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qman
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21732244 - 05/28/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I didn't say they should. However, I believe that people who work hard for an employer full time doing the job they are hired to do deserves a living wage. If a person fails to work hard doing what they are hired to do, then they should be fired.
Let's not forget that if that person doesn't earn a living wage from their employer then they will be dependent on government handouts. I don't want to see the government subsidizing wages of private businesses in that way.
What creates a "living wage"? A labor force which has a favorable supply vs demand equation, nothing more.
Do you know why real wages have declined for the last 30=40 years? Too much supply (thanks globalization and illegal immigrants) vs demand (jobs).
I think like over 2 billion people survive on just under $2 per day, that's the hard reality where there is no fix.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: qman]
#21732293 - 05/28/15 12:07 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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qman said: What creates a "living wage"? A labor force which has a favorable supply vs demand equation, nothing more.
Do you know why real wages have declined for the last 30=40 years? Too much supply (thanks globalization and illegal immigrants) vs demand (jobs).
I think like over 2 billion people survive on just under $2 per day, that's the hard reality where there is no fix.
If we live in a free market bubble, then you are correct; Americans are screwed. But there are plenty of things that we can do: raise the minimum wage to give people more spending money, increase tariffs on goods from countries that don't follow fair labor practices, provide tax incentives that reward companies that don't outsource labor, etc...
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/28/15 12:15 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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qman said: What creates a "living wage"? A labor force which has a favorable supply vs demand equation, nothing more.
Do you know why real wages have declined for the last 30=40 years? Too much supply (thanks globalization and illegal immigrants) vs demand (jobs).
I think like over 2 billion people survive on just under $2 per day, that's the hard reality where there is no fix.
If we live in a free market bubble, then you are correct; Americans are screwed. But there are plenty of things that we can do: raise the minimum wage to give people more spending money, increase tariffs on goods from countries that don't follow fair labor practices, provide tax incentives that reward companies that don't outsource labor, etc...
No argument there, tariffs to create a balance of trade and booting out the illegals would change wages for US workers in no time, but I don't see it happening.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: WAN]
#21732669 - 05/28/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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WAN said:
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Shins said: How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall.
Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?
What's "sworkung"? Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society. I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality. Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.
In that case I would quit my job and never work again. Simply existing does not entitle you to free money. That s not the way of nature, every living being needs to work to survive. Those who adapt well prosper, and those who do not adapt go extinct. There us no way around it.
How exactly do you propose we supply all these humans with all that stuff? Someone has to work to provide goods and services, those people will basically be slaves to provide all that stuff.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,856
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21732691 - 05/28/15 01:55 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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i think a living wage is like pornography..."I know it when I see it"
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Shins said: How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work.
If someone wants to hire you to hit your head against a wall, then he should pay you at least a living wage to do it.
this what you don't seem to get; if i pay someone to do that, they will not produce much anything of value, I will go bankrupt doing so.
An employee MUST produce a greater profit for an employer than he pays him in wages, or else there is no point hiring him. You don't get 15 $/ hour simply for working, your work must produce at least $15.01 in value to jusify paying your wage, or else an employer is better off firing you.
Many people truly are that useless and unadaptes that they are not worthy of life! In nature if you cannot provide for yourself, you die. It is a fact of nature. Trying to prop up those who rightfully should be naturally selected reallybdoes dilute the gene pool, you accept the theory of evolution don't you?
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Shins said: Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?
I didn't say they should. However, I believe that people who work hard for an employer full time doing the job they are hired to do deserves a living wage. If a person fails to work hard doing what they are hired to do, then they should be fired.
an employee deserves no more than he produces. A person does not deserve $15/hour ifbhe only produces 10 $/ hour in value. Why should another person be obligated to pay the difference at a loss to himself? He should not, and he should, and will fire the employee for being a liability.
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Shins
Fun guy



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Posts: 16,337
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21732718 - 05/28/15 02:04 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself, you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.
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psilynut
aka Patchraper


