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 jsncrs
DYEL
Registered: 01/16/14
Posts: 1,170
Loc: Mars
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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 Re: Protein Shakes  [Re: PDU]
#21816891 - 06/16/15 09:46 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
PDU said:
This is impossible, especially without steroids.
Correct.
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
 
Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21817260 - 06/16/15 11:48 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is impossible, especially without steroids.
FYI - I understand what you mean, and that you made good gains - however, that number is much too high. I believe a gain of 1.5-2lbs lean muscle mass is the HIGHEST possible in professional athletes. This is well documented.
Well documented my ass. Two things:
1. lifeiswhatyoumakeit didn't claim that he gained 13 pounds of lean muscle, only 13 pounds of muscle. It's a lot easier to gain muscle when you gain some fat along with it.
2. As a semi-professional athlete who does not use steroids I can assure you that it is indeed possible to gain more than 1.5-2lbs of lean muscle in a month and a half, particularly when you first start working out, or when you begin working out again after a break from it. If I've been taking it easy in the gym for a while and then decide to ramp it up and hit the weights hard for a month and a half (accompanying my increased training load with increased caloric intake), I can (not not without a lot of hard work) gain 13lbs of muscle mass in that time, with negligible changes in body-fat percentage. I will, however, make two disclaimers: a) I am quite big, so 13lbs for me is not as much percentage gain as it is for others. and b) The more muscle mass you gain, the harder it is to continue gaining, particularly if you are going to stay lean. If I have been working out hard for a while then the gains are extremely slow.
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PDU
travel kid vs.amerika
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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First off in my post i was referring to the genetic limits of 1.5-2lbs of muscle per month (not 1.5 month). While i concede that newbies may break the rules to some extent, especially if they haven't finished growing - there is absolutely no way a normal sized person gained 13lbs of muscle mass in one month.
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumakeit didn't claim that he gained 13 pounds of lean muscle, only 13 pounds of muscle. It's a lot easier to gain muscle when you gain some fat along with it.
Yes - obviously - so I am not sure what you are saying here. Do you mean he meant that he gained 9.75lbs of muscle and 3.25lbs of fat (assuming an extremely generous 75/25% muscle/fat percentage) or maybe a more realistic percentage of 50/50% equalling 6.5lbs of fat and muscle....
Lets go with the more probable later number - that means, assuming newbie gains carry on for 12 months, that he will have gained 78lbs of lean muscle mass and 78lbs of fat during that time. This likely near doubling of body mass in 12 months.
This is obviously ridiculous.
If people could put on anywhere close to that muscle naturally - body builders would be ubiquitous.
Quote:
If I've been taking it easy in the gym for a while and then decide to ramp it up and hit the weights hard for a month and a half (accompanying my increased training load with increased caloric intake), I can (not not without a lot of hard work) gain 13lbs of muscle mass in that time, with negligible changes in body-fat percentage.
I think you are confused. Perhaps you can put on 13lbs of mass or perhaps you can do a bit of a body recomposition - but if you are gaining 13lbs in 6 weeks you are gaining primarily fat.
This is the best article i've read about it - from a leading authority.
But hey - who knows - maybe we have 2 exceptions to the rules right here on the shroomery!
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GO OUTSIDE.
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 The Doobie Dude
Registered: 04/28/13
Posts: 13,498
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21818359 - 06/17/15 09:49 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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I put on 40lbs of muscle in 10 months with a crazy diet and extremely strict workout regime. 13lbs in a month does not sound realistic.
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"There are a million reasons to drink and one just popped into my head. If a man can't drink when he's living how the Hell can he drink when he's dead?" - Irish Limerick
I PLURed once because it was PLUR or die. - D.M.T.
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Big Worm
Perf
Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 7,642
Last seen: 4 years, 13 hours
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I use Optimum Nutrition Natural Gold Standard Whey
Been using it for years.
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21818431 - 06/17/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes - obviously - so I am not sure what you are saying here. Do you mean he meant that he gained 9.75lbs of muscle and 3.25lbs of fat (assuming an extremely generous 75/25% muscle/fat percentage) or maybe a more realistic percentage of 50/50% equalling 6.5lbs of fat and muscle....
