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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2173964 - 12/13/03 02:07 AM (18 years, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
I agree with you wholeheartedly.







And not only drug policy but a whole shitload of things would change don't ya think? Forien policy, domestic policies. corp. laws, shit everything.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2174013 - 12/13/03 02:43 AM (18 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
pattern writes:

he WOD has ended, is ending, or has not even existed in alot of the world.

A lot of the world? What is your definition of a "lot" of the world? By number of countries? By population? By area of landmass?

Even if by WOD you refer strictly to marijuana, I would like to see you list a lot of countries meeting any of those three criteria.

When you refer to the WOD, though, you refer to all illicit drugs. In this case, I would like to see you list even ONE such country.

Before you get all huffy, realize that I too am in favor of legalizing all drugs. I just want you to back up your bogus assertion.

pinky




How about you prove that the War on Drugs is in full force all over the world?  :lol:

Then you can attack my position with some evidence.  Otherwise, your opinion has no weight over mine.  :rolleyes:

To clarify, by "lot", I mean: a not insignificant portion.


Edited by pattern (12/13/03 02:45 AM)


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: pattern]
    #2174079 - 12/13/03 03:35 AM (18 years, 10 hours ago)

In my home town, a few years ago the Dea was doing a house raid...And they had the wrong house. This guy hears people breaking into his house, so he grabs his pistol and goes to see what is up. The Dea agents (storm troopers of death) shoot him dead in his own house.

HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT? ARE YOU NOT ENRAGED?


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InvisibleObserver
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2174154 - 12/13/03 04:59 AM (18 years, 9 hours ago)

I thought this might be relevant to this thread...


Source: Rocky Mountain News ?

A man caught in the clash of state versus federal drug laws told News 4's Brian Maass that he couldn't believe federal agents raided his home for three marijuana plants he'd grown for medicinal use.

Donald Nord, 57, has a state permit to use marijuana to relieve chronic pain from cancer and diabetes. Federal agents, acting on information that Nord was growing marijuana, got a search warrant and found three plants and growing equipment.
The agents confiscated it, and Nord was given a ticket to appear in county court in November.

The case was thrown out and, on Monday, the county judge ordered the Drug Enforcement Administration to return the plants and the equipment. The DEA says it won't give them back willingly.

"I don't understand why the state says I can but the federal government says I can't," Nord told News 4.

State law allows medicinal users, with the recommendation of a doctor, to go into a registry of those permitted to smoke, grow or otherwise acquire marijuana. Federal law prohibits all possession of marijuana.

The judge gave the DEA 21 days to return Nord's property.

Jeff Dorschner, spokesman for the Colorado U.S. attorney's office, said staff will review the county judge's order for the return of the marijuana.

Source: Denver Rocky Mountain News (CO)
Published: December 11, 2003
Copyright: 2003 Denver Publishing Co.
Contact: letters@denver-rmn.com
Website: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Observer]
    #2174189 - 12/13/03 05:39 AM (18 years, 8 hours ago)

You know what is fuct about that? The search warrent was issued from a state court and local agents conducted the search. The seized proporty should have been the property of the state not the feds. Not to mention that the state should not have issued the warrent in the first place.


http://www.mpp.org/CO/news_5731.html

Judge: Return Marijuana
The Steamboat Pilot; December 9, 2003
by Susan Bacon

A Hayden resident who uses marijuana for medicinal purposes should have growing equipment and 2 ounces of the drug that were seized in a search returned to him, a county judge ruled Monday.

The decision, which had to account for conflicting state and federal drug laws, may set an important precedent, Routt County Judge James Garrecht said.

"Obviously, this case has the potential of going a whole lot further than just this court," Garrecht said after giving his decision. "This may be a precedent-setting case a whole lot further down the road."

Several ounces of usable marijuana, three marijuana plants and growing equipment were taken during a GRAMNET search of 57-year-old Don Nord's home in mid-October. GRAMNET, the Grand, Routt and Moffat Narcotics Enforcement Team, is a federal task force made up of local officers.

Deputy District Attorney Marc Guerette, who represented GRAMNET, had no comment on the judge's decision and said he wasn't sure whether he would pursue an appeal, which would go to District Court if it was filed.

During the hearing, Nord's attorney, Kristopher Hammond, argued that because the search warrant was served through a state court and charges were dismissed through the state court, the officers should follow state law and return the property.

Garrecht then asked Hammond to clarify the state and federal laws, which he did.

Under a Colorado law that voters approved in 2000, people suffering from debilitating medical conditions, such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, glaucoma, and chronic severe pain, are allowed to grow and smoke marijuana. Colorado is one of eight states that allows medicinal marijuana use.

Nord, who has battled kidney cancer, diabetes, a lung disease, and other illnesses, is listed with the state's Medical Marijuana Registry program.

