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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746525 - 05/31/15 09:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, but I think its reckless to suggest to others that relying on said dream is a reasonable course of action.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746532 - 05/31/15 09:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How are you going to make energy from the bonds in carbon dioxide, for example?




i don't know, but if i was researching it, i would probably start here:
6CO2+12H2O----->C6H12O6+6O2+6H2O


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21746619 - 05/31/15 10:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

no quick answer for that one john?

don't bother googling it, thats the formula for photosynthesis.

why you wanna fuck with me john? you don't like my Jesus quote?  It's good advice in that quote john.  It's an allegory.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746780 - 05/31/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

How are you going to make energy from the bonds in carbon dioxide, for example?




i don't know, but if i was researching it, i would probably start here:
6CO2+12H2O----->C6H12O6+6O2+6H2O




Ok, so that's where you started. Now what?  That reaction is not spontaneous under atmospheric conditions, so how is that a source of energy?


Quote:

ballsalsa said:
no quick answer for that one john?

don't bother googling it, thats the formula for photosynthesis.




Thank you for educating me on this


Quote:

why you wanna fuck with me john? you don't like my Jesus quote?  It's good advice in that quote john.  It's an allegory.




I think your faith is harmful and you should reconsider it. I don't want to fuck with you and the jesus refrence wasn't in regards to your signature. I don't think you should promote something as a solution if you don't actually know it to be one.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21746798 - 05/31/15 11:14 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either...but it is a source of stored chemical energy that we release clumsily through combustion.

In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP. 

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21746920 - 06/01/15 12:10 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either




yes it is

Quote:


In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP.




And guess what, all of those do the reaction you just suggested in precisely the reverse direction.  Guess why?

You've still not shown how carbon dioxide's chemical bonds can be used to produce energy for our economy. Let's hear it.
 

Quote:

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly




Where did I assert that? I simply said you don't know how these things can be used to produce energy for our economy so you shouldn't claim that they can. Whether you personally are involved is irrelevant.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21748052 - 06/01/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either




yes it is

Quote:


In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP.




And guess what, all of those do the reaction you just suggested in precisely the reverse direction.  Guess why?

You've still not shown how carbon dioxide's chemical bonds can be used to produce energy for our economy. Let's hear it.
 

Quote:

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly




Where did I assert that? I simply said you don't know how these things can be used to produce energy for our economy so you shouldn't claim that they can. Whether you personally are involved is irrelevant.





No, it isn't.  Combustion requires input energy(an ignition source)  Just like how photosynthesis requires input energy(EM radiation in the visible spectrum)

I don't have to guess, those reactions take the glucose produced in photosynthesis and make ATP out of it, which has a bond broken in mitochondria, and becomes ADP, releasing energy that the cell then uses...then the ADP gets another phosphate stuck onto it to become ATP again, rinse and repeat...

As for deriving energy from CO2, that was your proposition, not mine, but a good straw man, nonetheless.

And, finally, matter/antimatter.  It's not rocket science(ha ha ha) i'll link you some stuff, and you can read it on your own.

http://space.about.com/od/Space-and-Astronomy-Star-Trek/a/Matter-Antimatter-Power.htm

http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/home/antimatter_spaceship.html

http://www.positronannihilation.net/

it's been real, you can head back to  Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology now.


--------------------


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Edited by ballsalsa (06/01/15 11:41 AM)


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21748082 - 06/01/15 11:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

How are you going to make energy from the bonds in carbon dioxide, for example?




i don't know, but if i was researching it, i would probably start here:
6CO2+12H2O----->C6H12O6+6O2+6H2O





While it is admirable to look for new ways of producing energy, we have to be reasonable about which areas to focus our efforts on. Photosynthesis is abysmal in terms of efficiency, ranging from about 3-6% (source). Photovoltaics on the other hand, can harness the energy at approximately 45% (source).

