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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
How much is a living wage?
    #21726284 - 05/26/15 08:03 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I'm curious, how much do you consider a living wage to be? Not necessarily a number, but what needs should be covered for a wage to be considered a "living wage." Should it cover the needs of more than one individual (significant other, children, etc.), and if so, how many people should it cover? Should it cover only the bare necessities (food, water, shelter) or should it also cover other services? Which ones?

There are many more questions like these that could be applied, but I'm just curious to hear people's opinions. Personally, I don't know how many people it should cover. I think it should be more than one (small family or a couple) but I don't know how many that is. I think it should also allow for upward mobility, for example, by being able to save money to go to trade school or community college. In addition to covering basic necessities, of course.

So, anyways, I'm not looking for a number, but what services should be covered before a wage is a "living wage"?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineDetached
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Registered: 02/27/15
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21726352 - 05/26/15 08:14 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I know you aren't looking for a number but studies I've read indicate that a gross annual income of $70,000 is the sweet spot for people with families in the US.

It really depends on your definition of basic necessities. People only need food, shelter and warmth for survival.

Everything else is up for interpretation.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Detached]
    #21726426 - 05/26/15 08:31 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

What does that 70,000 cover? I am looking for exactly that interpretation of what people need to survive, and also what is best for society as a whole.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineDetached
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21726508 - 05/26/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

What would you consider best for society as a whole?

Would that money include charitable contributions to your local church and non-profit organizations? Would it include being able to pay your taxes and afford healthcare so you don't depend on society to provide you with food stamps and disability income while helping to provide said accommodations for other people?

You could feed a ton of children in Africa at 20 cents a day with $70,000 but it isn't going to do much for your local community.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Detached]
    #21726627 - 05/26/15 09:20 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I think its really impossible to define a living wage as its dependent on the individual situation. I have friends who's rent is $100 a month because they chose a cheap part of town and roomed with a bunch of people. A "living wage" for an 18 year old not going school and living with a bunch of friends is very different than a living wage for a family of 4.


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Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Detached]
    #21726676 - 05/26/15 09:34 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Detached said:
What would you consider best for society as a whole?

Would that money include charitable contributions to your local church and non-profit organizations? Would it include being able to pay your taxes and afford healthcare so you don't depend on society to provide you with food stamps and disability income while helping to provide said accommodations for other people?

You could feed a ton of children in Africa at 20 cents a day with $70,000 but it isn't going to do much for your local community.




I'm not sure what's best for society as a whole. I think a living wage should make people entirely self-sufficient (no welfare, food stamps, medicare, etc.). I also think it would be beneficial if people had enough money to save up for a rainy day and were able to pursue some form of education so they could pursue higher paying and more helpful jobs.

And yes, I realize this sounds idealistic, but I think it is what society should work toward.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21726681 - 05/26/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
I think its really impossible to define a living wage as its dependent on the individual situation. I have friends who's rent is $100 a month because they chose a cheap part of town and roomed with a bunch of people. A "living wage" for an 18 year old not going school and living with a bunch of friends is very different than a living wage for a family of 4.




I completely agree. There's been a lot of talk recently about companies needing to provide a living wage, but I think that concept is somewhat ill-defined. That's what prompted my question.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21726682 - 05/26/15 09:36 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

People and places are not homogeneous, so it is impossible to define. To really define it would require a 'standard' lifestyle definition, for every place in the US. 

For an employer to pay it, each person would need to be individually evaluated.


Now, here is what government MANDATED 'living wage' will be:  It will be the base salary that includes the amount of sugar and free-stuff added into a persons salary,mandated by the government, that will cause the majority of people to pull the lever on election day for the politicians and officials who put it into law.


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OfflineDetached
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21726762 - 05/26/15 10:00 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think it can be really defined without answering the question of what a minimum wage should really be.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21727659 - 05/27/15 07:35 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
It will be the base salary that includes the amount of sugar and free-stuff added into a persons salary,mandated by the government, that will cause the majority of people to pull the lever on election day for the politicians and officials who put it into law.




Your ballot is invalid if you check every box.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21729755 - 05/27/15 06:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

In my opinion, it should be enough to cover food, shelter, utilities, clothing, and healthcare in the area where a person lives, for a single parent with two children.

Obviously, it should a minimal amount of food and shelter; not lobster every night in a large house.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21729876 - 05/27/15 06:45 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
In my opinion, it should be enough to cover food, shelter, utilities, clothing, and healthcare in the area where a person lives, for a single parent with two children.

Obviously, it should a minimal amount of food and shelter; not lobster every night in a large house.




How generous.  Two children, huh.  And that same wage would be required for a single person with no children?


Here is what I recommend.  If you make minimum wage do not have children.  If you still make minimum wage after you have been in the workforce for a few years please do not have children ever.  You will only be polluting the gene pool because you are clearly defective.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21729956 - 05/27/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Two children, huh.  And that same wage would be required for a single person with no children?



Yes, that's what I believe is fair for someone working full time.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Here is what I recommend.  If you make minimum wage do not have children.  If you still make minimum wage after you have been in the workforce for a few years please do not have children ever.  You will only be polluting the gene pool because you are clearly defective.



Some people aren't as smart as others.  But they can still work hard.  If you work hard and you work full time, I believe you deserve a living wage.  If you don't, then you shouldn't be hired in the first place, unless you change your attitude.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineWAN
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21730294 - 05/27/15 08:51 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
In my opinion, it should be enough to cover food, shelter, utilities, clothing, and healthcare in the area where a person lives, for a single parent with two children.

Obviously, it should a minimal amount of food and shelter; not lobster every night in a large house.




How generous.  Two children, huh.  And that same wage would be required for a single person with no children?


Here is what I recommend.  If you make minimum wage do not have children.  If you still make minimum wage after you have been in the workforce for a few years please do not have children ever.  You will only be polluting the gene pool because you are clearly defective.



Sounds like social darwinism.  Also you sound like you believe people should be "assessed" according to their economic output.  If they don't "perform", they should then be "purged". This is very chilling to read indeed.


Edited by WAN (05/27/15 08:52 PM)


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21730346 - 05/27/15 09:07 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall. 

Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineWAN
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21730355 - 05/27/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall. 

Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?




What's "sworkung"?  Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society.  I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality.  Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.


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OfflineWAN
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: WAN]
    #21730367 - 05/27/15 09:15 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Do you think we should do away with welfare and disability benefits (for disabled folks).  I mean if someone's "unfit", he/she should die so as to "improve our gene pool", right?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21730542 - 05/27/15 10:11 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work.



If someone wants to hire you to hit your head against a wall, then he should pay you at least a living wage to do it.

Quote:

Shins said:
Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?



I didn't say they should.  However, I believe that people who work hard for an employer full time doing the job they are hired to do deserves a living wage.  If a person fails to work hard doing what they are hired to do, then they should be fired.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21730648 - 05/27/15 10:59 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I didn't say they should.  However, I believe that people who work hard for an employer full time doing the job they are hired to do deserves a living wage.  If a person fails to work hard doing what they are hired to do, then they should be fired.




Let's not forget that if that person doesn't earn a living wage from their employer then they will be dependent on government handouts. I don't want to see the government subsidizing wages of private businesses in that way.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21731740 - 05/28/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I didn't say they should.  However, I believe that people who work hard for an employer full time doing the job they are hired to do deserves a living wage.  If a person fails to work hard doing what they are hired to do, then they should be fired.




Let's not forget that if that person doesn't earn a living wage from their employer then they will be dependent on government handouts. I don't want to see the government subsidizing wages of private businesses in that way.



i think this is only true if people make bad decisions. I know plenty of people who have more than survived on min wage because they make good choices, don't have kids, room with lots of people, etc.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlineqman
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21732244 - 05/28/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I didn't say they should.  However, I believe that people who work hard for an employer full time doing the job they are hired to do deserves a living wage.  If a person fails to work hard doing what they are hired to do, then they should be fired.




Let's not forget that if that person doesn't earn a living wage from their employer then they will be dependent on government handouts. I don't want to see the government subsidizing wages of private businesses in that way.




What creates a "living wage"?  A labor force which has a favorable supply vs demand equation, nothing more.

Do you know why real wages have declined for the last 30=40 years?  Too much supply (thanks globalization and illegal immigrants) vs demand (jobs).

I think like over 2 billion people survive on just under $2 per day, that's the hard reality where there is no fix.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: qman]
    #21732293 - 05/28/15 12:07 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
What creates a "living wage"?  A labor force which has a favorable supply vs demand equation, nothing more.

Do you know why real wages have declined for the last 30=40 years?  Too much supply (thanks globalization and illegal immigrants) vs demand (jobs).

I think like over 2 billion people survive on just under $2 per day, that's the hard reality where there is no fix.



If we live in a free market bubble, then you are correct; Americans are screwed.  But there are plenty of things that we can do: raise the minimum wage to give people more spending money, increase tariffs on goods from countries that don't follow fair labor practices, provide tax incentives that reward companies that don't outsource labor, etc...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/28/15 12:15 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21732666 - 05/28/15 01:49 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
What creates a "living wage"?  A labor force which has a favorable supply vs demand equation, nothing more.

Do you know why real wages have declined for the last 30=40 years?  Too much supply (thanks globalization and illegal immigrants) vs demand (jobs).

I think like over 2 billion people survive on just under $2 per day, that's the hard reality where there is no fix.



If we live in a free market bubble, then you are correct; Americans are screwed.  But there are plenty of things that we can do: raise the minimum wage to give people more spending money, increase tariffs on goods from countries that don't follow fair labor practices, provide tax incentives that reward companies that don't outsource labor, etc...




