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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21760413 - 06/04/15 06:14 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove said: As you mention, energy is not a great approximation of resources.
Why not? Where is your data or source on this?
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BoldAsLove said:It's also worth noting that the energy used in apartments is produced far more efficiently, so even though they use more BTUs, they might actually consume fewer resources.
Where do you get that idea? What kind of efficiency are you talking about? How much more efficiently is "far more efficiently"? Also, how do you know that the report didn't take efficiency into account? I'm skeptical of this claim because the BTUs consumed in the car include losses from converting fossil fuels to usable energy. The engine is on the car. Houses and apartments consume electricity that has already undergone losses from conversion from fossil fuels, etc. But then every device in the home is inefficient too... There are lots of kinds of efficiency and ways to define it. Does the heat in a car's brakes count towards it's inefficiency? Does the heat in a room with no occupants count?
Please link to your sources when you make these claims and I will do the same.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
#21761293 - 06/04/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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DieCommie said:
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BoldAsLove said: As you mention, energy is not a great approximation of resources.
Why not? Where is your data or source on this?
A source? This is common knowledge. The amount of energy that cars burn does not account for the resources to produce the cars, the resources used to mine rare earth metals, the resources to transport parts all over the world, the resources to maintain cars, etc. It also doesn't account for how many resources were used to produce the energy.
It is one measure. You said that yourself (see below), and now you're asking me to provide a source because you don't believe your own claim?
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Mind you this is energy alone, energy is a subset of resources so its not the whole picture.
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BoldAsLove said:It's also worth noting that the energy used in apartments is produced far more efficiently, so even though they use more BTUs, they might actually consume fewer resources.
Where do you get that idea? What kind of efficiency are you talking about? How much more efficiently is "far more efficiently"? Also, how do you know that the report didn't take efficiency into account?
Seriously? First of all, the energy used in apartments comes from more than just fossil fuels, some of it comes from renewable sources. None of the energy the car burns comes from renewable sources (unless you're talking an electric car).
Second, modern internal combustion engines have a maximum efficiency of 25-30% (source). This means about 3/4 of the energy you produce isn't used to move the car. The energy used in a home, even the stuff that came from a fossil fuel plant, ranges from 33-45% (source). So it takes more resources to make the energy used to move a car, than to make the energy used in an apartment.
Third, not all of the energy used in apartments comes from electricity (with the efficiency numbers above), some if it comes in the form of natural gas or wood heating, which is more efficient when used directly (water heaters, stoves, furnaces, etc.).
Fourth, it's important to keep in mind that apartments are often shared by multiple people, so the energy per capita (which is what really matters in the larger picture of what we're discussing) is lower. Whereas, car rides on average, have less than two people: "We can compare, for instance, the estimated average occupancy rate of about 1.3 passengers per car in the San Francisco Bay Area[12] to the 2006 UK estimated average of 1.58.[13]"(source).
Finally, your report doesn't take efficiency into account. It explicitly says that it reports the total energy consumed. So again, it doesn't report how many resources were used to produce that energy.
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Please link to your sources when you make these claims and I will do the same.
You haven't yet. As I've repeatedly stated, I don't know which uses more resources (an apartment or a car), nor do I pretend to know. You've made the claim that you do know a number of times and haven't backed it up. It seems to me that you made an assumption without actually knowing the answer.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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my3rdeye



Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 4,354
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
#21772809 - 06/07/15 04:01 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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psyconaught said: I think its really impossible to define a living wage as its dependent on the individual situation. I have friends who's rent is $100 a month because they chose a cheap part of town and roomed with a bunch of people. A "living wage" for an 18 year old not going school and living with a bunch of friends is very different than a living wage for a family of 4.
Also you live in buttfuck nowhere. 100 dollars wont get you a storage locker in most places. A living wage in NYC or Seattle or LA should reflect this vast difference in housing costs. Its impossible to defend the minimum wage where I live unless you think its all high school kids who live with their parents. It's not either its govt subsidized fillipinos. This is what I dont get, you, the taxpayer, are going to pay more for lower minimum wages, do you really care that much about 25 cents being added to your fat food combo?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,870
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: my3rdeye]
#21773596 - 06/07/15 10:56 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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my3rdeye said:
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psyconaught said: I think its really impossible to define a living wage as its dependent on the individual situation. I have friends who's rent is $100 a month because they chose a cheap part of town and roomed with a bunch of people. A "living wage" for an 18 year old not going school and living with a bunch of friends is very different than a living wage for a family of 4.