I mean that if you gain fat with muscle, then it is easier to gain muscle. e.g. If someone had the goal of gaining 10lbs of muscle in two months, but they couldn't gain any fat along with this muscle, then this would be an extremely difficult goal to achieve. If, however, they could gain as much fat as they like with the muscle, then the goal becomes much easier. Gaining 10lbs of muscle and 10lbs of fat, at the same time, is easier than gaining 10lbs of muscle alone. Fat acts as a security measure for the body.
I can't answer questions about 'lifeiswhatyoumakeit' I don't know him, I don't know what he has and has not achieved, I am just arguing points.
Quote:
Lets go with the more probable later number - that means, assuming newbie gains carry on for 12 months, that he will have gained 78lbs of lean muscle mass and 78lbs of fat during that time. This likely near doubling of body mass in 12 months.
This is obviously ridiculous.
I never said that someone could keep up large gains over a prolonged period, so I'll restate what I said before: The more muscle you gain, the harder it is to gain further muscle.
The link you posted was referring to maximum lean muscle mass for natural athletes who are lean. I never said I was talking about people who are 5-10% body-fat. If you are willing to gain more body-fat, then you can continue to gain more muscle. Take me for example. I have gained ridiculous amounts of muscle in short periods of time, but this required me to gain lots of fat with it. A couple of years ago I gained 87lbs in just over 6 months in an effort to get stronger and improve my athletic performance. I estimate somewhere around 40-45lbs of this weight was fat, so obviously my body-fat percentage went up a lot (from around 17% to around 26%). But this means that I was able to gain 40lbs+ of muscle mass, which was evident in the gains I got on my lifts: (70lb on my bench press, 1320lb on my squat, 154lb on my dead-lift, 40lb on my overhead press etc.). The bigger I got, the harder it was to keep the gains coming, in the first month I gained about 30lbs, but in the last month I probably only gained about 5lbs.
Quote:
If people could put on anywhere close to that muscle naturally - body builders would be ubiquitous.
Again, i am not talking about gains while remaining lean. If you are willing to gain fat, then muscle comes more easily. Natural athletes are capable of large gains in muscle mass, and a large total lean mass, they just need to be willing to gain fat along with the muscle mass, whereas somebody who uses lots of steroids might be able to make these gains without gaining much fat at all, if any.
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PDU
travel kid vs.amerika
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Ok - we agree that it is easier to put on muscle while gaining fat hence why powerlifters and heavy weight oly lifters are often fat.
I am not going to argue further - all i know is that there have been numerous studies with careful controls for diet, exercise, bf% and other metrics which contradict what is being claimed in this thread and I tend to side with the exercise scientists.
The likely culprit is an overestimation of muscle mass with a simultaneous underestimation of fat gain. I have no doubt that people gained mass and got strong in short periods of time. I think we are arguing about semantics.
The truth is - most of us here are using iffy metrics by which to judge our progress.
Cheers.
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GO OUTSIDE.
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21818579 - 06/17/15 10:54 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
all i know is that there have been numerous studies with careful controls for diet, exercise, bf% and other metrics which contradict what is being claimed in this thread and I tend to side with the exercise scientists.
Have you read these studies? I have. The subjects being measured are bodybuilders, and the conclusions have to do with their maximum muscle mass when they are in contest shape (very lean). The maximum FFMI guidelines (the studies show a 25-FFMI is about as big as any natural athlete can hope for) are given for athletes who are 10%BF or leaner.
Quote:
The truth is - most of us here are using iffy metrics by which to judge our progress.
I can't speak for others, but I've gotten a DEXA scan (the single most accurate measurement system for BF% available) if that satisfies your woes, I take as objective a position as possible when evaluating changes in my body composition. I can even send you my DEXA scan results, or before and after pictures if you wish, I don't think our disagreement is a semantic one, the claims being made are very clear. The science you are referring to does not contradict my claims, because, again, I am referring to people with a higher body-fat.
Are you not going to argue further because you are tired of arguing? If you consider yourself a reasonable and open minded person then why not continue to discuss, and maybe you will learn something, or maybe I will learn something. As a hard working athlete and personal trainer I don't enjoy having to continually deal with a lot of the myths and misconceptions floating around the fitness industry, they are making it difficult for intellectual progress to be made.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
pump ur peen
Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 17,187
Last seen: 4 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21818597 - 06/17/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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I haven't worked out in the gym that hard ever before around eight months ago.
I also tend to eat big big meals when I'm working out.
Everyone's body is different.