No argument there, tariffs to create a balance of trade and booting out the illegals would change wages for US workers in no time, but I don't see it happening.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: WAN]
    #21732669 - 05/28/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall. 

Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?




What's "sworkung"?  Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society.  I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality.  Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.




In that case I would quit my job and never work again.  Simply existing does not entitle you to free money.  That s not the way of nature, every living being needs to work to survive.  Those who adapt well prosper, and those who do not adapt go extinct.  There us no way around it. 


How exactly do you propose we supply all these humans with all that stuff?  Someone has to work to provide goods and services, those people will basically be slaves to provide all that stuff.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21732691 - 05/28/15 01:55 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

i think a living wage is like pornography..."I know it when I see it"


--------------------


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21732705 - 05/28/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work.



If someone wants to hire you to hit your head against a wall, then he should pay you at least a living wage to do it.






this what you don't seem to get; if i pay someone to do that, they will not produce much anything of value, I will go bankrupt doing so. 

An employee MUST produce a greater profit for an employer than he pays him in wages, or else there is no point hiring him.  You don't get 15 $/ hour simply for working, your work must produce at least $15.01 in value to jusify paying your wage, or else an employer is better off firing you. 


Many people truly are that useless and unadaptes that they are not worthy of life!  In nature if you cannot provide for yourself, you die. It is a fact of nature.  Trying to prop up those who rightfully should be naturally selected reallybdoes dilute the gene pool, you accept the theory of evolution don't you?



Quote:

Shins said:
Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?



I didn't say they should.  However, I believe that people who work hard for an employer full time doing the job they are hired to do deserves a living wage.  If a person fails to work hard doing what they are hired to do, then they should be fired.





an employee deserves no more than he produces.  A person does not deserve $15/hour ifbhe only produces 10 $/ hour in value.  Why should another person be obligated to pay the difference at a loss to himself?  He should not, and he should, and will fire the employee for being a liability.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21732718 - 05/28/15 02:04 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Offlinepsilynut
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21732874 - 05/28/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd th




    Great idea but I just want to know one thing , considering there's like 100 million people on welfare in th US , let's say we cut them all off and half manage to survive somehow and the other half just die off . That's 50 million bodies piled up .
  Where are they going to go to die and whos going to clean it all up . Are taxes going to pay for it or we just going to leave them on the sidewalk in front of the grocery store?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psilynut]
    #21732894 - 05/28/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd th




    Great idea but I just want to know one thing , considering there's like 100 million people on welfare in th US , let's say we cut them all off and half manage to survive somehow and the other half just die off . That's 50 million bodies piled up .
  Where are they going to go to die and whos going to clean it all up . Are taxes going to pay for it or we just going to leave them on the sidewalk in front of the grocery store?





the surviving half would get paid minimum wage to clean up the bodies, and people would say that they aren't producing enough for society to justify a higher wage than that


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21733164 - 05/28/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
An employee MUST produce a greater profit for an employer than he pays him in wages, or else there is no point hiring him.  You don't get 15 $/ hour simply for working, your work must produce at least $15.01 in value to jusify paying your wage, or else an employer is better off firing you.



Makes sense in principle.  But how much does a janitor earn for their company?  Or a security guard?  Or a driver?  Not as simple as it sounds.  People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position.  Management has to decide if the company as a whole wants to support certain positions, even if those positions bring in no direct revenue.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21733196 - 05/28/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position.



these are the same things.

Quote:

Management has to decide if the company as a whole wants to support certain positions, even if those positions bring in no direct revenue.



all positions bring value to the company. Maybe not directly quantifiable revenue like a salesperson, but they all bring a monetary value. If a company is profitable that means what the employees bring in is greater than what they are paid, making the min wage $15 will not suddenly make the productivity of all employees go up to justify it.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21733270 - 05/28/15 04:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position.



these are the same things.



These aren't even close to the same thing.  A fast food cook will make no more than $15 an hour no matter how much food he cooks for his employer.  If he has a good weekend and cooks a few thousand dollars in food, his pay won't change.

Quote:

psyconaught said:
all positions bring value to the company. Maybe not directly quantifiable revenue like a salesperson, but they all bring a monetary value. If a company is profitable that means what the employees bring in is greater than what they are paid



Not even close to true.  If a company is highly profitable, it might choose to provide free breakfasts for everyone.  Are the cooks making money for the company, or just spending it?

Quote:

psyconaught said:
making the min wage $15 will not suddenly make the productivity of all employees go up to justify it.



And so providing breakfast for all employees will not suddenly make their productivity go up either, correct?  It's just something a company may choose to do if it has the money.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21733303 - 05/28/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21733390 - 05/28/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory



I believe that supports what I'm saying.  If I work at a fast food restaurant making $10/hour, knowing that my peers at other fast food restaurants are also making $10/hr, then I'll feel a lot better about it.  However, I'll also feel upset if I'm brining in a lot more than what I'm earning.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21733443 - 05/28/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

yup.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins] * 1
    #21733766 - 05/28/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall. 

Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?




What's "sworkung"?  Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society.  I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality.  Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.




In that case I would quit my job and never work again.  Simply existing does not entitle you to free money.  That s not the way of nature, every living being needs to work to survive.  Those who adapt well prosper, and those who do not adapt go extinct.  There us no way around it.





You just committed the naturalistic fallacy.  You say that just because that's the way things are in nature, that's how they should be.  No.  In nature, yes, people who don't work (or can't) die off.  But that's not how we should aspire to as an ethical society.  In our ethical, civilized society, the weaker and more helpless portion of our population gets taken care of.  Same reason why we have welfare and disability benefits.  I mean, you don't want to see disabled folks die off on the streets, do you?

Quote:


How exactly do you propose we supply all these humans with all that stuff?  Someone has to work to provide goods and services, those people will basically be slaves to provide all that stuff.




We are getting ahead of ourselves here.  My aim right now is to help only those within the boundaries of our nations (nations in the West).  Right now we can't help people in other countries (yet!) but it is indeed something we should be aiming for.  Also, people who provide all the goods and services will not become slaves, because we will pay them, and pay them well.  But I don't think we are talking about the same thing here.  I am not advocating that we simply hand to people everything they could possibly want.  I am proposing a world, where most people still work, but  those who aren't coping should be guaranteed the most basic, barest minimum standards of life.  This isn't too much to ask.


Edited by WAN (05/28/15 06:55 PM)


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21734029 - 05/28/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Let's not forget that if that person doesn't earn a living wage from their employer then they will be dependent on government handouts. I don't want to see the government subsidizing wages of private businesses in that way.



i think this is only true if people make bad decisions. I know plenty of people who have more than survived on min wage because they make good choices, don't have kids, room with lots of people, etc.




That's an over simplification. While bad decisions can (and often are) a big factor in a person's socioeconomic status, it can also have no effect at all. I know plenty of people who have difficulty providing for themselves and their family as the result of untimely death, illness, and/or injury.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734036 - 05/28/15 08:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.




So you believe the sick and/or injured do not deserve to live?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21734368 - 05/28/15 09:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Shins said:
An employee MUST produce a greater profit for an employer than he pays him in wages, or else there is no point hiring him.  You don't get 15 $/ hour simply for working, your work must produce at least $15.01 in value to jusify paying your wage, or else an employer is better off firing you.



Makes sense in principle.  But how much does a janitor earn for their company?  Or a security guard?  Or a driver?  Not as simple as it sounds.  People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position.  Management has to decide if the company as a whole wants to support certain positions, even if those positions bring in no direct revenue.





Assuming you are right ( which you are not) the market rate for that position is based on what those employees produce. "market rate" is price discovery, prices are a reflection of value.

anyways, you have obviously never owned a business and have rarely worked in the private sector.  Government jobs are often based on market rates, but in the real world, a business has to balance assets and liabilities, this is very basic accounting.  If an employee is a liability, then they are detrimental to a business and deserve to be fired.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734520 - 05/28/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position.



Assuming you are right ( which you are not) the market rate for that position is based on what those employees produce.



So what you're telling me is that if I work for a fast food restaurant that takes in twice as much business as similar restaurants, and if I cook twice as much food, I'll be paid twice as much?  And that if I work on a holiday where sales are through the roof I will quadruple my salary for that day???

I once had a job as a contract negotiator, where I negotiated a $190 million increase to a firm fixed price contract with the US Postal Service.  Did I earn millions for that?  No, I got a pat on the back and a nominal raise at the end of the year.

Sounds to me like you have never worked in the private sector.

Quote:

Shins said:
If an employee is a liability, then they are detrimental to a business and deserve to be fired.



Of course I agree with you, but that's another topic.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21734719 - 05/28/15 10:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory



I believe that supports what I'm saying.  If I work at a fast food restaurant making $10/hour, knowing that my peers at other fast food restaurants are also making $10/hr, then I'll feel a lot better about it.  However, I'll also feel upset if I'm brining in a lot more than what I'm earning.





If You feel you are bringing in a lot more than you are earning, you would be wise to demonstrate ot to other employers whom would be wise to pay you more.


--------------------
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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: WAN]
    #21734739 - 05/28/15 10:42 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory



I believe that supports what I'm saying.  If I work at a fast food restaurant making $10/hour, knowing that my peers at other fast food restaurants are also making $10/hr, then I'll feel a lot better about it.  However, I'll also feel upset if I'm brining in a lot more than what I'm earning.