Also you live in buttfuck nowhere. 100 dollars wont get you a storage locker in most places. A living wage in NYC or Seattle or LA should reflect this vast difference in housing costs. Its impossible to defend the minimum wage where I live unless you think its all high school kids who live with their parents. It's not either its govt subsidized fillipinos. This is what I dont get, you, the taxpayer, are going to pay more for lower minimum wages, do you really care that much about 25 cents being added to your fat food combo?
This is a very good point, but you made one mistake. i'll fix it.
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you, the taxpayer, are currently paying more for lower minimum wages
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: my3rdeye]
#21774528 - 06/07/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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my3rdeye said:
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psyconaught said: I think its really impossible to define a living wage as its dependent on the individual situation. I have friends who's rent is $100 a month because they chose a cheap part of town and roomed with a bunch of people. A "living wage" for an 18 year old not going school and living with a bunch of friends is very different than a living wage for a family of 4.
Also you live in buttfuck nowhere. 100 dollars wont get you a storage locker in most places.
So what? If you can't afford most places, then don't live most places.
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A living wage in NYC or Seattle or LA should reflect this vast difference in housing costs.
Yep, but that begs the question of whether anyone is owed a living wage: I doubt that they are.
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Its impossible to defend the minimum wage where I live unless you think its all high school kids who live with their parents.
Why? I could defend an even lower wage, I bet. If someone can't afford to live there while being paid a given wage then they shouldn't. Unless they were being enticed by entitlements and government subsidies, they likely would figure that out on their own and the market would either find it didn't need them or would start offering higher wages. Either way, situation works out.
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It's not either its govt subsidized fillipinos. This is what I dont get, you, the taxpayer, are going to pay more for lower minimum wages, do you really care that much about 25 cents being added to your fat food combo?
No, I don't care that much about small increases in price, I care about the people who will be fired and face reduce hours because of your economic engineering. Some kid trying to get out of a shitty situation at home now has to compete w/ looser middle aged people because do-gooders decide they both deserve a living wage. The kid without the car, insurability, or connections of the middle aged person will thus find themselves priced out of the work they could previously get.
As a result, looser middle aged people are subsidized and denied incentive to better themselves and the kid with great potential is denied job opportunities that would allow him to escape the poor environment he found himself in by chance. This is the same process people are facing now: unable to work more hours because employers don't want to pay for ObamaCare.
This is the tragic thing about this social engineering: it has the exact opposite effect people seem to thing: it hurts those most vulnerable.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
#21776314 - 06/07/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also you live in buttfuck nowhere
i wouldnt call a 200k population city buttfuck nowhere, but to each his own i guess my city is more representative of what the average american goes through than NY or LA.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
#21776934 - 06/08/15 01:03 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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johnm214 said: If you can't afford most places, then don't live most places.
Moving isn't all that cheap or easy, nor is leaving your family and friends. Plus, if you move somewhere that costs less, you often won't find the same type of work there.
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johnm214 said:
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A living wage in NYC or Seattle or LA should reflect this vast difference in housing costs.
Yep, but that begs the question of whether anyone is owed a living wage: I doubt that they are.
What do you mean by "anyone"? The question is whether people who work full time should get a living wage. It's a matter of opinion, but I think in any civilized country they should.
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johnm214 said:
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Its impossible to defend the minimum wage where I live unless you think its all high school kids who live with their parents.
If someone can't afford to live there while being paid a given wage then they shouldn't. Unless they were being enticed by entitlements and government subsidies, they likely would figure that out on their own and the market would either find it didn't need them or would start offering higher wages. Either way, situation works out.
I think if someone can't afford to live in a certain place while working full time, their employer should have to pay them more. We've shown many times in this forum that a higher minimum wage would have almost no impact on employment.
Free markets never pay people what they're worth. They pay the least they can.
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johnm214 said: I don't care that much about small increases in price, I care about the people who will be fired and face reduce hours because of your economic engineering.
Evidence has been provided that raising the minimum wage by a massive 40% would only increase unemployment by 0.3%, and over time that extra income would create more spending and thus generate more jobs.