The fact that I've hit a wall with gaining weight after my first month and a half of working out tells me that my body was certainly capable of gaining that quick weight, but it will take a lot of time and effort to make it gain any more.
I am not sure if the 13 pounds I gained in a month and a half was pure muscle or a mixture of muscle and fat. I don't see why I would have gained any fat...
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 I dropped a cheesy pop dance track "Be With Me, Baby": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wezFSNS7JDI
Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (06/17/15 10:58 AM)
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PDU
travel kid vs.amerika
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Quote:
secondorder said:
If you consider yourself a reasonable and open minded person then why not continue to discuss, and maybe you will learn something, or maybe I will learn something. As a hard working athlete and personal trainer I don't enjoy having to continually deal with a lot of the myths and misconceptions floating around the fitness industry, they are making it difficult for intellectual progress to be made.
Sounds good - i will revisit later this evening. Homework right now. 
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GO OUTSIDE.
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21818616 - 06/17/15 11:01 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Okay sounds good, bedtime for me though, I'll revisit this tomorrow.
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PDU
travel kid vs.amerika
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
I am not sure if the 13 pounds I gained in a month and a half was pure muscle or a mixture of muscle and fat. I don't see why I would have gained any fat...
This was the whole point I was addressing! Thank you for coming back and saying that. I can see where your logic is coming from, unfortunately physiologically as you gain muscle you also gain alot of fat, despite working out hard. This is the logic of bulking and cutting; you bulk on fat and muscle and then cut the fat, leaving behind most of the muscle. There are many variables including hormones, sleep, rest, diet, insulin response, etc which will effect the results of both bulk and cut cycles. That said - I am a novice and am simply regurgitating what i've read. Never the less, i do feel like my research has been fairly balanced and i do have a rudimentary understanding. I will try and substantiate my point of view tonight.
I've meant no harm to anyone nor do i mean to take away from the gains made, because you guys are doing better than me! However, I will return later and try and substantiate what i've said to secondorder and if not will concede ignorance and defeat.
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GO OUTSIDE.
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theRAPeutic
Hueman
Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 8,702
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Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said:
I haven't worked out in the gym that hard ever before around eight months ago.
I also tend to eat big big meals when I'm working out.
Everyone's body is different.
The fact that I've hit a wall with gaining weight after my first month and a half of working out tells me that my body was certainly capable of gaining that quick weight, but it will take a lot of time and effort to make it gain any more.
I am not sure if the 13 pounds I gained in a month and a half was pure muscle or a mixture of muscle and fat. I don't see why I would have gained any fat...
Its never pure muscle. at that rate you would be around 35 pounds heavier in 4-5 months. maybe half would be muscle.
you stopped eating at a caloric surplus is why you stopped gaining weight. eat more
Quote:
The Doobie Dude said:
I put on 40lbs of muscle in 10 months with a crazy diet and extremely strict workout regime. 13lbs in a month does not sound realistic.
if this is true you must have put on 70 plus pounds total in that 10 months.
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21819970 - 06/17/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I've meant no harm to anyone nor do i mean to take away from the gains made, because you guys are doing better than me! However, I will return later and try and substantiate what i've said to secondorder and if not will concede ignorance and defeat.
You haven't caused any harm and you haven't taken anything away. Why not think about this as a scientific/philosophical discussion, where we're just trying to find out the truth?
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PDU
travel kid vs.amerika
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Quote:
secondorder said:
Quote:
I've meant no harm to anyone nor do i mean to take away from the gains made, because you guys are doing better than me! However, I will return later and try and substantiate what i've said to secondorder and if not will concede ignorance and defeat.
You haven't caused any harm and you haven't taken anything away. Why not think about this as a scientific/philosophical discussion, where we're just trying to find out the truth?
100% - just making sure we're not getting butt hurt at each other.
Reply pending - might not happen till tomorrow night. Sorry!
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GO OUTSIDE.
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PDU
travel kid vs.amerika
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21834825 - 06/21/15 12:11 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fuck me - I just wrote an extremely long and detailed reply to this thread addressing each point 1 by 1 and then lost it in a copy/paste accident.
Long story short:
- lifeiswhatyoumakeit has admitted that he did not gain 13lbs of lean muscle mass in 6 weeks.
- Secondorders story about gaining 87lbs in 6 months with an estimated 40-47lbs of lean muscle gain during that time indicates that he gained exactly within the range of maximum genetic muscular potential which i state, and that we are arguing about.