If You feel you are bringing in a lot more than you are earning, you would be wise to demonstrate ot to other employers whom would be wise to pay you more. 
Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall. 

Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?




What's "sworkung"?  Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society.  I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality.  Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.




In that case I would quit my job and never work again.  Simply existing does not entitle you to free money.  That s not the way of nature, every living being needs to work to survive.  Those who adapt well prosper, and those who do not adapt go extinct.  There us no way around it.





You just committed the naturalistic fallacy.  You say that just because that's the way things are in nature, that's how they should be.  No.  In nature, yes, people who don't work (or can't) die off.  But that's not how we should aspire to as an ethical society.  In our ethical, civilized society, the weaker and more helpless portion of our population gets taken care of.  Same reason why we have welfare and disability benefits.  I mean, you don't want to see disabled folks die off on the streets, do you?

Quote:


How exactly do you propose we supply all these humans with all that stuff?  Someone has to work to provide goods and services, those people will basically be slaves to provide all that stuff.




We are getting ahead of ourselves here.  My aim right now is to help only those within the boundaries of our nations (nations in the West).  Right now we can't help people in other countries (yet!) but it is indeed something we should be aiming for.  Also, people who provide all the goods and services will not become slaves, because we will pay them, and pay them well.  But I don't think we are talking about the same thing here.  I am not advocating that we simply hand to people everything they could possibly want.  I am proposing a world, where most people still work, but  those who aren't coping should be guaranteed the most basic, barest minimum standards of life.  This isn't too much to ask.





Interesting,  do You also fart rainbows?  I share your desires with my heart, but when I use my brain I realize that it is merely a fantasy, a fiction.  I don't like it either, but the cold hard facts of reality conflict with your imaginary utopia.


--------------------
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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21734753 - 05/28/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.




So you believe the sick and/or injured do not deserve to live?




Not true.  I object to the idea that I am to be forced to be responsible for their well being.

charity is ethical, extortion is not.  Its as simple as that.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734769 - 05/28/15 10:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

There is only one difference between a bad economist and a good one: the bad economist confines himself to the visible effect; the good economist takes into account both the effect that can be seen and those effects that must be foreseen.

1.3
Yet this difference is tremendous; for it almost always happens that when the immediate consequence is favorable, the later consequences are disastrous, and vice versa. Whence it follows that the bad economist pursues a small present good that will be followed by a great evil to come, while the good economist pursues a great good to come, at the risk of a small present evil.

1.4
The same thing, of course, is true of health and morals. Often, the sweeter the first fruit of a habit, the more bitter are its later fruits: for example, debauchery, sloth, prodigality. When a man is impressed by the effect that is seen and has not yet learned to discern the effects that are not seen, he indulges in deplorable habits, not only through natural inclination, but deliberately.

1.5
This explains man's necessarily painful evolution. Ignorance surrounds him at his cradle; therefore, he regulates his acts according to their first consequences, the only ones that, in his infancy, he can see. It is only after a long time that he learns to take account of the others.**2 Two very different masters teach him this lesson: experience and foresight. Experience teaches efficaciously but brutally. It instructs us in all the effects of an act by making us feel them, and we cannot fail to learn eventually, from having been burned ourselves, that fire burns. I should prefer, in so far as possible, to replace this rude teacher with one more gentle: foresight. For that reason I shall investigate the consequences of several economic phenomena, contrasting those that are seen with those that are not seen.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734786 - 05/28/15 10:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.




So you believe the sick and/or injured do not deserve to live?




Not true.  I object to the idea that I am to be forced to be responsible for their well being.

charity is ethical, extortion is not.  Its as simple as that.




You said "If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live."

Do you stand by that statement? If so, it seems that you are saying those who are sick and injured to the point that they cannot work do not deserve to live.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734850 - 05/28/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

WAN said:
I am not advocating that we simply hand to people everything they could possibly want.  I am proposing a world, where most people still work, but  those who aren't coping should be guaranteed the most basic, barest minimum standards of life.  This isn't too much to ask.



Interesting,  do You also fart rainbows?  I share your desires with my heart, but when I use my brain I realize that it is merely a fantasy, a fiction.



It appears to be the opposite.  Your brain should show you that other countries have already proven this possible, but it's not in your heart to do it.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21734888 - 05/28/15 11:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.




So you believe the sick and/or injured do not deserve to live?




Not true.  I object to the idea that I am to be forced to be responsible for their well being.

charity is ethical, extortion is not.  Its as simple as that.




You said "If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live."

Do you stand by that statement? If so, it seems that you are saying those who are sick and injured to the point that they cannot work do not deserve to live.





What happens to suxh and injured animals in the wild?  From a naturalistic perspective,  yes they deserve to die, its the way of the wild, I did not make the rules, I'm simply relayingy observations

Now even though in nature they would die, it might be in our power to prevent it.  Ibthink everyone should help support those people voluntarily.  I object to enploying the violent, coercive, and ultimately deadly force of the state to extort people.  Not only is that immoral,  but it is highly dangerous.  Out of control governments that haveattained too much power are and even greater threat to humanity than starvation!


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734901 - 05/28/15 11:16 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'd also like to add that I lived for two years on about 5k /year.  I was broke as fuck, but I lived.  If I can do it, ehy can't other people?  I foraged and hunted for many of my meals.  If starving people cannot do the same, they have not earned to right to inhabit this world.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21738132 - 05/29/15 07:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
What happens to suxh and injured animals in the wild?  From a naturalistic perspective,  yes they deserve to die, its the way of the wild, I did not make the rules, I'm simply relayingy observations




We are not animals in the wild and it is in our best interest to support and enable people to better themselves as opposed to letting them die. Letting them die burdens our medical and legal systems, while also being (arguably) immoral and inhumane.

Quote:


I object to enploying the violent, coercive, and ultimately deadly force of the state to extort people.  Not only is that immoral,  but it is highly dangerous.




Can you provide an example of the government using deadly force to extort money from its citizens?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21738156 - 05/29/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

No more than the earth can provide per capita.  Thats about 15k a year worth of resources for a family of four in an average US city.  Roughly half the world lives (lives, not starves) on less resources than that.

There is not enough resources in the world for every person to have their own apartment, car, electricity and running water.  Not even close.  The idea that these things are needed to "live" is a twisted lack of perspective that could only come from the richest people that have ever lived.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21738203 - 05/29/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
No more than the earth can provide per capita.  Thats about 15k a year worth of resources for a family of four in an average US city.  Roughly half the world lives (lives, not starves) on less resources than that.




Where are you getting that number, is it based on current population numbers? There could be significantly more resources for people if the population was lower and we were more efficient about resource consumption.

Quote:


There is not enough resources in the world for every person to have their own apartment, car, electricity and running water.  Not even close.  The idea that these things are needed to "live" is a twisted lack of perspective that could only come from the richest people that have ever lived.




There are certainly enough resources for everyone to have electricity and running water, especially if we make some changes about the way we live (like eating less meat). Apartments push the line, but you are definitely right about cars. And again, it depends on where global population stabilizes.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21738487 - 05/29/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

well, not to turn this into an overpopulation debate, but we don't actually know how many "resources" there are in the world.  new "resources" are discovered and exploited all the time.  Sometimes, previously unexploitable "resources" become exploitable through advances in technology.  So, any claim, made by anybody, about a deficit of "resources" in the world is just numbers out of someone's ass.  500 years ago, there was a shocking lack of metallic aluminum in the world.  Advances in technology eventually made all of the readily abundant aluminum oxide available for use as a "resource".  Now, whether there actually is enough of EVERYTHING to go around, i don't know, and wouldn't claim to.  However, there is certainly enough for everyone in this country(usa) to have running water, electricity, housing, food, clothing, and even a little entertainment.


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OfflineWAN
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21738849 - 05/29/15 10:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall. 

Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?




What's "sworkung"?  Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society.  I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality.  Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.




In that case I would quit my job and never work again.  Simply existing does not entitle you to free money.  That s not the way of nature, every living being needs to work to survive.  Those who adapt well prosper, and those who do not adapt go extinct.  There us no way around it.





You just committed the naturalistic fallacy.  You say that just because that's the way things are in nature, that's how they should be.  No.  In nature, yes, people who don't work (or can't) die off.  But that's not how we should aspire to as an ethical society.  In our ethical, civilized society, the weaker and more helpless portion of our population gets taken care of.  Same reason why we have welfare and disability benefits.  I mean, you don't want to see disabled folks die off on the streets, do you?

Quote:


How exactly do you propose we supply all these humans with all that stuff?  Someone has to work to provide goods and services, those people will basically be slaves to provide all that stuff.




We are getting ahead of ourselves here.  My aim right now is to help only those within the boundaries of our nations (nations in the West).  Right now we can't help people in other countries (yet!) but it is indeed something we should be aiming for.  Also, people who provide all the goods and services will not become slaves, because we will pay them, and pay them well.  But I don't think we are talking about the same thing here.  I am not advocating that we simply hand to people everything they could possibly want.  I am proposing a world, where most people still work, but  those who aren't coping should be guaranteed the most basic, barest minimum standards of life.  This isn't too much to ask.




Quote:


Interesting,  do You also fart rainbows?  I share your desires with my heart, but when I use my brain I realize that it is merely a fantasy, a fiction.  I don't like it either, but the cold hard facts of reality conflict with your imaginary utopia.




Social innovation isn't the "farting out of rainbows", nor is helping out fellow humans in need a fantasy.  In fact, ask the  millions of Americans receiving social security.  I bet you they don't think their benefits are the farting out of rainbows.