Again, it is certainly helpful to look for new energy sources, but believing that there is a presently untapped, easy to access energy source that provides bountiful energy with relatively little demerits is nothing more than Panglossian optimism. It will take an enormous amount of work and ingenuity to solve this problem.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21748332 - 06/01/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either




yes it is

Quote:


In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP.




And guess what, all of those do the reaction you just suggested in precisely the reverse direction.  Guess why?

You've still not shown how carbon dioxide's chemical bonds can be used to produce energy for our economy. Let's hear it.
 

Quote:

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly




Where did I assert that? I simply said you don't know how these things can be used to produce energy for our economy so you shouldn't claim that they can. Whether you personally are involved is irrelevant.





No, it isn't.  Combustion requires input energy(an ignition source)  Just like how photosynthesis requires input energy(EM radiation in the visible spectrum)




No, that reaction of gasoline with oxygen does not require energy input. You are conflating themodynamics with kinetics. That the reaction does not proceed at an appreciable rate at room temperature does not mean it isn't spontaneous, it means it is slow at room temperature. This is a function of the mechanism of the reaction rather than the thermodynamic relationship between reactant and product.







Quote:



I don't have to guess, those reactions take the glucose produced in photosynthesis and make ATP out of it, which has a bond broken in mitochondria, and becomes ADP, releasing energy that the cell then uses...then the ADP gets another phosphate stuck onto it to become ATP again, rinse and repeat




How is this responsive? I asked you why all the examples you provided proceeded in precisely the opposite direction that you said you'd use to produce energy. You haven't provided the answer, which is because the oxidation of gluocse is spontaneous, the product of it from carbon dioxide is not. Hence, organisms use the former to produce energy, not the later.

So again, how are you going to be using carbon dioxide to produce energy for our economy out of its chemical bonds?
...
Quote:


As for deriving energy from CO2, that was your proposition, not mine, but a good straw man, nonetheless.





I didn't propose it, I said you were wrong that every chemical bond is sources of energy that can be used and cited carbon dioxide as a counterexample. Please explain how utilizing carbon dioxide's chemical energy is not fairly within the claim of yours which I challenged.


Quote:


And, finally, matter/antimatter.  It's not rocket science(ha ha ha) i'll link you some stuff, and you can read it on your own.





Why should I read those links? You've not even proposed any connection to the topic here, let alone put forth an argument.


Quote:

BoldAsLove said:



While it is admirable to look for new ways of producing energy, we have to be reasonable about which areas to focus our efforts on. Photosynthesis is abysmal in terms of efficiency, ranging from about 3-6% (source). Photovoltaics on the other hand, can harness the energy at approximately 45% (source).




It's also not responsive to my challenge. The production of glucose from carbon dioxide is energy intensive, he's yet to show how the chemical bonds in carbon dioxide can be used as an energy source.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21748390 - 06/01/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?




Much less than an apartment averaged over each's lifetime.  Depends on your apartment and how much you drive I guess.





Do you have any evidence for this? I would estimate that a car uses far more resources to produce and use.





Then why does the construction of one apartment cost more than the construction of one car?  It costs far more to construct, maintain and decommission an apartment over its life time than a car (with each normalized to their lifetime).  To a first approximation the amount of resources something consumes scales linearly with the dollars it costs.  100k to buy an apartment vs 20k to buy a car.  I estimate that the apartment consumes roughly 5 times as much resources in its construction than the car.  Now it depends on how much you drive your car and how well you keep up your apartment if that ratio changes over time.  Each take a non-negligible amount of resources to maintain.  The apartment requires more to decommission than the car.  Its hard for me to fathom that on average a car could consume more per year than an apartment, but no I don't have any evidence and I don't have time to look it up.  Do you have any evidence?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21748418 - 06/01/15 01:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/21/16 01:43 PM)


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21748535 - 06/01/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The fact that some humans need a wage to live is a sad reality.  There is a bounty of food literally growing on trees wile homeless people sit on the street with a feed me sign.  We have ventured too far from our roots, and if we do not find a way back, we are doomed.


