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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21734719 - 05/28/15 10:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory



I believe that supports what I'm saying.  If I work at a fast food restaurant making $10/hour, knowing that my peers at other fast food restaurants are also making $10/hr, then I'll feel a lot better about it.  However, I'll also feel upset if I'm brining in a lot more than what I'm earning.





If You feel you are bringing in a lot more than you are earning, you would be wise to demonstrate ot to other employers whom would be wise to pay you more.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: WAN]
    #21734739 - 05/28/15 10:42 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory



I believe that supports what I'm saying.  If I work at a fast food restaurant making $10/hour, knowing that my peers at other fast food restaurants are also making $10/hr, then I'll feel a lot better about it.  However, I'll also feel upset if I'm brining in a lot more than what I'm earning.





If You feel you are bringing in a lot more than you are earning, you would be wise to demonstrate ot to other employers whom would be wise to pay you more. 
Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall. 

Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?




What's "sworkung"?  Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society.  I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality.  Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.




In that case I would quit my job and never work again.  Simply existing does not entitle you to free money.  That s not the way of nature, every living being needs to work to survive.  Those who adapt well prosper, and those who do not adapt go extinct.  There us no way around it.





You just committed the naturalistic fallacy.  You say that just because that's the way things are in nature, that's how they should be.  No.  In nature, yes, people who don't work (or can't) die off.  But that's not how we should aspire to as an ethical society.  In our ethical, civilized society, the weaker and more helpless portion of our population gets taken care of.  Same reason why we have welfare and disability benefits.  I mean, you don't want to see disabled folks die off on the streets, do you?

Quote:


How exactly do you propose we supply all these humans with all that stuff?  Someone has to work to provide goods and services, those people will basically be slaves to provide all that stuff.




We are getting ahead of ourselves here.  My aim right now is to help only those within the boundaries of our nations (nations in the West).  Right now we can't help people in other countries (yet!) but it is indeed something we should be aiming for.  Also, people who provide all the goods and services will not become slaves, because we will pay them, and pay them well.  But I don't think we are talking about the same thing here.  I am not advocating that we simply hand to people everything they could possibly want.  I am proposing a world, where most people still work, but  those who aren't coping should be guaranteed the most basic, barest minimum standards of life.  This isn't too much to ask.





Interesting,  do You also fart rainbows?  I share your desires with my heart, but when I use my brain I realize that it is merely a fantasy, a fiction.  I don't like it either, but the cold hard facts of reality conflict with your imaginary utopia.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21734753 - 05/28/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.




So you believe the sick and/or injured do not deserve to live?




Not true.  I object to the idea that I am to be forced to be responsible for their well being.

charity is ethical, extortion is not.  Its as simple as that.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734769 - 05/28/15 10:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

There is only one difference between a bad economist and a good one: the bad economist confines himself to the visible effect; the good economist takes into account both the effect that can be seen and those effects that must be foreseen.

1.3
Yet this difference is tremendous; for it almost always happens that when the immediate consequence is favorable, the later consequences are disastrous, and vice versa. Whence it follows that the bad economist pursues a small present good that will be followed by a great evil to come, while the good economist pursues a great good to come, at the risk of a small present evil.

1.4
The same thing, of course, is true of health and morals. Often, the sweeter the first fruit of a habit, the more bitter are its later fruits: for example, debauchery, sloth, prodigality. When a man is impressed by the effect that is seen and has not yet learned to discern the effects that are not seen, he indulges in deplorable habits, not only through natural inclination, but deliberately.

1.5
This explains man's necessarily painful evolution. Ignorance surrounds him at his cradle; therefore, he regulates his acts according to their first consequences, the only ones that, in his infancy, he can see. It is only after a long time that he learns to take account of the others.**2 Two very different masters teach him this lesson: experience and foresight. Experience teaches efficaciously but brutally. It instructs us in all the effects of an act by making us feel them, and we cannot fail to learn eventually, from having been burned ourselves, that fire burns. I should prefer, in so far as possible, to replace this rude teacher with one more gentle: foresight. For that reason I shall investigate the consequences of several economic phenomena, contrasting those that are seen with those that are not seen.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734786 - 05/28/15 10:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.




So you believe the sick and/or injured do not deserve to live?




Not true.  I object to the idea that I am to be forced to be responsible for their well being.

charity is ethical, extortion is not.  Its as simple as that.




You said "If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live."

Do you stand by that statement? If so, it seems that you are saying those who are sick and injured to the point that they cannot work do not deserve to live.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734850 - 05/28/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

WAN said:
I am not advocating that we simply hand to people everything they could possibly want.  I am proposing a world, where most people still work, but  those who aren't coping should be guaranteed the most basic, barest minimum standards of life.  This isn't too much to ask.



Interesting,  do You also fart rainbows?  I share your desires with my heart, but when I use my brain I realize that it is merely a fantasy, a fiction.



It appears to be the opposite.  Your brain should show you that other countries have already proven this possible, but it's not in your heart to do it.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21734888 - 05/28/15 11:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Shins said:
If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.




So you believe the sick and/or injured do not deserve to live?