Edited by WAN (05/29/15 10:02 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21739933 - 05/30/15 06:48 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
There is not enough resources in the world for every person to have their own apartment, car, electricity and running water.  Not even close.  The idea that these things are needed to "live" is a twisted lack of perspective that could only come from the richest people that have ever lived.




Based on what evidence?


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21740022 - 05/30/15 07:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Lets do a little math and figure it out.  We will use values easily found on the internet.

First, consider a study like this: Link.  I have seen statistics like this my whole life and they are usually around the same number.  The average american lifestyle would take between 4 and 5 earths to support everyone on the planet.  Lets call it 4 for ease.

Now lets find the average american income: Link  Just over 50k per household.  Ill use 50k for ease. 

But how many people are in the household? Link  2.5, that is less than I thought.

So what is a sustainable amount of resources given our current level of resource exploitation?  That would be resources consumed (in dollars) divided by both people per household and earths required (to normalize it to one person on one earth).  50,000/(2.5*4) = 5,000  Now we have a dollar amount of what the earth can provide each person.  5k worth of resources as they would cost in an average US city per year.

What kind of city is that?  Link  Looking for one that is close to a hundred, I see Columbia, SC and Phoenix, AZ as typical cities.  I don't think that you can have an apartment to yourself, a running car, electricity and running water in either of those cities off of 5k a year.  That lifestyle is unsustainable and always has been.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21740031 - 05/30/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:


There is not enough resources in the world for every person to have their own apartment, car, electricity and running water.  Not even close.  The idea that these things are needed to "live" is a twisted lack of perspective that could only come from the richest people that have ever lived.




There are certainly enough resources for everyone to have electricity and running water, especially if we make some changes about the way we live (like eating less meat). Apartments push the line, but you are definitely right about cars. And again, it depends on where global population stabilizes.




How can you have electricity if you cant afford an apartment?  An apartment consumes more resources over its lifetime (in construction, maintenance and demolition) than a car does.  Look at the dollar costs of each as a rough guide to their environmental impact.  To a first order approximation, the more dollars it cost the more resources it consumes.



A living wage... It need not be more than a tent for a couple people, clothes suitable for the climate and weather, a source of potable water within walking distance, 2 meals of some staple cereal with a little fruit, veg and meat on the side and a means to dispose of human waste safely.  Anything more than that is more than a "living wage", its a "standard of living wage" where that standard is made up from the life experience and expectations of the person living it, not biological need or ecological availability.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #21740202 - 05/30/15 08:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A living wage... It need not be more than a tent for a couple people, clothes suitable for the climate and weather, a source of potable water within walking distance, 2 meals of some staple cereal with a little fruit, veg and meat on the side and a means to dispose of human waste safely.  Anything more than that is more than a "living wage", its a "standard of living wage" where that standard is made up from the life experience and expectations of the person living it, not biological need or ecological availability.




great semantic argument.  But unless you are suggesting that the standard of living in the US be reduced to that of say, Nigeria, i don't see your point.

Quote:


Lets do a little math and figure it out.  We will use values easily found on the internet.





Quote:

ballsalsa said:
well, not to turn this into an overpopulation debate, but we don't actually know how many "resources" there are in the world.  new "resources" are discovered and exploited all the time.  Sometimes, previously unexploitable "resources" become exploitable through advances in technology.  So, any claim, made by anybody, about a deficit of "resources" in the world is just numbers out of someone's ass. 




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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21741444 - 05/30/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
How can you have electricity if you cant afford an apartment? 




By splitting an apartment with multiple people.

Quote:

An apartment consumes more resources over its lifetime (in construction, maintenance and demolition) than a car does. 




An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?


Quote:

A living wage... It need not be more than a tent for a couple people, clothes suitable for the climate and weather, a source of potable water within walking distance, 2 meals of some staple cereal with a little fruit, veg and meat on the side and a means to dispose of human waste safely.




Meat has an enormous carbon footprint. The two biggest easy changes that a person can make is to stop driving cars and stop eating meat.

Quote:


Anything more than that is more than a "living wage", its a "standard of living wage" where that standard is made up from the life experience and expectations of the person living it, not biological need or ecological availability.




So if you were in charge of setting a "living wage," would you set it lower than the current minimum wage?


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21741465 - 05/30/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

An apartment consumes more resources over its lifetime (in construction, maintenance and demolition) than a car does. 



i'd be interested if anyone has measured this. I'd bet the car consumes more resources than an apartment would.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21742190 - 05/30/15 06:45 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So basically the commie dingbats believe a living wage is whatever any irresponsible idiot needs to support his her family.  I think we need to set the minimum wage at a level sufficient to support the Duggars.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21743038 - 05/30/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

i don't know what the minimum wage should be, but i do know that if joe blow has some more money, he's gonna spend it.  Let me give you an example:
I was a plumber for 11 years.  I learned a lot of cross trade shit, because thats just what happens.  If i made a little more money, i could afford to hire a professional to set tile, or do drywall repair, or build me a shed, or any of the other things that i do myself because i can't afford to hire someone.  Think about that. at least in the trades, think how much of a benefit it would be for all of those contractors. sure, it would cost more directly to each business owner in labor costs.  But if you get off-setting new business, whats the problem?


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21743455 - 05/31/15 01:06 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think we need to set the minimum wage at a level sufficient to support the Duggars.



If you can convince the majority of the population that's what it should be, then we just might see it happen (although I seriously doubt the majority would ever agree).


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21744296 - 05/31/15 10:03 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

First, consider a study like this: Link.  I have seen statistics like this my whole life and they are usually around the same number.  The average american lifestyle would take between 4 and 5 earths to support everyone on the planet.  Lets call it 4 for ease.





First, water, electricity, and an apartment is not an average American lifestyle. Shit, there are homeless people with the first two. Second, living the basic lifestyle you initially described wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as $50k.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21744421 - 05/31/15 11:04 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

A living wage... It need not be more than a tent for a couple people, clothes suitable for the climate and weather, a source of potable water within walking distance, 2 meals of some staple cereal with a little fruit, veg and meat on the side and a means to dispose of human waste safely.  Anything more than that is more than a "living wage", its a "standard of living wage" where that standard is made up from the life experience and expectations of the person living it, not biological need or ecological availability.




great semantic argument.  But unless you are suggesting that the standard of living in the US be reduced to that of say, Nigeria, i don't see your point.






The point isn't about your concept of a standard of living.  Its about a living wage.  The US standard of living is far above a living wage.  You are so far above it that you think a living wage is the poverty of Nigeria.  Its not.

This devalidates any attempt to raise the US minimum wage based on "living wage" arguments.  An attempt to raise the US minimum wage can only be based on "standard of living" expectations.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21744451 - 05/31/15 11:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?




Much less than an apartment averaged over each's lifetime.  Depends on your apartment and how much you drive I guess.



Quote:

BoldAsLove said:So if you were in charge of setting a "living wage," would you set it lower than the current minimum wage?




Nobody can set a living wage.  The needs of a human to live are defined by our biology, not our society or opinions.  I am not in favor of raising the "minimum wage" for the reasons I mentioned.  Its not environmentally sustainable to expect the top 10% richest people on the planet to consume even more resources.  Its nationalist bigotry to think that an unskilled American worker somehow deserves more than the earth can support per capita which necessarily means an unskilled non-American worker must consume less than the earth can support per capita.


The extra irony to me is that the same people who want minimum wage workers to consume more resources are the usually the ones who oppose fracking, conventional farming, etc.  Where do they think this vast expectation of consumption to come from?  They don't care and they don't actually think about the negative consequences of their ideas.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21744459 - 05/31/15 11:15 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

First, consider a study like this: Link.  I have seen statistics like this my whole life and they are usually around the same number.  The average american lifestyle would take between 4 and 5 earths to support everyone on the planet.  Lets call it 4 for ease.





First, water, electricity, and an apartment is not an average American lifestyle. Shit, there are homeless people with the first two. Second, living the basic lifestyle you initially described wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as $50k.




The average american lifestyle is 50k worth of resources for 2.5 people in an average city.  The basic lifestyle I describe is below that.  The vast majority of humanity consumes far less than that.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21744933 - 05/31/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

First, consider a study like this: Link.  I have seen statistics like this my whole life and they are usually around the same number.  The average american lifestyle would take between 4 and 5 earths to support everyone on the planet.  Lets call it 4 for ease.





First, water, electricity, and an apartment is not an average American lifestyle. Shit, there are homeless people with the first two. Second, living the basic lifestyle you initially described wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as $50k.




The average american lifestyle is 50k worth of resources for 2.5 people in an average city.  The basic lifestyle I describe is below that.  The vast majority of humanity consumes far less than that.




Then where's the evidence that every family in the world having an apartment, electricity, water, and transportation is unsustainable?


--------------------


Edited by The Ecstatic (05/31/15 02:15 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21745040 - 05/31/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
i don't know what the minimum wage should be, but i do know that if joe blow has some more money, he's gonna spend it.  Let me give you an example:
I was a plumber for 11 years.  I learned a lot of cross trade shit, because thats just what happens.  If i made a little more money, i could afford to hire a professional to set tile, or do drywall repair, or build me a shed, or any of the other things that i do myself because i can't afford to hire someone.  Think about that. at least in the trades, think how much of a benefit it would be for all of those contractors. sure, it would cost more directly to each business owner in labor costs.  But if you get off-setting new business, whats the problem?




You aren't the one who is paying the tile guy, the homeowner is, and you fucked up your bid if it isn't cheaper for you to hire a tile specialist who knows what he is doing rather than having a jackoff of all trades doing it.