--------------------
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21748749 - 06/01/15 02:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

We need fusion.  Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.  We are not going to mine uranium from other planets and there is no oil there.  Fusion.  It is the future and it is the past.  If we don't eventually harness it we will be back in caves


--------------------


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: johnm214]
    #21748761 - 06/01/15 02:20 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
burning gasoline isn't spontaneous under atmospheric conditions either




yes it is

Quote:


In fact, respiration, fermentation, etc. are all biological methods of exploiting chemical bond energy.  read up on mitochondria and ATP.




And guess what, all of those do the reaction you just suggested in precisely the reverse direction.  Guess why?

You've still not shown how carbon dioxide's chemical bonds can be used to produce energy for our economy. Let's hear it.
 

Quote:

as for the matter/antimatter reactors, we'll just have to see how that plays out.  Your assertion, that my lack of involvement in that process, somehow means i should not promote the idea, is IMO kinda silly




Where did I assert that? I simply said you don't know how these things can be used to produce energy for our economy so you shouldn't claim that they can. Whether you personally are involved is irrelevant.





No, it isn't.  Combustion requires input energy(an ignition source)  Just like how photosynthesis requires input energy(EM radiation in the visible spectrum)




No, that reaction of gasoline with oxygen does not require energy input. You are conflating themodynamics with kinetics. That the reaction does not proceed at an appreciable rate at room temperature does not mean it isn't spontaneous, it means it is slow at room temperature. This is a function of the mechanism of the reaction rather than the thermodynamic relationship between reactant and product.







Quote:



I don't have to guess, those reactions take the glucose produced in photosynthesis and make ATP out of it, which has a bond broken in mitochondria, and becomes ADP, releasing energy that the cell then uses...then the ADP gets another phosphate stuck onto it to become ATP again, rinse and repeat




How is this responsive? I asked you why all the examples you provided proceeded in precisely the opposite direction that you said you'd use to produce energy. You haven't provided the answer, which is because the oxidation of gluocse is spontaneous, the product of it from carbon dioxide is not. Hence, organisms use the former to produce energy, not the later.

So again, how are you going to be using carbon dioxide to produce energy for our economy out of its chemical bonds?
...
Quote:


As for deriving energy from CO2, that was your proposition, not mine, but a good straw man, nonetheless.





I didn't propose it, I said you were wrong that every chemical bond is sources of energy that can be used and cited carbon dioxide as a counterexample. Please explain how utilizing carbon dioxide's chemical energy is not fairly within the claim of yours which I challenged.



Quote:


And, finally, matter/antimatter.  It's not rocket science(ha ha ha) i'll link you some stuff, and you can read it on your own.





Why should I read those links? You've not even proposed any connection to the topic here, let alone put forth an argument.


Quote:

BoldAsLove said:



While it is admirable to look for new ways of producing energy, we have to be reasonable about which areas to focus our efforts on. Photosynthesis is abysmal in terms of efficiency, ranging from about 3-6% (source). Photovoltaics on the other hand, can harness the energy at approximately 45% (source).




It's also not responsive to my challenge. The production of glucose from carbon dioxide is energy intensive, he's yet to show how the chemical bonds in carbon dioxide can be used as an energy source.





I said that energy is everywhere, and cited chemical bonds(in general) as an example(one of many).  I never stated that every energy source is (currently) exploitable(by known means).  Also, chemical energy was only one example cited, along with several others.

You should read those links because they are about interesting science that is related to the field of energy production
I have proposed that antimatter/matter reactions are 100% efficient at converting mass to energy so, yes, they are entirely related to the topic at hand...