Not true.  I object to the idea that I am to be forced to be responsible for their well being.

charity is ethical, extortion is not.  Its as simple as that.




You said "If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself,  you simply do not deserve to live."

Do you stand by that statement? If so, it seems that you are saying those who are sick and injured to the point that they cannot work do not deserve to live.





What happens to suxh and injured animals in the wild?  From a naturalistic perspective,  yes they deserve to die, its the way of the wild, I did not make the rules, I'm simply relayingy observations

Now even though in nature they would die, it might be in our power to prevent it.  Ibthink everyone should help support those people voluntarily.  I object to enploying the violent, coercive, and ultimately deadly force of the state to extort people.  Not only is that immoral,  but it is highly dangerous.  Out of control governments that haveattained too much power are and even greater threat to humanity than starvation!


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InvisibleShins
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21734901 - 05/28/15 11:16 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'd also like to add that I lived for two years on about 5k /year.  I was broke as fuck, but I lived.  If I can do it, ehy can't other people?  I foraged and hunted for many of my meals.  If starving people cannot do the same, they have not earned to right to inhabit this world.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21738132 - 05/29/15 07:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
What happens to suxh and injured animals in the wild?  From a naturalistic perspective,  yes they deserve to die, its the way of the wild, I did not make the rules, I'm simply relayingy observations




We are not animals in the wild and it is in our best interest to support and enable people to better themselves as opposed to letting them die. Letting them die burdens our medical and legal systems, while also being (arguably) immoral and inhumane.

Quote:


I object to enploying the violent, coercive, and ultimately deadly force of the state to extort people.  Not only is that immoral,  but it is highly dangerous.




Can you provide an example of the government using deadly force to extort money from its citizens?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21738156 - 05/29/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

No more than the earth can provide per capita.  Thats about 15k a year worth of resources for a family of four in an average US city.  Roughly half the world lives (lives, not starves) on less resources than that.

There is not enough resources in the world for every person to have their own apartment, car, electricity and running water.  Not even close.  The idea that these things are needed to "live" is a twisted lack of perspective that could only come from the richest people that have ever lived.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21738203 - 05/29/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
No more than the earth can provide per capita.  Thats about 15k a year worth of resources for a family of four in an average US city.  Roughly half the world lives (lives, not starves) on less resources than that.




Where are you getting that number, is it based on current population numbers? There could be significantly more resources for people if the population was lower and we were more efficient about resource consumption.

Quote:


There is not enough resources in the world for every person to have their own apartment, car, electricity and running water.  Not even close.  The idea that these things are needed to "live" is a twisted lack of perspective that could only come from the richest people that have ever lived.




There are certainly enough resources for everyone to have electricity and running water, especially if we make some changes about the way we live (like eating less meat). Apartments push the line, but you are definitely right about cars. And again, it depends on where global population stabilizes.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Posts: 20,855
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21738487 - 05/29/15 08:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

well, not to turn this into an overpopulation debate, but we don't actually know how many "resources" there are in the world.  new "resources" are discovered and exploited all the time.  Sometimes, previously unexploitable "resources" become exploitable through advances in technology.  So, any claim, made by anybody, about a deficit of "resources" in the world is just numbers out of someone's ass.  500 years ago, there was a shocking lack of metallic aluminum in the world.  Advances in technology eventually made all of the readily abundant aluminum oxide available for use as a "resource".  Now, whether there actually is enough of EVERYTHING to go around, i don't know, and wouldn't claim to.  However, there is certainly enough for everyone in this country(usa) to have running water, electricity, housing, food, clothing, and even a little entertainment.


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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OfflineWAN
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Registered: 10/20/14
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
    #21738849 - 05/29/15 10:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Shins said:
How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall. 

Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?




What's "sworkung"?  Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society.  I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality.  Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.




In that case I would quit my job and never work again.  Simply existing does not entitle you to free money.  That s not the way of nature, every living being needs to work to survive.  Those who adapt well prosper, and those who do not adapt go extinct.  There us no way around it.





You just committed the naturalistic fallacy.  You say that just because that's the way things are in nature, that's how they should be.  No.  In nature, yes, people who don't work (or can't) die off.  But that's not how we should aspire to as an ethical society.  In our ethical, civilized society, the weaker and more helpless portion of our population gets taken care of.  Same reason why we have welfare and disability benefits.  I mean, you don't want to see disabled folks die off on the streets, do you?

Quote:


How exactly do you propose we supply all these humans with all that stuff?  Someone has to work to provide goods and services, those people will basically be slaves to provide all that stuff.




We are getting ahead of ourselves here.  My aim right now is to help only those within the boundaries of our nations (nations in the West).  Right now we can't help people in other countries (yet!) but it is indeed something we should be aiming for.  Also, people who provide all the goods and services will not become slaves, because we will pay them, and pay them well.  But I don't think we are talking about the same thing here.  I am not advocating that we simply hand to people everything they could possibly want.  I am proposing a world, where most people still work, but  those who aren't coping should be guaranteed the most basic, barest minimum standards of life.  This isn't too much to ask.




Quote:


Interesting,  do You also fart rainbows?  I share your desires with my heart, but when I use my brain I realize that it is merely a fantasy, a fiction.  I don't like it either, but the cold hard facts of reality conflict with your imaginary utopia.