By the way plumbers around here, especially licensed ones, make sweet bank.

Overpaying someone on the premise that they will thus spend more money is such an incredibly idiotic argument that it makes my hair hurt.  Where does this justification end?  You are just shuffling money from what the market deems useful workers to people it does not.  No net gain.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21745347 - 05/31/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?




Much less than an apartment averaged over each's lifetime.  Depends on your apartment and how much you drive I guess.





Do you have any evidence for this? I would estimate that a car uses far more resources to produce and use.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21745425 - 05/31/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
i don't know what the minimum wage should be, but i do know that if joe blow has some more money, he's gonna spend it.  Let me give you an example:
I was a plumber for 11 years.  I learned a lot of cross trade shit, because thats just what happens.  If i made a little more money, i could afford to hire a professional to set tile, or do drywall repair, or build me a shed, or any of the other things that i do myself because i can't afford to hire someone.  Think about that. at least in the trades, think how much of a benefit it would be for all of those contractors. sure, it would cost more directly to each business owner in labor costs.  But if you get off-setting new business, whats the problem?




You aren't the one who is paying the tile guy, the homeowner is, and you fucked up your bid if it isn't cheaper for you to hire a tile specialist who knows what he is doing rather than having a jackoff of all trades doing it.

By the way plumbers around here, especially licensed ones, make sweet bank.

Overpaying someone on the premise that they will thus spend more money is such an incredibly idiotic argument that it makes my hair hurt.  Where does this justification end?  You are just shuffling money from what the market deems useful workers to people it does not.  No net gain.





i should have been more clear.  i meant hiring professionals for my own work, like on my house.  Of course, i'f i'm selling someone a professional job, i'm going to hire sub out to a professional, and simply charge the homeowner.

As for plumbers making a lot of money....they do, if they are the boss, or in the union.  However, where i live there is a depressed labor market in the trades because of so many illegal aliens.  It's to the point where there's no way i could hire someone do  work on my place.  I actually got in the union up in santa barbara, but literally never got any work out of it.  good luck getting in the union around L.A. unless you have a name that ends in Z (gonzalez, lopez, etc.)


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21745739 - 05/31/15 06:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Don't even get me started on how illegals have fucked wages for construction workers.  Even here.  Out out out,


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21746053 - 05/31/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Then where's the evidence that every family in the world having an apartment, electricity, water, and transportation is unsustainable?



It's way beyond unsustainable.  It would require energy output to increase at least 100 fold.  The current energy output of the world is only sustainable by the widespread use of coal, but try pulling that off x 100.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
    #21746294 - 05/31/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Then where's the evidence that every family in the world having an apartment, electricity, water, and transportation is unsustainable?



It's way beyond unsustainable.  It would require energy output to increase at least 100 fold.  The current energy output of the world is only sustainable by the widespread use of coal, but try pulling that off x 100.




Thats a defeatist attitude.  There is energy literally everywhere.  It's just a matter of harnessing it.  Every chemical bond=energy.  EM radiation=energy. kinetic motion of matter=energy.  heat=energy.  hell, mass=energy. We can isolate anti-matter now.  electron/positron interactions annihilate and yield 100% of mass as energy. Its there, we just have to step up and figure out how to use it.  I have great faith in man's ability to innovate, especially in this field.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746349 - 05/31/15 09:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Its there, we just have to step up and figure out how to use it.  I have great faith in man's ability to innovate, especially in this field.



I live in the world of today.  Today, it's unsustainable.  If a new technology is invented that eliminates the fundamental problem of energy scarcity, I'm all for it.  Right now, however, that's not the world we live in.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
    #21746398 - 05/31/15 09:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe not, but you'll live to see it, unless you're a lot older than i think you are

on a related note, google methane ice.  that shit is literally everywhere(on the bottom of the ocean). kinda scares me actually, because of how much fossil carbon it represents.  plus, with a supply like that, there might not be enough impetus to innovate for a long time


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Edited by ballsalsa (05/31/15 09:23 PM)


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746419 - 05/31/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I doubt it'll happen in my lifetime.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
    #21746435 - 05/31/15 09:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

i'm telling you that matter/antimatter reactors aren't that far away!  the hardest part is isolating and containing the antimatter, and that's already been done on a small scale.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746443 - 05/31/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I know what you're telling me.  I'm telling you that you're wrong and that the technology won't be usable for many decades if at all.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746490 - 05/31/15 09:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Then where's the evidence that every family in the world having an apartment, electricity, water, and transportation is unsustainable?



It's way beyond unsustainable.  It would require energy output to increase at least 100 fold.  The current energy output of the world is only sustainable by the widespread use of coal, but try pulling that off x 100.




Thats a defeatist attitude.  There is energy literally everywhere.  It's just a matter of harnessing it.  Every chemical bond=energy.




No, or at least not if you mean usable energy. How are you going to make energy from the bonds in carbon dioxide, for example?  Give me the reaction you'd use to exploit this as an energy source.


 
Quote:

EM radiation=energy. kinetic motion of matter=energy.  heat=energy.  hell, mass=energy. We can isolate anti-matter now.  electron/positron interactions annihilate and yield 100% of mass as energy. Its there, we just have to step up and figure out how to use it.  I have great faith in man's ability to innovate, especially in this field.




Exactly, you have faith. You have no idea how to actually accomplish any of this, but you have faith that someone else will.  Great. I'd rather listen to a jesus freak, at least they have some books to back up what they say.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
    #21746505 - 05/31/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

A man can dream, can't he? :tongue:


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746525 - 05/31/15 09:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, but I think its reckless to suggest to others that relying on said dream is a reasonable course of action.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746532 - 05/31/15 09:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How are you going to make energy from the bonds in carbon dioxide, for example?




i don't know, but if i was researching it, i would probably start here:
6CO2+12H2O----->C6H12O6+6O2+6H2O


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21746619 - 05/31/15 10:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

no quick answer for that one john?

don't bother googling it, thats the formula for photosynthesis.

why you wanna fuck with me john? you don't like my Jesus quote?  It's good advice in that quote john.  It's an allegory.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746780 - 05/31/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

How are you going to make energy from the bonds in carbon dioxide, for example?




i don't know, but if i was researching it, i would probably start here:
6CO2+12H2O----->C6H12O6+6O2+6H2O




Ok, so that's where you started. Now what?  That reaction is not spontaneous under atmospheric conditions, so how is that a source of energy?


Quote:

ballsalsa said:
no quick answer for that one john?

don't bother googling it, thats the formula for photosynthesis.




Thank you for educating me on this


Quote:

why you wanna fuck with me john? you don't like my Jesus quote?  It's good advice in that quote john.  It's an allegory.




I think your faith is harmful and you should reconsider it. I don't want to fuck with you and the jesus refrence wasn't in regards to your signature. I don't think you should promote something as a solution if you don't actually know it to be one.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21746798 - 05/31/15 11:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either...but it is a source of stored chemical energy that we release clumsily through combustion.

In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP. 

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746920 - 06/01/15 12:10 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either




yes it is

Quote:


In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP.




And guess what, all of those do the reaction you just suggested in precisely the reverse direction.  Guess why?

You've still not shown how carbon dioxide's chemical bonds can be used to produce energy for our economy. Let's hear it.
 

Quote:

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly




Where did I assert that? I simply said you don't know how these things can be used to produce energy for our economy so you shouldn't claim that they can. Whether you personally are involved is irrelevant.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21748052 - 06/01/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either




yes it is

Quote:


In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP.




And guess what, all of those do the reaction you just suggested in precisely the reverse direction.  Guess why?

You've still not shown how carbon dioxide's chemical bonds can be used to produce energy for our economy. Let's hear it.
 

Quote:

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly




Where did I assert that? I simply said you don't know how these things can be used to produce energy for our economy so you shouldn't claim that they can. Whether you personally are involved is irrelevant.





No, it isn't.  Combustion requires input energy(an ignition source)  Just like how photosynthesis requires input energy(EM radiation in the visible spectrum)

I don't have to guess, those reactions take the glucose produced in photosynthesis and make ATP out of it, which has a bond broken in mitochondria, and becomes ADP, releasing energy that the cell then uses...then the ADP gets another phosphate stuck onto it to become ATP again, rinse and repeat...

As for deriving energy from CO2, that was your proposition, not mine, but a good straw man, nonetheless.

And, finally, matter/antimatter.  It's not rocket science(ha ha ha) i'll link you some stuff, and you can read it on your own.

http://space.about.com/od/Space-and-Astronomy-Star-Trek/a/Matter-Antimatter-Power.htm

http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/home/antimatter_spaceship.html

http://www.positronannihilation.net/

it's been real, you can head back to  Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology now.


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Edited by ballsalsa (06/01/15 11:41 AM)


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21748082 - 06/01/15 11:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

How are you going to make energy from the bonds in carbon dioxide, for example?




i don't know, but if i was researching it, i would probably start here:
6CO2+12H2O----->C6H12O6+6O2+6H2O





While it is admirable to look for new ways of producing energy, we have to be reasonable about which areas to focus our efforts on. Photosynthesis is abysmal in terms of efficiency, ranging from about 3-6% (source). Photovoltaics on the other hand, can harness the energy at approximately 45% (source).

Again, it is certainly helpful to look for new energy sources, but believing that there is a presently untapped, easy to access energy source that provides bountiful energy with relatively little demerits is nothing more than Panglossian optimism. It will take an enormous amount of work and ingenuity to solve this problem.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21748332 - 06/01/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either




yes it is

Quote:


In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP.




