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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21743038 - 05/30/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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i don't know what the minimum wage should be, but i do know that if joe blow has some more money, he's gonna spend it. Let me give you an example: I was a plumber for 11 years. I learned a lot of cross trade shit, because thats just what happens. If i made a little more money, i could afford to hire a professional to set tile, or do drywall repair, or build me a shed, or any of the other things that i do myself because i can't afford to hire someone. Think about that. at least in the trades, think how much of a benefit it would be for all of those contractors. sure, it would cost more directly to each business owner in labor costs. But if you get off-setting new business, whats the problem?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21743455 - 05/31/15 01:06 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I think we need to set the minimum wage at a level sufficient to support the Duggars.
If you can convince the majority of the population that's what it should be, then we just might see it happen (although I seriously doubt the majority would ever agree).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Quote:
First, consider a study like this: Link. I have seen statistics like this my whole life and they are usually around the same number. The average american lifestyle would take between 4 and 5 earths to support everyone on the planet. Lets call it 4 for ease.
First, water, electricity, and an apartment is not an average American lifestyle. Shit, there are homeless people with the first two. Second, living the basic lifestyle you initially described wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as $50k.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21744421 - 05/31/15 11:04 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said:
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A living wage... It need not be more than a tent for a couple people, clothes suitable for the climate and weather, a source of potable water within walking distance, 2 meals of some staple cereal with a little fruit, veg and meat on the side and a means to dispose of human waste safely. Anything more than that is more than a "living wage", its a "standard of living wage" where that standard is made up from the life experience and expectations of the person living it, not biological need or ecological availability.
great semantic argument. But unless you are suggesting that the standard of living in the US be reduced to that of say, Nigeria, i don't see your point.
The point isn't about your concept of a standard of living. Its about a living wage. The US standard of living is far above a living wage. You are so far above it that you think a living wage is the poverty of Nigeria. Its not.
This devalidates any attempt to raise the US minimum wage based on "living wage" arguments. An attempt to raise the US minimum wage can only be based on "standard of living" expectations.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21744451 - 05/31/15 11:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove said: An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?
Much less than an apartment averaged over each's lifetime. Depends on your apartment and how much you drive I guess.
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BoldAsLove said:So if you were in charge of setting a "living wage," would you set it lower than the current minimum wage?
Nobody can set a living wage. The needs of a human to live are defined by our biology, not our society or opinions. I am not in favor of raising the "minimum wage" for the reasons I mentioned. Its not environmentally sustainable to expect the top 10% richest people on the planet to consume even more resources. Its nationalist bigotry to think that an unskilled American worker somehow deserves more than the earth can support per capita which necessarily means an unskilled non-American worker must consume less than the earth can support per capita.
The extra irony to me is that the same people who want minimum wage workers to consume more resources are the usually the ones who oppose fracking, conventional farming, etc. Where do they think this vast expectation of consumption to come from? They don't care and they don't actually think about the negative consequences of their ideas.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
First, consider a study like this: Link. I have seen statistics like this my whole life and they are usually around the same number. The average american lifestyle would take between 4 and 5 earths to support everyone on the planet. Lets call it 4 for ease.
First, water, electricity, and an apartment is not an average American lifestyle. Shit, there are homeless people with the first two. Second, living the basic lifestyle you initially described wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as $50k.
The average american lifestyle is 50k worth of resources for 2.5 people in an average city. The basic lifestyle I describe is below that. The vast majority of humanity consumes far less than that.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 11 minutes
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
#21744933 - 05/31/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
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The Ecstatic said:
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First, consider a study like this: Link. I have seen statistics like this my whole life and they are usually around the same number. The average american lifestyle would take between 4 and 5 earths to support everyone on the planet. Lets call it 4 for ease.
First, water, electricity, and an apartment is not an average American lifestyle. Shit, there are homeless people with the first two. Second, living the basic lifestyle you initially described wouldn't cost anywhere near as much as $50k.
The average american lifestyle is 50k worth of resources for 2.5 people in an average city. The basic lifestyle I describe is below that. The vast majority of humanity consumes far less than that.
Then where's the evidence that every family in the world having an apartment, electricity, water, and transportation is unsustainable?
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Edited by The Ecstatic (05/31/15 02:15 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21745040 - 05/31/15 02:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: i don't know what the minimum wage should be, but i do know that if joe blow has some more money, he's gonna spend it. Let me give you an example: I was a plumber for 11 years. I learned a lot of cross trade shit, because thats just what happens. If i made a little more money, i could afford to hire a professional to set tile, or do drywall repair, or build me a shed, or any of the other things that i do myself because i can't afford to hire someone. Think about that. at least in the trades, think how much of a benefit it would be for all of those contractors. sure, it would cost more directly to each business owner in labor costs. But if you get off-setting new business, whats the problem?
You aren't the one who is paying the tile guy, the homeowner is, and you fucked up your bid if it isn't cheaper for you to hire a tile specialist who knows what he is doing rather than having a jackoff of all trades doing it.
By the way plumbers around here, especially licensed ones, make sweet bank.
Overpaying someone on the premise that they will thus spend more money is such an incredibly idiotic argument that it makes my hair hurt. Where does this justification end? You are just shuffling money from what the market deems useful workers to people it does not. No net gain.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
#21745347 - 05/31/15 04:07 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?