A couple other points while we are here:
Quote:
1. lifeiswhatyoumakeit didn't claim that he gained 13 pounds of lean muscle, only 13 pounds of muscle. It's a lot easier to gain muscle when you gain some fat along with it.
I don't see how your distinguishing between muscle and lean muscle; these are the same thing. The distinction is between lean muscle mass and overall body mass; the later consisting of glycogen, water, lean muscle tissue and fat.
I think the real argument started here:
Quote:
As a semi-professional athlete who does not use steroids I can assure you that it is indeed possible to gain more than 1.5-2lbs of lean muscle in a month and a half, particularly when you first start working out, or when you begin working out again after a break from it.
As I said above - I meant 1.5-2lbs/month - which i stated in my next post. Your own "ridiculous muscle gains" during your 6 month bulk fit within this range, as do doobies.
Quote:
The link you posted was referring to maximum lean muscle mass for natural athletes who are lean.
No - 2 of the 4 methodologies are. The first one "the McDonald Model" is what i was referring to, and it predicts rate of gain for novice/intermediate and advanced lifters and the 2nd model supports the conclusions of the first. All 4 models predict similar limits of total lean body mass and arrive at them via different methodologies.
The conclusion is especially relevant to this discussion:
Quote:
As I noted in the introduction, a lot of lifters get fairly angry or upset over the above types of estimations, assuming that they don’t take into account individual differences in motivation, work ethic, etc. To that I say nonsense.
Both Casey and Martin’s equations are based on top level natural bodybuilders, the group that you’d expect to surpass such limits if they existed (and who’s dedication and work ethic is pretty hard to question). Mine and Alan’s are based on years of experience in the field. If a massive number of exceptions to the above existed, someone would have seen them by now.
Quote:
Natural athletes are capable of large gains in muscle mass, and a large total lean mass, they just need to be willing to gain fat along with the muscle mass, whereas somebody who uses lots of steroids might be able to make these gains without gaining much fat at all, if any.
Yes - i understand that it is easier to gain mass when fat is in surplus. If what you are saying had no limits, we would see 260lb 5% natural bodybuilders and we dont. Again - the article addresses this.
Quote:
I can't speak for others, but I've gotten a DEXA scan (the single most accurate measurement system for BF% available) if that satisfies your woes, I take as objective a position as possible when evaluating changes in my body composition.
Comparing a DEXA scan of your current BF% with a previous BF% taken by another method is inherently inaccurate. I honestly don't care about your BF% whatsoever ... You've already stated your gains and timeline and they fall within the parameters I am arguing for. If you can come vastly outside of 1.5-2lbs of lean muscle gain per month, I may be intrigued to see some evidence.
Maybe i've lost the point of it all, but what are we referring to here:
Quote:
I don't enjoy having to continually deal with a lot of the myths and misconceptions floating around the fitness industry, they are making it difficult for intellectual progress to be made.
I see no reason to try and gather links to studies - the lyle mcdonald article is fairly encompassing and points anyone who wants to investigate further in the right direction. I see no contradictions to what is being said in the article.
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GO OUTSIDE.
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21835431 - 06/21/15 04:04 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Secondorders story about gaining 87lbs in 6 months with an estimated 40-47lbs of lean muscle gain during that time indicates that he gained exactly within the range of maximum genetic muscular potential which i state, and that we are arguing about.
Quote:
First off in my post i was referring to the genetic limits of 1.5-2lbs of muscle per month (not 1.5 month).
2lb X 6 = 12lbs. Didn't you say that everyone's "genetic muscular potential" is only 2lbs per month? 40-47lbs in 6 months is 7lbs per month. Or did I misinterpret you?
Quote:
I don't see how your distinguishing between muscle and lean muscle; these are the same thing. The distinction is between lean muscle mass and overall body mass; the later consisting of glycogen, water, lean muscle tissue and fat.
My mistake, this is just my misunderstanding of your terminology. When you said "lean muscle" gains, I thought you meant clean-bulk muscle gains only, excluding any muscle gained if it was accompanied with fat gains.
Quote:
No - 2 of the 4 methodologies are. The first one "the McDonald Model" is what i was referring to, and it predicts rate of gain for novice/intermediate and advanced lifters and the 2nd model supports the conclusions of the first.