And guess what, all of those do the reaction you just suggested in precisely the reverse direction.  Guess why?

You've still not shown how carbon dioxide's chemical bonds can be used to produce energy for our economy. Let's hear it.
 

Quote:

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly




Where did I assert that? I simply said you don't know how these things can be used to produce energy for our economy so you shouldn't claim that they can. Whether you personally are involved is irrelevant.





No, it isn't.  Combustion requires input energy(an ignition source)  Just like how photosynthesis requires input energy(EM radiation in the visible spectrum)




No, that reaction of gasoline with oxygen does not require energy input. You are conflating themodynamics with kinetics. That the reaction does not proceed at an appreciable rate at room temperature does not mean it isn't spontaneous, it means it is slow at room temperature. This is a function of the mechanism of the reaction rather than the thermodynamic relationship between reactant and product.







Quote:



I don't have to guess, those reactions take the glucose produced in photosynthesis and make ATP out of it, which has a bond broken in mitochondria, and becomes ADP, releasing energy that the cell then uses...then the ADP gets another phosphate stuck onto it to become ATP again, rinse and repeat




How is this responsive? I asked you why all the examples you provided proceeded in precisely the opposite direction that you said you'd use to produce energy. You haven't provided the answer, which is because the oxidation of gluocse is spontaneous, the product of it from carbon dioxide is not. Hence, organisms use the former to produce energy, not the later.

So again, how are you going to be using carbon dioxide to produce energy for our economy out of its chemical bonds?
...
Quote:


As for deriving energy from CO2, that was your proposition, not mine, but a good straw man, nonetheless.





I didn't propose it, I said you were wrong that every chemical bond is sources of energy that can be used and cited carbon dioxide as a counterexample. Please explain how utilizing carbon dioxide's chemical energy is not fairly within the claim of yours which I challenged.


Quote:


And, finally, matter/antimatter.  It's not rocket science(ha ha ha) i'll link you some stuff, and you can read it on your own.





Why should I read those links? You've not even proposed any connection to the topic here, let alone put forth an argument.


Quote:

BoldAsLove said:



While it is admirable to look for new ways of producing energy, we have to be reasonable about which areas to focus our efforts on. Photosynthesis is abysmal in terms of efficiency, ranging from about 3-6% (source). Photovoltaics on the other hand, can harness the energy at approximately 45% (source).




It's also not responsive to my challenge. The production of glucose from carbon dioxide is energy intensive, he's yet to show how the chemical bonds in carbon dioxide can be used as an energy source.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21748390 - 06/01/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?




Much less than an apartment averaged over each's lifetime.  Depends on your apartment and how much you drive I guess.





Do you have any evidence for this? I would estimate that a car uses far more resources to produce and use.





Then why does the construction of one apartment cost more than the construction of one car?  It costs far more to construct, maintain and decommission an apartment over its life time than a car (with each normalized to their lifetime).  To a first approximation the amount of resources something consumes scales linearly with the dollars it costs.  100k to buy an apartment vs 20k to buy a car.  I estimate that the apartment consumes roughly 5 times as much resources in its construction than the car.  Now it depends on how much you drive your car and how well you keep up your apartment if that ratio changes over time.  Each take a non-negligible amount of resources to maintain.  The apartment requires more to decommission than the car.  Its hard for me to fathom that on average a car could consume more per year than an apartment, but no I don't have any evidence and I don't have time to look it up.  Do you have any evidence?


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21748418 - 06/01/15 01:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/21/16 01:43 PM)


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21748535 - 06/01/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The fact that some humans need a wage to live is a sad reality.  There is a bounty of food literally growing on trees wile homeless people sit on the street with a feed me sign.  We have ventured too far from our roots, and if we do not find a way back, we are doomed.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21748749 - 06/01/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

We need fusion.  Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.  We are not going to mine uranium from other planets and there is no oil there.  Fusion.  It is the future and it is the past.  If we don't eventually harness it we will be back in caves


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21748761 - 06/01/15 02:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either




yes it is

Quote:


In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP.




And guess what, all of those do the reaction you just suggested in precisely the reverse direction.  Guess why?

You've still not shown how carbon dioxide's chemical bonds can be used to produce energy for our economy. Let's hear it.
 

Quote:

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly




Where did I assert that? I simply said you don't know how these things can be used to produce energy for our economy so you shouldn't claim that they can. Whether you personally are involved is irrelevant.





No, it isn't.  Combustion requires input energy(an ignition source)  Just like how photosynthesis requires input energy(EM radiation in the visible spectrum)




No, that reaction of gasoline with oxygen does not require energy input. You are conflating themodynamics with kinetics. That the reaction does not proceed at an appreciable rate at room temperature does not mean it isn't spontaneous, it means it is slow at room temperature. This is a function of the mechanism of the reaction rather than the thermodynamic relationship between reactant and product.







Quote:



I don't have to guess, those reactions take the glucose produced in photosynthesis and make ATP out of it, which has a bond broken in mitochondria, and becomes ADP, releasing energy that the cell then uses...then the ADP gets another phosphate stuck onto it to become ATP again, rinse and repeat




How is this responsive? I asked you why all the examples you provided proceeded in precisely the opposite direction that you said you'd use to produce energy. You haven't provided the answer, which is because the oxidation of gluocse is spontaneous, the product of it from carbon dioxide is not. Hence, organisms use the former to produce energy, not the later.

So again, how are you going to be using carbon dioxide to produce energy for our economy out of its chemical bonds?
...
Quote:


As for deriving energy from CO2, that was your proposition, not mine, but a good straw man, nonetheless.





I didn't propose it, I said you were wrong that every chemical bond is sources of energy that can be used and cited carbon dioxide as a counterexample. Please explain how utilizing carbon dioxide's chemical energy is not fairly within the claim of yours which I challenged.



Quote:


And, finally, matter/antimatter.  It's not rocket science(ha ha ha) i'll link you some stuff, and you can read it on your own.





Why should I read those links? You've not even proposed any connection to the topic here, let alone put forth an argument.


Quote:

BoldAsLove said:



While it is admirable to look for new ways of producing energy, we have to be reasonable about which areas to focus our efforts on. Photosynthesis is abysmal in terms of efficiency, ranging from about 3-6% (source). Photovoltaics on the other hand, can harness the energy at approximately 45% (source).




It's also not responsive to my challenge. The production of glucose from carbon dioxide is energy intensive, he's yet to show how the chemical bonds in carbon dioxide can be used as an energy source.





I said that energy is everywhere, and cited chemical bonds(in general) as an example(one of many).  I never stated that every energy source is (currently) exploitable(by known means).  Also, chemical energy was only one example cited, along with several others.

You should read those links because they are about interesting science that is related to the field of energy production
I have proposed that antimatter/matter reactions are 100% efficient at converting mass to energy so, yes, they are entirely related to the topic at hand...

Again, not sure what your problem is. i never stated that chemical bond energy is the only option, or even the most desirable one. Only that it exists in abundance.  We have many options currently available other than coal or other fossil fuels.  Some of them seem more promising to me than others.  There are several nuclear options for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine_modular_helium_reactor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_beta_fusion_reactor

There are photovoltaics as mentioned by BoldAsLove (storage is becoming less of an issue these days)

There is wind generation (not sure about reliability?  check out the netherlands)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill

There is tidal generation (reliably constant unless the moon disappears)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power

and i guess i should mention chemical energy too, like vast reserves of frozen CH4 on the ocean floor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate
(don't bother to read the links john, they don't have anything to do with harnessing the chemical bond energy in CO2)


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Edited by ballsalsa (06/01/15 02:27 PM)


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21748778 - 06/01/15 02:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
We need fusion.  Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.  We are not going to mine uranium from other planets and there is no oil there.  Fusion.  It is the future and it is the past.  If we don't eventually harness it we will be back in caves




i like your thinking, but according to john, we shouldn't promote that, because we aren't involved with research in that field


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21748861 - 06/01/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?




Much less than an apartment averaged over each's lifetime.  Depends on your apartment and how much you drive I guess.





Do you have any evidence for this? I would estimate that a car uses far more resources to produce and use.





Then why does the construction of one apartment cost more than the construction of one car?  It costs far more to construct, maintain and decommission an apartment over its life time than a car (with each normalized to their lifetime).  To a first approximation the amount of resources something consumes scales linearly with the dollars it costs.  100k to buy an apartment vs 20k to buy a car.  I estimate that the apartment consumes roughly 5 times as much resources in its construction than the car.  Now it depends on how much you drive your car and how well you keep up your apartment if that ratio changes over time.  Each take a non-negligible amount of resources to maintain.  The apartment requires more to decommission than the car.  Its hard for me to fathom that on average a car could consume more per year than an apartment, but no I don't have any evidence and I don't have time to look it up.  Do you have any evidence?




Resources are not the only driving force behind cost, consider that factors like supply and demand also have a huge effect. Not to mention that cost to construct has no bearing on resources consumed during use.

At this point, were arguing back and forth on a point that neither of us have the answer to. It sounds like you just made an assumption that apartments use more, but if you want to support your point you'll have to provide evidence, not just conjecture.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21749754 - 06/01/15 06:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Balsalsa:

I think what John is saying is that don't count your chickens before they hatch.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21749858 - 06/01/15 06:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/11/16 10:14 AM)


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21754795 - 06/02/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

This topic took an unexpected turn.. :confused:


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21754992 - 06/02/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
And I admitted that a linear approximation is a first order approximation.  That is how all analysis of data have to begin, with a coarse approximation followed by successive tighter approximations.