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johnm214 said: Some kid trying to get out of a shitty situation at home now has to compete w/ looser middle aged people because do-gooders decide they both deserve a living wage. The kid without the car, insurability, or connections of the middle aged person will thus find themselves priced out of the work they could previously get.
Why do you believe a private company would prefer to hire a 'loser' middle aged person over a young hard working person for the same money?
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johnm214 said: This is the tragic thing about this social engineering: it has the exact opposite effect people seem to thing: it hurts those most vulnerable.
You say it does, but can you explain why hard working young people wouldn't get hired over loser middle aged persons?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Because they are not any harder working and they are stupid and obnoxious and the middle aged people already know what they are doing.
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humphreybot
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/14
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21803569 - 06/13/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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by my estimation, based on simple variables....ie.... food and shelter. depending on where you live, could be small. lets say Hawaii. live on the beach, shelter free, for as cheap as a few dollars a day.....just gotta do food. a "living wage" is subjective. the republicans, who have outlasted their relatives to inherit their fortunes will argue that all those that have to actually work for money are abusing the system. looking for hand outs, a free ride. it is very tough to determine a living wage. awesome question though
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21803887 - 06/13/15 09:17 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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johnm214 said: Some kid trying to get out of a shitty situation at home now has to compete w/ looser middle aged people because do-gooders decide they both deserve a living wage. The kid without the car, insurability, or connections of the middle aged person will thus find themselves priced out of the work they could previously get.
Why do you believe a private company would prefer to hire a 'loser' middle aged person over a young hard working person for the same money?
Because they are not any harder working and they are stupid and obnoxious and the middle aged people already know what they are doing.
If employers prefer middle aged worker, they'll be worth more money than young kids.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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And the kids will not be worth minimum wage so their wage will be nil.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21804742 - 06/14/15 02:19 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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The vast majority of people who earn minimum wage are worth far more than that to their company. But their company pays them the least they possibly can (free market). If you raise the minimum wage, the company has to decide if they want to do the work with even higher paid employees, have it done by someone at the new minimum, or not have it done at all (unlikely, because minimum wage workers generally bring in good money whether it be through cooking, digging ditches, or whatever).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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The vast majority of people who earn minimum wage are worth far more than that to their company.
are there actual studies that have quantified this?
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
#21805660 - 06/14/15 10:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, he's full of crap.
if they are worth more they can go work for other companies at a higher wage (free market)
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21805857 - 06/14/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shins said: No, he's full of crap.
if they are worth more they can go work for other companies at a higher wage (free market)
That's only the case when there isn't a labor excess as there is now. People are willing to work for lower wages now because there are more prospective job seekers than there are jobs. Companies know this, offer lower wages, and still have numerous applicants for each position.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,870
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21806054 - 06/14/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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for the most part, no employee is getting paid as much as their labor is worth. if they were, then their employer wouldn't be making money, ya dig?
example: employees for an aquarium service company are paid 20 dollars per hour for each hour of service they bill. The aquarium service company they work for charges 75 dollars per hour. sure, the company is assuming all risk(if the employee floods a building or something the company is gonna be paying for it), but it is also making 55 dollars per hour above labor cost.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,511
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21806238 - 06/14/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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That just means that the employee's work is worth 20 dollars per hour, and the rest of the work to run and advertise the company is worth 55 per hour.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21806431 - 06/14/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove said:
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Shins said: No, he's full of crap.
if they are worth more they can go work for other companies at a higher wage (free market)
That's only the case when there isn't a labor excess as there is now. People are willing to work for lower wages now because there are more prospective job seekers than there are jobs. Companies know this, offer lower wages, and still have numerous applicants for each position.
No its all the time. If there are ten million other people who can do your job too that means you aren't worth more. Supply and demand.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21806473 - 06/14/15 01:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Whst kind of wage does a chimpanzee need to live? ZERO.
since some humans apparently require a monetary wage to survive on earth, then obviously they are less evolved and less adapted to earths natural environment than chimps.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
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Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21808286 - 06/14/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Who needs a stinkin' living wage when 'THEY' have made it easy for the people to lose their dignity, put on a clown suit and studded dog collar, and crawl on bended hands and knees to the Government Teat that is extended for all to slobber on? And if you are a good little puppy dog, all you have to do is roll over and wag your tail and slobber happily when the Government says 'beg' and you might get another bone tossed to you?
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