Social innovation isn't the "farting out of rainbows", nor is helping out fellow humans in need a fantasy.  In fact, ask the  millions of Americans receiving social security.  I bet you they don't think their benefits are the farting out of rainbows.


Edited by WAN (05/29/15 10:02 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,368
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21739933 - 05/30/15 06:48 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
There is not enough resources in the world for every person to have their own apartment, car, electricity and running water.  Not even close.  The idea that these things are needed to "live" is a twisted lack of perspective that could only come from the richest people that have ever lived.




Based on what evidence?


--------------------


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21740022 - 05/30/15 07:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Lets do a little math and figure it out.  We will use values easily found on the internet.

First, consider a study like this: Link.  I have seen statistics like this my whole life and they are usually around the same number.  The average american lifestyle would take between 4 and 5 earths to support everyone on the planet.  Lets call it 4 for ease.

Now lets find the average american income: Link  Just over 50k per household.  Ill use 50k for ease. 

But how many people are in the household? Link  2.5, that is less than I thought.

So what is a sustainable amount of resources given our current level of resource exploitation?  That would be resources consumed (in dollars) divided by both people per household and earths required (to normalize it to one person on one earth).  50,000/(2.5*4) = 5,000  Now we have a dollar amount of what the earth can provide each person.  5k worth of resources as they would cost in an average US city per year.

What kind of city is that?  Link  Looking for one that is close to a hundred, I see Columbia, SC and Phoenix, AZ as typical cities.  I don't think that you can have an apartment to yourself, a running car, electricity and running water in either of those cities off of 5k a year.  That lifestyle is unsustainable and always has been.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21740031 - 05/30/15 07:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:


There is not enough resources in the world for every person to have their own apartment, car, electricity and running water.  Not even close.  The idea that these things are needed to "live" is a twisted lack of perspective that could only come from the richest people that have ever lived.




There are certainly enough resources for everyone to have electricity and running water, especially if we make some changes about the way we live (like eating less meat). Apartments push the line, but you are definitely right about cars. And again, it depends on where global population stabilizes.




How can you have electricity if you cant afford an apartment?  An apartment consumes more resources over its lifetime (in construction, maintenance and demolition) than a car does.  Look at the dollar costs of each as a rough guide to their environmental impact.  To a first order approximation, the more dollars it cost the more resources it consumes.



A living wage... It need not be more than a tent for a couple people, clothes suitable for the climate and weather, a source of potable water within walking distance, 2 meals of some staple cereal with a little fruit, veg and meat on the side and a means to dispose of human waste safely.  Anything more than that is more than a "living wage", its a "standard of living wage" where that standard is made up from the life experience and expectations of the person living it, not biological need or ecological availability.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Posts: 20,855
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #21740202 - 05/30/15 08:54 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A living wage... It need not be more than a tent for a couple people, clothes suitable for the climate and weather, a source of potable water within walking distance, 2 meals of some staple cereal with a little fruit, veg and meat on the side and a means to dispose of human waste safely.  Anything more than that is more than a "living wage", its a "standard of living wage" where that standard is made up from the life experience and expectations of the person living it, not biological need or ecological availability.




great semantic argument.  But unless you are suggesting that the standard of living in the US be reduced to that of say, Nigeria, i don't see your point.

Quote:


Lets do a little math and figure it out.  We will use values easily found on the internet.





Quote:

ballsalsa said:
well, not to turn this into an overpopulation debate, but we don't actually know how many "resources" there are in the world.  new "resources" are discovered and exploited all the time.  Sometimes, previously unexploitable "resources" become exploitable through advances in technology.  So, any claim, made by anybody, about a deficit of "resources" in the world is just numbers out of someone's ass. 




--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: DieCommie]
    #21741444 - 05/30/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
How can you have electricity if you cant afford an apartment? 




By splitting an apartment with multiple people.

Quote:

An apartment consumes more resources over its lifetime (in construction, maintenance and demolition) than a car does. 




An apartment's lifetime is significantly longer than a cars. How much do they consume per year?


Quote:

A living wage... It need not be more than a tent for a couple people, clothes suitable for the climate and weather, a source of potable water within walking distance, 2 meals of some staple cereal with a little fruit, veg and meat on the side and a means to dispose of human waste safely.




Meat has an enormous carbon footprint. The two biggest easy changes that a person can make is to stop driving cars and stop eating meat.

Quote:


Anything more than that is more than a "living wage", its a "standard of living wage" where that standard is made up from the life experience and expectations of the person living it, not biological need or ecological availability.




So if you were in charge of setting a "living wage," would you set it lower than the current minimum wage?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21741465 - 05/30/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

An apartment consumes more resources over its lifetime (in construction, maintenance and demolition) than a car does. 



i'd be interested if anyone has measured this. I'd bet the car consumes more resources than an apartment would.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21742190 - 05/30/15 06:45 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So basically the commie dingbats believe a living wage is whatever any irresponsible idiot needs to support his her family.  I think we need to set the minimum wage at a level sufficient to support the Duggars.


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