But according to federal laws, none of that matters; marijuana is an illegal drug for everyone.

Hammond also directed the judge's attention to part of the state law that says that property seized from someone registered to use medicinal marijuana should not be harmed or neglected and should be returned.

"All of a sudden, this marijuana they seized under a state order now becomes federal property," Hammond said. "My suspicion, judge, is they're just trying to do an end run around this case."

After the search, Nord was issued a citation for the possession of between 1 and 8 ounces of marijuana and possession of drug paraphernalia. Those charges were dismissed, Garrecht said, because the citation was filed late.

Garrecht asked why those charges were filed in a county court, and Guerette replied that he was not sure, but that it didn't matter because the marijuana and growing equipment are now federal property. He also said that it was clear that GRAMNET officers operated under federal laws.

Hammond cited an Oregon Court of Appeals decision in which marijuana was seized from a man who was allowed to use it for medicinal purposes. Federal officers argued it would violate federal law to return the drug, but a local court said the drug should be returned, a decision which was upheld by the appeals court.

Guerette said the Oregon court's decisions were not binding for this county, but Garrecht said that because neither lawyer was aware of a similar case for Colorado, the Oregon case offered some important precedent, which he used in making his decision.

Garrecht then ordered that the seized property be returned. Hammond said that the marijuana plants were uprooted so they probably had died, and Garrecht responded that those would not be returned.

Two ounces of usable marijuana, along with containers, a 1,000-watt bulb, pipes, a scale, rolling papers and several other items were ordered to be returned within 21 days. Some of those items, Guerette said during court, had been shipped to a federal lab in San Francisco.

Before the hearing ended, Hammond said, "Your honor, my client just asked me if he can grow marijuana again."

Garrecht replied that he did not give out legal advice.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Phred]
    #2174294 - 12/13/03 08:23 AM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
silversoul7 writes:

Explain how his position is consistent with socialist philosophy.

I suspect Mr Mushrooms will be back to expand. I wouldn't want to spoil his fun. If he hasn't done so in a day or two, bump this thread and I'll give it a go.

You might want to re-examine his original statements, though, and examine the implications.

pinky




Thank you Pink.

Yes, I was joking. The socialist position maintains the rights of the collective supersede the rights of the individual. That position could also be called the egalitarian position. The opposite position is libertarian which favors the rights of the individual over the rights of the collective. Many laws lean in favor of one position or the other.

Every country is a blend of the two positions. And it is possible that persons can also be a blend of those positions. But when they do so they can make value judgments that are inconsistent, likewise with countries.

I am currently reading a book that examines justice in juxtaposition with both philosophies. Its premise is that justice requires a balance between the two philosophies. It maintains that egalitarianism which strips people of too many individual rights tramples justice and that libertarianism which strips individuals of their natural rights does the same.

I find the argument interesting but not wholly convincing. I favor the individual over the collective, as does Pink if I read him correctly.

The argument starts with the premise that we are are endowed with certain natural rights given to us by virtue of birth and our intrinsic nature.

Two examples of these rights are the ability to defend ourselves, i.e. self-defense, and the right to life which implies sustenance in the form of food and other things that promote health.

Some people are in favor of denying people the right to protect themselves with guns, self-defense, while agreeing that the collective can obtain money from individuals by force in order to supply everyone in the collective with sustenance. Other people are in favor of denying people the right to put substances in their bodies but are in favor of using guns for self-protection, self-defense.

Which is more important and in accordance with our natural rights, self-defense or chemicals that alter our consciousness?

I think the answer is fairly obvious.

Which is more important and in accordance with our natural rights, sustenance or our freedom from collective coercion?

For me, that answer isn't obvious.

This is because I lean towards the libertarian position. I favor self-defense in the form of ownership and usage of guns to protect myself and my family. I favor the individuals right to consume, in any fashion, plants, chemicals or any other substance in order to alter their consciousness. I favor the rights of the individual to be free from coercion with respect to their personal property which includes money over that of the collective to supply the members of the collective with sustenance.

Those that aren't familiar with me wouldn't necessarily know I was joking. But I thought the gerbil 'defense' would have made that fairly obvious. Gerbils in butts are not the cause of AIDS.

Cheers,

MM


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174316 - 12/13/03 08:54 AM (18 years, 5 hours ago)

Nice.

Now back to the issue of the War On Drugs being one of the BIGGEST issues in the world of politics.





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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2174344 - 12/13/03 09:52 AM (18 years, 4 hours ago)

Biggest?

Biggest as in how? How is this issue greater than the right to defend one's self? Or the supposed right to sustenance?

If you are saying that it is an egregious offense for a nation to imprison those who have used substances I agree with you. But if you are saying that is more egregious than the collective attempting to take away one's right to defend one's self I disagree.