Actually, all analysis begins with data, then it's followed by correlations.

Quote:


Why did you claim that cars are more resource consumptive than an apartment before I ever brought it up?  I only thought about it because you brought it up with your own point.

Quote:

Apartments push the line, but you are definitely right about cars.
...
I would estimate that a car uses far more resources to produce and use.




It sounds like you just made an assumption that cars use more, but if you want to support your point you'll have to provide evidence, not just conjecture.




That's the difference, I used words like estimate because I don't actually know which one uses more resources, but I estimate it would be the car. You on the other hand, have explicitly stated that apartments use more, and that's the claim that needs to be backed up.

Why do I estimate cars consume more? Well, they aren't particularly efficient for one. They require mining of rare earth metals. They require more upkeep, oil and other fluids, filters, and replacement parts. They can release toxic chemicals into the environment, requiring massive clean up efforts. And so and so forth. But I don't know for sure.

Quote:


So far it looks like I have generally provided more evidence in this thread than everyone else combined.  In keeping with that tradition I will invest a few seconds in a google search. ... This looks good.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2009/08/cars-vs-houses-what-consumes-more-energy/index.htm




As you mention, energy is not a great approximation of resources. It's also worth noting that the energy used in apartments is produced far more efficiently, so even though they use more BTUs, they might actually consume fewer resources.

In the end, it looks like the same picture. We still don't know which one uses more.


--------------------
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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21760413 - 06/04/15 06:14 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
As you mention, energy is not a great approximation of resources.





Why not?  Where is your data or source on this?

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:It's also worth noting that the energy used in apartments is produced far more efficiently, so even though they use more BTUs, they might actually consume fewer resources.




Where do you get that idea?  What kind of efficiency are you talking about?  How much more efficiently is "far more efficiently"?  Also, how do you know that the report didn't take efficiency into account?  I'm skeptical of this claim because the BTUs consumed in the car include losses from converting fossil fuels to usable energy.  The engine is on the car.  Houses and apartments consume electricity that has already undergone losses from conversion from fossil fuels, etc.  But then every device in the home is inefficient too...  There are lots of kinds of efficiency and ways to define it.  Does the heat in a car's brakes count towards it's inefficiency?  Does the heat in a room with no occupants count?

Please link to your sources when you make these claims and I will do the same.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21761293 - 06/04/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
As you mention, energy is not a great approximation of resources.





Why not?  Where is your data or source on this?





A source? This is common knowledge. The amount of energy that cars burn does not account for the resources to produce the cars, the resources used to mine rare earth metals, the resources to transport parts all over the world, the resources to maintain cars, etc. It also doesn't account for how many resources were used to produce the energy.

It is one measure. You said that yourself (see below), and now you're asking me to provide a source because you don't believe your own claim?

Quote:

Mind you this is energy alone, energy is a subset of resources so its not the whole picture.





Quote:


Quote:

BoldAsLove said:It's also worth noting that the energy used in apartments is produced far more efficiently, so even though they use more BTUs, they might actually consume fewer resources.




Where do you get that idea?  What kind of efficiency are you talking about?  How much more efficiently is "far more efficiently"?  Also, how do you know that the report didn't take efficiency into account? 




Seriously? First of all, the energy used in apartments comes from more than just fossil fuels, some of it comes from renewable sources. None of the energy the car burns comes from renewable sources (unless you're talking an electric car).

Second, modern internal combustion engines have a maximum efficiency of 25-30% (source). This means about 3/4 of the energy you produce isn't used to move the car. The energy used in a home, even the stuff that came from a fossil fuel plant, ranges from 33-45% (source). So it takes more resources to make the energy used to move a car, than to make the energy used in an apartment.

Third, not all of the energy used in apartments comes from electricity (with the efficiency numbers above), some if it comes in the form of natural gas or wood heating, which is more efficient when used directly (water heaters, stoves, furnaces, etc.).

Fourth, it's important to keep in mind that apartments are often shared by multiple people, so the energy per capita (which is what really matters in the larger picture of what we're discussing) is lower. Whereas, car rides on average, have less than two people: "We can compare, for instance, the estimated average occupancy rate of about 1.3 passengers per car in the San Francisco Bay Area[12] to the 2006 UK estimated average of 1.58.[13]"(source).

Finally, your report doesn't take efficiency into account. It explicitly says that it reports the total energy consumed. So again, it doesn't report how many resources were used to produce that energy.

Quote:

Please link to your sources when you make these claims and I will do the same.




You haven't yet. As I've repeatedly stated, I don't know which uses more resources (an apartment or a car), nor do I pretend to know. You've made the claim that you do know a number of times and haven't backed it up. It seems to me that you made an assumption without actually knowing the answer.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21772809 - 06/07/15 04:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
I think its really impossible to define a living wage as its dependent on the individual situation. I have friends who's rent is $100 a month because they chose a cheap part of town and roomed with a bunch of people. A "living wage" for an 18 year old not going school and living with a bunch of friends is very different than a living wage for a family of 4.




Also you live in buttfuck nowhere. 100 dollars wont get you a storage locker in most places. A living wage in NYC or Seattle or LA should reflect this vast difference in housing costs. Its impossible to defend the minimum wage where I live unless you think its all high school kids who live with their parents. It's not either its govt subsidized fillipinos. This is what I dont get, you, the taxpayer, are going to pay more for lower minimum wages, do you really care that much about 25 cents being added to your fat food combo?


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: my3rdeye]
    #21773596 - 06/07/15 10:56 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

my3rdeye said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
I think its really impossible to define a living wage as its dependent on the individual situation. I have friends who's rent is $100 a month because they chose a cheap part of town and roomed with a bunch of people. A "living wage" for an 18 year old not going school and living with a bunch of friends is very different than a living wage for a family of 4.




Also you live in buttfuck nowhere. 100 dollars wont get you a storage locker in most places. A living wage in NYC or Seattle or LA should reflect this vast difference in housing costs. Its impossible to defend the minimum wage where I live unless you think its all high school kids who live with their parents. It's not either its govt subsidized fillipinos. This is what I dont get, you, the taxpayer, are going to pay more for lower minimum wages, do you really care that much about 25 cents being added to your fat food combo?





This is a very good point, but you made one mistake.  i'll fix it.

Quote:

you, the taxpayer, are currently paying more for lower minimum wages




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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: my3rdeye]
    #21774528 - 06/07/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

my3rdeye said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
I think its really impossible to define a living wage as its dependent on the individual situation. I have friends who's rent is $100 a month because they chose a cheap part of town and roomed with a bunch of people. A "living wage" for an 18 year old not going school and living with a bunch of friends is very different than a living wage for a family of 4.




Also you live in buttfuck nowhere. 100 dollars wont get you a storage locker in most places.




So what? If you can't afford most places, then don't live most places.

Quote:

A living wage in NYC or Seattle or LA should reflect this vast difference in housing costs.




Yep, but that begs the question of whether anyone is owed a living wage: I doubt that they are.


Quote:

Its impossible to defend the minimum wage where I live unless you think its all high school kids who live with their parents.




Why? I could defend an even lower wage, I bet. If someone can't afford to live there while being paid a given wage then they shouldn't. Unless they were being enticed by entitlements and government subsidies, they likely would figure that out on their own and the market would either find it didn't need them or would start offering higher wages. Either way, situation works out.



Quote:

It's not either its govt subsidized fillipinos. This is what I dont get, you, the taxpayer, are going to pay more for lower minimum wages, do you really care that much about 25 cents being added to your fat food combo?




No, I don't care that much about small increases in price, I care about the people who will be fired and face reduce hours because of your economic engineering. Some kid trying to get out of a shitty situation at home now has to compete w/ looser middle aged people because do-gooders decide they both deserve a living wage. The kid without the car, insurability, or connections of the middle aged person will thus find themselves priced out of the work they could previously get.

As a result, looser middle aged people are subsidized and denied incentive to better themselves and the kid with great potential is denied job opportunities that would allow him to escape the poor environment he found himself in by chance. This is the same process people are facing now: unable to work more hours because employers don't want to pay for ObamaCare.

This is the tragic thing about this social engineering: it has the exact opposite effect people seem to thing: it hurts those most vulnerable.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21776314 - 06/07/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Also you live in buttfuck nowhere



i wouldnt call a 200k population city buttfuck nowhere, but to each his own i guess :shrug: my city is more representative of what the average american goes through than NY or LA.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21776934 - 06/08/15 01:03 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
If you can't afford most places, then don't live most places.



Moving isn't all that cheap or easy, nor is leaving your family and friends.  Plus, if you move somewhere that costs less, you often won't find the same type of work there.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

A living wage in NYC or Seattle or LA should reflect this vast difference in housing costs.



Yep, but that begs the question of whether anyone is owed a living wage: I doubt that they are.



What do you mean by "anyone"?  The question is whether people who work full time should get a living wage.  It's a matter of opinion, but I think in any civilized country they should.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Its impossible to defend the minimum wage where I live unless you think its all high school kids who live with their parents.



If someone can't afford to live there while being paid a given wage then they shouldn't. Unless they were being enticed by entitlements and government subsidies, they likely would figure that out on their own and the market would either find it didn't need them or would start offering higher wages. Either way, situation works out.



I think if someone can't afford to live in a certain place while working full time, their employer should have to pay them more.  We've shown many times in this forum that a higher minimum wage would have almost no impact on employment.