Much less than an apartment averaged over each's lifetime. Depends on your apartment and how much you drive I guess.
Do you have any evidence for this? I would estimate that a car uses far more resources to produce and use.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21745425 - 05/31/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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ballsalsa said: i don't know what the minimum wage should be, but i do know that if joe blow has some more money, he's gonna spend it. Let me give you an example: I was a plumber for 11 years. I learned a lot of cross trade shit, because thats just what happens. If i made a little more money, i could afford to hire a professional to set tile, or do drywall repair, or build me a shed, or any of the other things that i do myself because i can't afford to hire someone. Think about that. at least in the trades, think how much of a benefit it would be for all of those contractors. sure, it would cost more directly to each business owner in labor costs. But if you get off-setting new business, whats the problem?
You aren't the one who is paying the tile guy, the homeowner is, and you fucked up your bid if it isn't cheaper for you to hire a tile specialist who knows what he is doing rather than having a jackoff of all trades doing it.
By the way plumbers around here, especially licensed ones, make sweet bank.
Overpaying someone on the premise that they will thus spend more money is such an incredibly idiotic argument that it makes my hair hurt. Where does this justification end? You are just shuffling money from what the market deems useful workers to people it does not. No net gain.
i should have been more clear. i meant hiring professionals for my own work, like on my house. Of course, i'f i'm selling someone a professional job, i'm going to hire sub out to a professional, and simply charge the homeowner.
As for plumbers making a lot of money....they do, if they are the boss, or in the union. However, where i live there is a depressed labor market in the trades because of so many illegal aliens. It's to the point where there's no way i could hire someone do work on my place. I actually got in the union up in santa barbara, but literally never got any work out of it. good luck getting in the union around L.A. unless you have a name that ends in Z (gonzalez, lopez, etc.)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21745739 - 05/31/15 06:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Don't even get me started on how illegals have fucked wages for construction workers. Even here. Out out out,
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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The Ecstatic said: Then where's the evidence that every family in the world having an apartment, electricity, water, and transportation is unsustainable?
It's way beyond unsustainable. It would require energy output to increase at least 100 fold. The current energy output of the world is only sustainable by the widespread use of coal, but try pulling that off x 100.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
#21746294 - 05/31/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Enlil said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Then where's the evidence that every family in the world having an apartment, electricity, water, and transportation is unsustainable?
It's way beyond unsustainable. It would require energy output to increase at least 100 fold. The current energy output of the world is only sustainable by the widespread use of coal, but try pulling that off x 100.
Thats a defeatist attitude. There is energy literally everywhere. It's just a matter of harnessing it. Every chemical bond=energy. EM radiation=energy. kinetic motion of matter=energy. heat=energy. hell, mass=energy. We can isolate anti-matter now. electron/positron interactions annihilate and yield 100% of mass as energy. Its there, we just have to step up and figure out how to use it. I have great faith in man's ability to innovate, especially in this field.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21746349 - 05/31/15 09:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: Its there, we just have to step up and figure out how to use it. I have great faith in man's ability to innovate, especially in this field.
I live in the world of today. Today, it's unsustainable. If a new technology is invented that eliminates the fundamental problem of energy scarcity, I'm all for it. Right now, however, that's not the world we live in.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
#21746398 - 05/31/15 09:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe not, but you'll live to see it, unless you're a lot older than i think you are
on a related note, google methane ice. that shit is literally everywhere(on the bottom of the ocean). kinda scares me actually, because of how much fossil carbon it represents. plus, with a supply like that, there might not be enough impetus to innovate for a long time
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Edited by ballsalsa (05/31/15 09:23 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21746419 - 05/31/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I doubt it'll happen in my lifetime.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
#21746435 - 05/31/15 09:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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i'm telling you that matter/antimatter reactors aren't that far away! the hardest part is isolating and containing the antimatter, and that's already been done on a small scale.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21746443 - 05/31/15 09:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know what you're telling me. I'm telling you that you're wrong and that the technology won't be usable for many decades if at all.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21746490 - 05/31/15 09:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
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The Ecstatic said: Then where's the evidence that every family in the world having an apartment, electricity, water, and transportation is unsustainable?
It's way beyond unsustainable. It would require energy output to increase at least 100 fold. The current energy output of the world is only sustainable by the widespread use of coal, but try pulling that off x 100.
Thats a defeatist attitude. There is energy literally everywhere. It's just a matter of harnessing it. Every chemical bond=energy.
No, or at least not if you mean usable energy. How are you going to make energy from the bonds in carbon dioxide, for example? Give me the reaction you'd use to exploit this as an energy source.
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EM radiation=energy. kinetic motion of matter=energy. heat=energy. hell, mass=energy. We can isolate anti-matter now. electron/positron interactions annihilate and yield 100% of mass as energy. Its there, we just have to step up and figure out how to use it. I have great faith in man's ability to innovate, especially in this field.
Exactly, you have faith. You have no idea how to actually accomplish any of this, but you have faith that someone else will. Great. I'd rather listen to a jesus freak, at least they have some books to back up what they say.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Enlil]
#21746505 - 05/31/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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A man can dream, can't he?
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