Which is more important, the right to self-defense or the right to consume recreatinoal drugs? The first one is life itself. The second one doesn't deal with life or death.


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OfflineGranola
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2174352 - 12/13/03 10:08 AM (18 years, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
In my home town, a few years ago the Dea was doing a house raid...And they had the wrong house. This guy hears people breaking into his house, so he grabs his pistol and goes to see what is up. The Dea agents (storm troopers of death) shoot him dead in his own house.

HOW FUCKED UP IS THAT? ARE YOU NOT ENRAGED?




happens every day.


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OfflineGranola
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Observer]
    #2174356 - 12/13/03 10:10 AM (18 years, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Observer said:
The judge gave the DEA 21 days to return Nord's property.





and what happens if they dont, will the bailiff whack the DEA's pee pee


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174357 - 12/13/03 10:12 AM (18 years, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

it is an egregious offense for a nation to imprison those who have used substances




^^^^
I'm saying come election time, this should be one of the biggest issues on people's minds.







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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2174366 - 12/13/03 10:25 AM (18 years, 3 hours ago)

I agree that is an important issue.  But I only agree provisionally because other issues are more important.  Issues that deal with a person's life directly like self-defense or the right to protect one's self are more important.

The collective in the United States has decided that the use of illicit drugs is bad for the State because it is bad for individuals and others that reside in the State.  If you are a socialist, and you are, I don't see how you can defend your position without being inconsistent.

You would take away my guns and deny me the right to defend myself and my family from dangerous criminals who would kill us.  You would take my money to give to others who can't provide for themselves. 

But you would give me  :spliff: to enjoy myself?

It sounds to me like you would have me be a happy slave to the collective.

No thanks.

I'd rather be free.


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2174386 - 12/13/03 10:51 AM (18 years, 3 hours ago)

To summarize what I have said let me put it another way.

I will defend myself rather than dial 911 and hope someone arrives in time to save me from the home invader who has a gun pointed at me.

I will keep as much of my money from the State as I can and I would rather die than live off stolen goods.

I will use whatever drugs I see fit in order to enjoy myself.

In all cases it is my body and myself that I prefer over the dictates of the collective.

The collective doesn't have to right to steal my money,strip me of my right to protect myself, or tell me what kind of substances I can use.

I decide those things.


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174389 - 12/13/03 10:54 AM (18 years, 3 hours ago)

Who said I would take your guns away?

Non-violent citizens should be able to have guns and drugs if they like.




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OfflineGranola
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174398 - 12/13/03 11:01 AM (18 years, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
To summarize what I have said let me put it another way.

I will defend myself rather than dial 911 and hope someone arrives in time to save me from the home invader who has a gun pointed at me.





I know someone that tried to prevent a killing by caling 911, the cops said there was no crime committed yet and they couldnt do anything until there was. do you think the police would respond to a home invasion?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Learyfan]
    #2174424 - 12/13/03 11:18 AM (18 years, 2 hours ago)

[note: i had originally posted this response as a separate thread..which failed to attract much interest..so i moved it here...anyway..this is the real reason for the war on drugs...]

i know this sounds crazy..but what if there really is a valid reason for neocon thuggery??...which is..of course..not to say that the Bush junta is actually telling the truth...

but there is..however..this tiny matter of depreciation..caused by the lack of a hard currency..meaning that the value of a dollar is determined by the total value of existing goods and services under US sovreignty...for example..if i spend $x on a pack of cigarettes..then that $x is only worth that much until i smoke the cigarettes..after which it loses all its value..and becomes $x worth of inflation..for which american workers must add that much more hours in order to compensate...that is what is meant by a depreciational cost...the value of fiat money depends on what its spent on...

OTOH..under the old system..i could swap the pack of cigarettes for an ounce of silver..which would still be worth an ounce of silver even after the cigarettes are gone...(one ounce is admittedly a bit steep in most locales..but im using it as an example)..there are no depreciational costs with hard currency...and its value does not depend on how its spent...

the example with the cigarettes..also holds true for marijuana, mushrooms..and other drugs..alcohol..and for food..fuel..and military munitions..or any other consumable good..too...in the case of food..and to a lesser extent fuel..some or all of the depreciational cost can be recovered as production..and with munitions..as land resources (if you win the war)...but without hard currency..drugs..alcohol..and tobacco..are necessarily entirely depreciational spending...and from my own experience as a drug user..i tend to incur even more non-drug-related depreciational costs when im on drugs...

one point worth mentioning..is that as the state accelerates its anti-drug efforts..this drives the price of the drugs higher..which in turn makes drug use even more inflationary..which of course necessitates further increases in power..this is an example of what the far right calls "self-sustaining growth"..a race to the bottom...