Again, not sure what your problem is. i never stated that chemical bond energy is the only option, or even the most desirable one. Only that it exists in abundance.  We have many options currently available other than coal or other fossil fuels.  Some of them seem more promising to me than others.  There are several nuclear options for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine_modular_helium_reactor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_beta_fusion_reactor

There are photovoltaics as mentioned by BoldAsLove (storage is becoming less of an issue these days)

There is wind generation (not sure about reliability?  check out the netherlands)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill

There is tidal generation (reliably constant unless the moon disappears)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power

and i guess i should mention chemical energy too, like vast reserves of frozen CH4 on the ocean floor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate
(don't bother to read the links john, they don't have anything to do with harnessing the chemical bond energy in CO2)


--------------------


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Edited by ballsalsa (06/01/15 02:27 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21748778 - 06/01/15 02:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
We need fusion.  Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe.  We are not going to mine uranium from other planets and there is no oil there.  Fusion.  It is the future and it is the past.  If we don't eventually harness it we will be back in caves




i like your thinking, but according to john, we shouldn't promote that, because we aren't involved with research in that field


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21748861 - 06/01/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?




Much less than an apartment averaged over each's lifetime.  Depends on your apartment and how much you drive I guess.





Do you have any evidence for this? I would estimate that a car uses far more resources to produce and use.





Then why does the construction of one apartment cost more than the construction of one car?  It costs far more to construct, maintain and decommission an apartment over its life time than a car (with each normalized to their lifetime).  To a first approximation the amount of resources something consumes scales linearly with the dollars it costs.  100k to buy an apartment vs 20k to buy a car.  I estimate that the apartment consumes roughly 5 times as much resources in its construction than the car.  Now it depends on how much you drive your car and how well you keep up your apartment if that ratio changes over time.  Each take a non-negligible amount of resources to maintain.  The apartment requires more to decommission than the car.  Its hard for me to fathom that on average a car could consume more per year than an apartment, but no I don't have any evidence and I don't have time to look it up.  Do you have any evidence?




Resources are not the only driving force behind cost, consider that factors like supply and demand also have a huge effect. Not to mention that cost to construct has no bearing on resources consumed during use.

At this point, were arguing back and forth on a point that neither of us have the answer to. It sounds like you just made an assumption that apartments use more, but if you want to support your point you'll have to provide evidence, not just conjecture.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineWAN
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21749754 - 06/01/15 06:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Balsalsa:

I think what John is saying is that don't count your chickens before they hatch.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21749858 - 06/01/15 06:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/11/16 10:14 AM)


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OfflineDetached
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21754795 - 06/02/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

This topic took an unexpected turn.. :confused:


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21754992 - 06/02/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
And I admitted that a linear approximation is a first order approximation.  That is how all analysis of data have to begin, with a coarse approximation followed by successive tighter approximations.




Actually, all analysis begins with data, then it's followed by correlations.

Quote:


Why did you claim that cars are more resource consumptive than an apartment before I ever brought it up?  I only thought about it because you brought it up with your own point.

Quote:

Apartments push the line, but you are definitely right about cars.
...
I would estimate that a car uses far more resources to produce and use.




It sounds like you just made an assumption that cars use more, but if you want to support your point you'll have to provide evidence, not just conjecture.




That's the difference, I used words like estimate because I don't actually know which one uses more resources, but I estimate it would be the car. You on the other hand, have explicitly stated that apartments use more, and that's the claim that needs to be backed up.

Why do I estimate cars consume more? Well, they aren't particularly efficient for one. They require mining of rare earth metals. They require more upkeep, oil and other fluids, filters, and replacement parts. They can release toxic chemicals into the environment, requiring massive clean up efforts. And so and so forth. But I don't know for sure.

Quote:


So far it looks like I have generally provided more evidence in this thread than everyone else combined.  In keeping with that tradition I will invest a few seconds in a google search. ... This looks good.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2009/08/cars-vs-houses-what-consumes-more-energy/index.htm




As you mention, energy is not a great approximation of resources. It's also worth noting that the energy used in apartments is produced far more efficiently, so even though they use more BTUs, they might actually consume fewer resources.

In the end, it looks like the same picture. We still don't know which one uses more.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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