Free markets never pay people what they're worth.  They pay the least they can.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I don't care that much about small increases in price, I care about the people who will be fired and face reduce hours because of your economic engineering.



Evidence has been provided that raising the minimum wage by a massive 40% would only increase unemployment by 0.3%, and over time that extra income would create more spending and thus generate more jobs.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Some kid trying to get out of a shitty situation at home now has to compete w/ looser middle aged people because do-gooders decide they both deserve a living wage. The kid without the car, insurability, or connections of the middle aged person will thus find themselves priced out of the work they could previously get.



Why do you believe a private company would prefer to hire a 'loser' middle aged person over a young hard working person for the same money?

Quote:

johnm214 said:
This is the tragic thing about this social engineering: it has the exact opposite effect people seem to thing: it hurts those most vulnerable.



You say it does, but can you explain why hard working young people wouldn't get hired over loser middle aged persons?


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21802450 - 06/13/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Because they are not any harder working and they are stupid and obnoxious and the middle aged people already know what they are doing.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21803569 - 06/13/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

by my estimation, based on simple variables....ie.... food and shelter.  depending on where you live, could be small. lets say Hawaii. live on the beach, shelter free, for as cheap as a few dollars a day.....just gotta do food. a "living wage" is subjective. the republicans, who have  outlasted their relatives to inherit their fortunes  will argue that all those that have to actually work for money are abusing the system. looking for hand outs, a free ride. it is very tough to determine a living wage. awesome question though


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21803887 - 06/13/15 09:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Some kid trying to get out of a shitty situation at home now has to compete w/ looser middle aged people because do-gooders decide they both deserve a living wage. The kid without the car, insurability, or connections of the middle aged person will thus find themselves priced out of the work they could previously get.



Why do you believe a private company would prefer to hire a 'loser' middle aged person over a young hard working person for the same money?



Because they are not any harder working and they are stupid and obnoxious and the middle aged people already know what they are doing.



If employers prefer middle aged worker, they'll be worth more money than young kids.


--------------------
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21804070 - 06/13/15 10:25 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

And the kids will not be worth minimum wage so their wage will be nil.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21804742 - 06/14/15 02:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The vast majority of people who earn minimum wage are worth far more than that to their company.  But their company pays them the least they possibly can (free market).  If you raise the minimum wage, the company has to decide if they want to do the work with even higher paid employees, have it done by someone at the new minimum, or not have it done at all (unlikely, because minimum wage workers generally bring in good money whether it be through cooking, digging ditches, or whatever).


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21805576 - 06/14/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The vast majority of people who earn minimum wage are worth far more than that to their company.



are there actual studies that have quantified this?


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21805660 - 06/14/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

No, he's full of crap.

if they are worth more they can go work for other companies at a higher wage (free market)


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21805857 - 06/14/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
No, he's full of crap.

if they are worth more they can go work for other companies at a higher wage (free market)




That's only the case when there isn't a labor excess as there is now. People are willing to work for lower wages now because there are more prospective job seekers than there are jobs. Companies know this, offer lower wages, and still have numerous applicants for each position.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21806054 - 06/14/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

for the most part, no employee is getting paid as much as their labor is worth.  if they were, then their employer wouldn't be making money, ya dig?

example:  employees for an aquarium service company are paid 20 dollars per hour for each hour of service they bill.  The aquarium service company they work for charges 75 dollars per hour.  sure, the company is assuming all risk(if the employee floods a building or something the company is gonna be paying for it), but it is also making 55 dollars per hour above labor cost.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21806238 - 06/14/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

That just means that the employee's work is worth 20 dollars per hour, and the rest of the work to run and advertise the company is worth 55 per hour.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21806431 - 06/14/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
No, he's full of crap.

if they are worth more they can go work for other companies at a higher wage (free market)




That's only the case when there isn't a labor excess as there is now. People are willing to work for lower wages now because there are more prospective job seekers than there are jobs. Companies know this, offer lower wages, and still have numerous applicants for each position.





No its all the time.  If there are ten million other people who can do your job too that means you aren't worth more.  Supply and demand.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21806473 - 06/14/15 01:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Whst kind of wage does a chimpanzee need to live?  ZERO.

since some humans apparently require a monetary wage to survive on earth, then obviously they are less evolved and less adapted to earths natural environment than chimps.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21808286 - 06/14/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Who needs a stinkin' living wage when 'THEY' have made it easy for the people to lose their dignity, put on a clown suit and studded dog collar, and crawl on bended hands and knees to the Government Teat that is extended for all to slobber on?  And if you are a good little puppy dog, all you have to do is roll over and wag your tail and slobber happily when the Government says 'beg' and you might get another bone tossed to you?


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
    #21808589 - 06/14/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That just means that the employee's work is worth 20 dollars per hour, and the rest of the work to run and advertise the company is worth 55 per hour.




i see where you're goin with that, but this is a real life business that i'm using as an example, so let me add some details.

The company is really an aquarium shop.  They do quite a bit of service work, but it is really an expansion of the existing business.  This shop has been in business for 40 years.  they have no advertising for the service work, other than face to face inside the shop.  Most of this is done directly by the employees.  The customers call the employees directly on their personal phones.  The employees handle all billing for their accounts and simply submit the checks and invoices to the office once per week.  the employees use their personal vehicles.

my point is that the service billing is all gravy for the shop owners.  they literally do almost nothing extra and collect a lot of extra money.(maybe more than the aquarium shop makes in sales)


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21808595 - 06/14/15 10:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Whatever they do, it's clearly worth 55 an hour or people wouldn't pay it.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins] * 1
    #21808877 - 06/15/15 12:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
No, he's full of crap.

if they are worth more they can go work for other companies at a higher wage (free market)




That's only the case when there isn't a labor excess as there is now. People are willing to work for lower wages now because there are more prospective job seekers than there are jobs. Companies know this, offer lower wages, and still have numerous applicants for each position.





No its all the time.  If there are ten million other people who can do your job too that means you aren't worth more.  Supply and demand.




You just confirmed my point. It's exactly supply and demand. If the supply of labor is larger than the demand for labor, then employers can pay very little because people will line up for the job anyways. If the supply of labor is smaller than the demand for labor, then employers have to compete to attract labor to their job and will therefore offer higher wages. We are currently in the former situation.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21810018 - 06/15/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

We are currently in the former situation.



only for some industries. There will always be certain industries that will be struggling due to new technologies. I'm sure there was an excess labor supply in the horse carriage industry when the automobile took off.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21810538 - 06/15/15 12:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Shins was talking about minimum wage workers. They are typically low skill and in large excess, regardless of the industry.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21810549 - 06/15/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

And a hike in min. wage will only serve to further the gap between supply and demand.


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21810624 - 06/15/15 12:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Not particularly relevant to what we were discussing. And also, although it seems intuitive, it's not necessarily true. See this study. I'm not saying it's definitive by any means, but I don't think the question has been settled yet.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21821314 - 06/17/15 10:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
if they are worth more they can go work for other companies at a higher wage (free market)



That's only the case when there isn't a labor excess as there is now. People are willing to work for lower wages now because there are more prospective job seekers than there are jobs. Companies know this, offer lower wages, and still have numerous applicants for each position.



No its all the time.  If there are ten million other people who can do your job too that means you aren't worth more.  Supply and demand.



You just confirmed my point.



Exactly - shins just demolished his original point in a big way.  People aren't paid what they're worth to a company, they are paid the least the company can get away with.


--------------------
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21821329 - 06/17/15 10:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
a hike in min. wage will only serve to further the gap between supply and demand.



Not true at all.  If someone is bringing in $75/hr for his company, as in ballsalsa's example, and they're being paid $8/hr, the company will keep them on for $15/hr, because they're still making a nice profit for the owners.  I understand the company has some additional expenses that is part of the $75/hr, but for most companies well below their income, or business owners wouldn't be making record profits, as they are today.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21822062 - 06/18/15 02:14 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I'm curious, how much do you consider a living wage to be? Not necessarily a number, but what needs should be covered for a wage to be considered a "living wage." Should it cover the needs of more than one individual (significant other, children, etc.), and if so, how many people should it cover? Should it cover only the bare necessities (food, water, shelter) or should it also cover other services? Which ones?

There are many more questions like these that could be applied, but I'm just curious to hear people's opinions. Personally, I don't know how many people it should cover. I think it should be more than one (small family or a couple) but I don't know how many that is. I think it should also allow for upward mobility, for example, by being able to save money to go to trade school or community college. In addition to covering basic necessities, of course.

So, anyways, I'm not looking for a number, but what services should be covered before a wage is a "living wage"?




Once upon a time, men worked, and women stayed home to take care of their family. They paid all of their utilities, and afforded some extras now and again. We don't live in that world anymore, and I'm not one of those people that believes women should stay home.

However, I think people should earn enough money that they can afford to weather the storms that they are likely to find themselves in, at one point or another, without burying themselves in crippling debt. So, I think a livable wage is a wage that does not envelope a person with stress day in and day out. You should be able to go to the doctor when you need to, pay utilities and rent/mortgage, afford a car/car repairs, and have a retirement savings.

I think relative stability in life isn't too much to ask, and I believe the sort of instability that low-wage income earners have in their lives causes undue mental and physical health problems for not only them, but their children. This is often passed on to their grand children, and so forth. I really do believe that the effects of poverty span generations. Often, even when a person breaks out of poverty, the damage remains. The familial dysfunction, etc.

I believe the poverty of a small demographic of society hinders all of us in one way or another.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Edited by Bigbadwooof (06/18/15 02:21 AM)


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