and so in order to maintain the value of fiat currency..the state must use all availible means to curtail depreciational spending...this means keeping money out of the hands of the ppl in the first place..so that they cannot indulge in inflationary spending..and concentrating wealth into the hands of an ascendant financial oligarchy..again to prevent its depreciation...the state..acting at the behest of the FO..has the power to authourise certain inflationary spending (alcohol and tobacco) and deal most harshly with unauthourised inflationary spending...

at the present moment..the dollar is under pressure from the euro..and various other foreign currencies..and the junta's imperialist warmongering will push even more inflation..in the short term if successful..in the long term if not...and aside from oil and pure spite..one of the reasons for this warmongering..is to thwart a catastrophic sell-off of the dollar in favour of the euro...as such we can expect much more repression and agressive action from the junta so long as this pressure continues...

the bottom line is that fiat currency requires fascism to back it up...nixon knew this when he killed the gold standard..and he did it precisely for that reason...i dont have to back that claim up..why do you think they called him "dick"??...it has been said that fiat currencies always eventually collapse...i see two possible futures for the collapse of the dollar: 1) the rest of the world realizes their fucked either way..and dumps all their nukes on us before the junta's missile "shield" (yes..armour can be an offensive weapon in cases like this) is in place..or 2) the world bows to the junta's will..resulting in a long-term systematized mass killing operation..like hitler and stalin on a global scale...

one obvious solution would be to revert back to hard currency...but this is only a necessary condition for civil society to exist..not sufficient in itself..if the FO and the junta would ever allow it...whats even worse..is there might not be enough gold and silver in the world to sustain a global economy..in which case the restoration of hard currency also requires one of the two options above...

and that..in a nutshell..is what i believe to be the real reason for neo-fascist ascendancy in the US..a direct result of which is the war on drugs...

BTW...if it were my choice..i would choose the nukes...i have seen the alternative..when i visited the remains of auschwitz on a recent trip to europe...


--------------------


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2174538 - 12/13/03 12:41 PM (18 years, 1 hour ago)

i just wrote a speach on the drug war, and i thnk you all should hear some of the facts

because of the drug war there have been over 220,000 hiv infections because of the illegality and un-avaliability of clean needles, this represents 1/3 of all aids cases, over half of these people have died

there are 10 preventable hiv cases each and every day.

many politicians have stated that they see hiv and aids as an effective deterant to using drugs.

every 20 seconds someone is arrested for a drug crime

the federal spending for the war on drugs 17 mil a year, is equal to the money spent on the entire food stamp program.

federally and locally the spending is 37 mil a year and grwoing.

this is a link to a site, the site is a memorial for all of those that have been gunned down and blown out of the sky by mistake during the drug war.
through taxes each and everyone of us ownes a part of the bullet that killed these people. their blood is on our hands
http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/08/17/drugWarVictims.html


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2174545 - 12/13/03 12:50 PM (18 years, 1 hour ago)

i dont doubt any of what you say at all...my point was merely that the purpose behind all of it is to control inflationary spending...

EDIT: the expenditures that you mentioned..are in the minds of the junta..outweighed by the savings in inflationary costs...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (12/13/03 02:16 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: ]
    #2174595 - 12/13/03 01:42 PM (18 years, 28 minutes ago)

Quote:

Biggest?

Biggest as in how? How is this issue greater than the right to defend one's self? Or the supposed right to sustenance?

If you are saying that it is an egregious offense for a nation to imprison those who have used substances I agree with you. But if you are saying that is more egregious than the collective attempting to take away one's right to defend one's self I disagree.






Well, let me just make this point: you take guns or money out of the people's hands, you have weakened their resources, their ability to live, and defend themselves against criminals and crooked governments.

You take drugs away from people and its going a step further- you're not just removing their physical resources- you're removing their mental, emotional, and spiritual resources.

Take away my guns, and you take away my physical ability to rebel. Take away my drugs- you're greatly lessening the possibility that i will even think to rebel. You're stoping the revolution where it starts- in the synapses of each individual member of the populace.

anyway, I just think that there is a line that should be drawn. Taxes, gun control- these are things designed to control my external physical environment. Prohibition is much more personal- it is designed to control my mental environment. Afterall, ownership of material things is subjective. But no one can truly say that they own my body, mind, and spirit except me. But with prohibition, they are trying to control that which is more sacred than any earthly possession- my God-given body and brain.

That being said, prohibition is a much more important issue to me than taxes or gun control (niether of which I am too fond of, BTW).

Take my guns. Take my money. I wont give them up without a fight, but they are not what is truly important to me. The mind of the individual is the the final political battleground- and money and guns dont mean shit in that place.

What good are guns and money in the hands of those who have no control over their minds?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Anonymous

Re: The War On Drugs is one of the BIGGEST issues [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2174597 - 12/13/03 01:42 PM (18 years, 28 minutes ago)

nice post.

well, except the bit about the mass killing, i kind of lost you at that point.


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