Yes, you're right, the first two are about muscle gains.
Quote:
All 4 models predict similar limits of total lean body mass and arrive at them via different methodologies
They predict total lean body mass for a lean athlete. They are estimates of lean muscle-mass for what a 10%ish bodyfat athlete can attain, if you are willing to be a higher BF% then you can have a higher total lean muscle-mass.
Quote:
Yes - i understand that it is easier to gain mass when fat is in surplus. If what you are saying had no limits, we would see 260lb 5% natural bodybuilders and we dont. Again - the article addresses this.
This is just your misinterpretation of what I wrote. We don't see 260lb natural bodybuilders at 5%BF because I am not talking about people who are 5%BF, I am talking about people who have a higher BF%. I'll try to be as clear as possible, because there is a fair bit of misunderstanding here:
I am arguing that it is possible to go beyond the suggested lean muscle-mass limit of 190 pounds, provided that you increase your BF% to well beyond what the author considers "lean" which is about 10%. For example, my DEXA scan from seven months ago shows that I weigh exactly 130.8716kg (287.917lbs), that I have a BF% of 19.1% and that my total lean body mass is 105.8358kg (232.8lbs) which is 40lbs over the suggested limit. If I was to lose body fat and get down to about 10%BF then maybe my lean mass would drop to 190lbs as suggested, but the fact that I have gained bodyfat beyond what is considered 'lean' I am able to exceed the proposed 'potential' of lean mass for a lean (10BF% or less) athlete.
I am not just arguing that it is easier to gain muscle if you have a fat surplus, I am arguing that it is easier to gain muscle while you are also gaining fat. I am also arguing that if you are willing to continue gaining fat, then the limit to maximum lean body mass is well over the proposed 'limit' of 190ish pounds.
Quote:
You've already stated your gains and timeline and they fall within the parameters I am arguing for. If you can come vastly outside of 1.5-2lbs of lean muscle gain per month, I may be intrigued to see some evidence.
Again, I don't think they do, 40-47lbs (just my estimate) in 6 months is about 7 pounds per month, not 1.5-2, and this was after six years of weight training and 7-8 of track and field training. I would be happy to send you my DEXA scan results as soon as I can get access to a scanner, which prove that my total lean body mass is 232.8 pounds. As for proof of my gains in 2013, all I have are pictures, as I did not have access to a DEXA scan, but why would I have any reason to lie. I'll post pictures in a sec of a before and after.
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
Registered: 04/05/15
Posts: 532
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Last seen: 11 months, 22 days
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This was actually after only about 4.5 months, on the left, I was about 100kg (220lb) and on the right, I was about 133kg (292.6 pounds). In the month and a half following, I gained another 15 pounds, but these last few pounds were mostly fat.
Edited by secondorder (06/21/15 04:30 AM)
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PDU
travel kid vs.amerika
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Yes - you are right - For some reason I was thinking 1.5-2lbs/week when considering your 40lb muscle gain in 6 months - totally stayed up too late when writing that reply. I have no argument against your gains.
Quote:
I am arguing that it is possible to go beyond the suggested lean muscle-mass limit of 190 pounds, provided that you increase your BF% to well beyond what the author considers "lean" which is about 10%. For example, my DEXA scan from seven months ago shows that I weigh exactly 130.8716kg (287.917lbs), that I have a BF% of 19.1% and that my total lean body mass is 105.8358kg (232.8lbs) which is 40lbs over the suggested limit. If I was to lose body fat and get down to about 10%BF then maybe my lean mass would drop to 190lbs as suggested, but the fact that I have gained bodyfat beyond what is considered 'lean' I am able to exceed the proposed 'potential' of lean mass for a lean (10BF% or less) athlete.
Aha. I follow now.
I see what you mean about the numbers falling outside of genetic muscular potential limits I have been championing so I wont comment further about it.
I appreciate the civility.
Keep up the good work.
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GO OUTSIDE.
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult
Registered: 05/28/14
Posts: 4,345
Loc: North
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Protein Shakes [Re: PDU]
#21835900 - 06/21/15 09:04 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you trying to gain musclemass, everyday 2 times eat a tablespoon of Olive Oil then a Handful of peanuts. And excersise.
You need healthy fats along with protiens. JUST protein wont do you any good musclemass wise, I learned that from my father, he used to be buff as a motherfucker, but he also went to the gym erryday.
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