what you'd expect? maybe you forget but guns ARE dangerous and they need to be regulated - made safe to use and kept out of the wrong hands.



Why don't we start by disarming politicians. History shows that political entities are FAR more dangerous to the life and well being of the common man than the lone criminal or law abiding (non-government employee) citizen.

Quote:

I mean there are probably thousands of laws and regulations dealing with pharmaceuticals, automobiles or anything else that is potentially dangerous. legislation is government refuse. it's what they do.



And it's what they do BADLY.

Quote:

it doesn't necessarily point to some ominous trend.



Apparently you are ignorant of history.

Quote:

and most of those laws deal with things like gun registration,



Makes it very easy to go and confiscate weapons once the people in charge of the government apparatus decide to criminalize formally legal behavior.

Quote:

... like you can't buy full-auto assault rifles or "cop-killer" bullets...



Do you know anything about guns except what you hear or read from anti-gun rights advocates? Terms such as 'cop killer bullets' or 'assault rifle' are buzzwords which have little meaning to those who know firearms. Any rifle can be used as an assult rifle, just as any knife could be used as an assault knife. 'Cop killer' bullets are any bullets that might be used to defend oneself against an increasingly totalitarian police state.

Quote:

or having to go through a background check and a waiting period...



In a country where an ever increasing number of peaceful behaviors are becoming illegal, and in which we have the highest incarceration rate of any developed nation don't you see any problems with this?

Quote:

... but these laws do not infringe on your right to bear arms in any significant way.



That's right and anti-semite laws in Nazi Germany did not infringe on the rights of non-semites.

Quote:

and who exactly is trying to take away my right to bear arms? the supreme court? the federal government? the democrats? who? I don't really see a massive campaign to outlaw guns, except in the heads of the NRA types. even someone like Michael Moore doesn't support outlawing guns outright. no president or presidential candidate in his right mind, be they democrat or republican, is going to advocate the prohibition of guns.



Do a google search. Educate yourself.

Quote:

the most convincing reason that guns will never be outlawed is that it simply would not work and the government knows this...... it will just create a bigger problem and (I hope) our government knows this.



Like the war on poverty? Like the war on drugs? Like anti-sodomy laws? Like alcohol prohibition? Like prostitution? Governments OFTEN engage in acts which defy common sense and reason. This does not mean it will not be attempted.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Evolving]
    #2183336 - 12/16/03 07:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

wtf??? your arguing the wrong points here.

first of all, I am against gun control. I think the right to bear arms is the most important right we have next to our first amendment rights. I just don't participate in all the hysteria about "them" trying to take away our rights. I just don't see it. I could walk into a Kmart and walk out with an AR-15 any time I want. it certainly doesn't feel like my rights are being trampled on. how many people are really being denied the right to protect themselves?

The laws in place today are precisely what is being discussed. To say 'lawful' ignores the points that MM is making.

I think you misunderstood. what I meant by "lawful" is that a person over the age of 18 without a criminal background can buy guns today, just as they could do 50 years ago. you still have the right to own and bear arms. despite those 10,000 laws, this fact remains unchanged.

Why don't we start by disarming politicians.

??? I never said we should disarm anyone. but if we did. sure, we could start with the politicians. sounds good.

it doesn't necessarily point to some ominous trend

Apparently you are ignorant of history


there is no historical precedent for the current firearm situation in America. no other country in the world has the 2nd amendment. and to say that all those gun laws will lead to complete prohibition is just speculation.

Makes it very easy to go and confiscate weapons once the people in charge of the government apparatus decide to criminalize formally legal behavior.

yes, which is why I'm against registration. this would be one of the dumb laws I was referring to.

Do you know anything about guns except what you hear or read from anti-gun rights advocates? Terms such as 'cop killer bullets' or 'assault rifle' are buzzwords which have little meaning to those who know firearms.

I don't really listen to any anti-gun rights advocates. and I actually know quite a bit about firearms. an "assault rifle" is a common term used (by many including the military) to describe a class of rifle. I don't know if there is an "official" classification, but it's a common term used by gun enthusiasts and I could care less if the gun-control folks also use it.

Any rifle can be used as an assult rifle

sure any rifle can be used to assault someone. but I doubt anyone would describe a .22 bolt-action peashooter as an "assault rifle"

or having to go through a background check and a waiting period...

In a country where an ever increasing number of peaceful behaviors are becoming illegal, and in which we have the highest incarceration rate of any developed nation don't you see any problems with this?


huh? you don't think people should get background checks when they buy guns? I think this is an example of good firearm legislation.

and who exactly is trying to take away my right to bear arms? the supreme court? the federal government? the democrats? who? I don't really see a massive campaign to outlaw guns, except in the heads of the NRA types

Do a google search. Educate yourself.


I'm aware that there are anti-gun forces out there of course. but I happen to think that they don't stand a chance. that's all.

Like the war on poverty? Like the war on drugs? Like anti-sodomy laws? Like alcohol prohibition? Like prostitution? Governments OFTEN engage in acts which defy common sense and reason. This does not mean it will not be attempted.

yeah kind of. except things like drug or alcohol use or sodomy or prostitution are not specifically protected by the constitution like the right to bear arms. also (with the exception of alcohol prohibition), these things had popular support, more or less. if they tried to take away peoples guns... forget about popular support, there would be a massive revolt.

you might have some legitimate concerns about those gun laws and about our rights in the future, but I still think it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the government will attempt to take away our right to bear arms. go ahead and worry yourself sick if you're so inclined. I prefer to focus on real injustices happening everyday like the WoD, not on an extremely unlikely, hypothetical situation some time in the future.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2183347 - 12/16/03 07:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

they will never take away our toys!
:devil:



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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Evolving]
    #2184622 - 12/17/03 05:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:

Thanks for taking the time and having the patience to answer him, E.

I don't have a lot of either.  Of course that is a certain way to get yourself branded as some kind of arrogant SOB.  You see, we really need to spend volumes of time arguing numerous points with people that aren't very good at connecting the dots.

That way they think we are either ignorant or morally corrupt after we do.

Wait a minute.

I think I stumbled on to something here.

Cheers,

MM


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2185670 - 12/17/03 05:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

We received the limited freedoms we have in this country because of guns. We will keep those freedoms the same way.



I've never heard of anyone having to point a gun at someone for their freedom of speech. Please explain how guns give us our other freedoms.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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