Registered: 10/22/09
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21732874 - 05/28/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself, you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd th
Great idea but I just want to know one thing , considering there's like 100 million people on welfare in th US , let's say we cut them all off and half manage to survive somehow and the other half just die off . That's 50 million bodies piled up . Where are they going to go to die and whos going to clean it all up . Are taxes going to pay for it or we just going to leave them on the sidewalk in front of the grocery store?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,856
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psilynut]
#21732894 - 05/28/15 03:04 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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psilynut said:
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If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself, you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd th
Great idea but I just want to know one thing , considering there's like 100 million people on welfare in th US , let's say we cut them all off and half manage to survive somehow and the other half just die off . That's 50 million bodies piled up . Where are they going to go to die and whos going to clean it all up . Are taxes going to pay for it or we just going to leave them on the sidewalk in front of the grocery store?
the surviving half would get paid minimum wage to clean up the bodies, and people would say that they aren't producing enough for society to justify a higher wage than that
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21733164 - 05/28/15 04:17 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Shins said: An employee MUST produce a greater profit for an employer than he pays him in wages, or else there is no point hiring him. You don't get 15 $/ hour simply for working, your work must produce at least $15.01 in value to jusify paying your wage, or else an employer is better off firing you.
Makes sense in principle. But how much does a janitor earn for their company? Or a security guard? Or a driver? Not as simple as it sounds. People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position. Management has to decide if the company as a whole wants to support certain positions, even if those positions bring in no direct revenue.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position.
these are the same things.
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Management has to decide if the company as a whole wants to support certain positions, even if those positions bring in no direct revenue.
all positions bring value to the company. Maybe not directly quantifiable revenue like a salesperson, but they all bring a monetary value. If a company is profitable that means what the employees bring in is greater than what they are paid, making the min wage $15 will not suddenly make the productivity of all employees go up to justify it.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
#21733270 - 05/28/15 04:43 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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psyconaught said:
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People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position.
these are the same things.
These aren't even close to the same thing. A fast food cook will make no more than $15 an hour no matter how much food he cooks for his employer. If he has a good weekend and cooks a few thousand dollars in food, his pay won't change.
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psyconaught said: all positions bring value to the company. Maybe not directly quantifiable revenue like a salesperson, but they all bring a monetary value. If a company is profitable that means what the employees bring in is greater than what they are paid
Not even close to true. If a company is highly profitable, it might choose to provide free breakfasts for everyone. Are the cooks making money for the company, or just spending it?
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psyconaught said: making the min wage $15 will not suddenly make the productivity of all employees go up to justify it.
And so providing breakfast for all employees will not suddenly make their productivity go up either, correct? It's just something a company may choose to do if it has the money.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,856
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
#21733303 - 05/28/15 04:48 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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--------------------
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: ballsalsa]
#21733390 - 05/28/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory
I believe that supports what I'm saying. If I work at a fast food restaurant making $10/hour, knowing that my peers at other fast food restaurants are also making $10/hr, then I'll feel a lot better about it. However, I'll also feel upset if I'm brining in a lot more than what I'm earning.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Loc: Foreign Lands
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yup.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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WAN
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins] 1
#21733766 - 05/28/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
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WAN said:
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Shins said: How does simply sworkung hard necessarily benefit society? Hitting your head against the wall is hard work. Iwould know, talking to you is just like hitting my head against a wall.
Why shouls society owe anything to those who owe nothing to society?
What's "sworkung"? Anyway, I never said we as a society gives to people because they "contribute" to society. I say we as a society give to people on account of their being humans, and all humans deserve to have some semblance of a life of quality. Just by being humans, they are entitled to certain things.
In that case I would quit my job and never work again. Simply existing does not entitle you to free money. That s not the way of nature, every living being needs to work to survive. Those who adapt well prosper, and those who do not adapt go extinct. There us no way around it.
You just committed the naturalistic fallacy. You say that just because that's the way things are in nature, that's how they should be. No. In nature, yes, people who don't work (or can't) die off. But that's not how we should aspire to as an ethical society. In our ethical, civilized society, the weaker and more helpless portion of our population gets taken care of. Same reason why we have welfare and disability benefits. I mean, you don't want to see disabled folks die off on the streets, do you?
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How exactly do you propose we supply all these humans with all that stuff? Someone has to work to provide goods and services, those people will basically be slaves to provide all that stuff.
We are getting ahead of ourselves here. My aim right now is to help only those within the boundaries of our nations (nations in the West). Right now we can't help people in other countries (yet!) but it is indeed something we should be aiming for. Also, people who provide all the goods and services will not become slaves, because we will pay them, and pay them well. But I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. I am not advocating that we simply hand to people everything they could possibly want. I am proposing a world, where most people still work, but those who aren't coping should be guaranteed the most basic, barest minimum standards of life. This isn't too much to ask.
Edited by WAN (05/28/15 06:55 PM)
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


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Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: psyconaught]
#21734029 - 05/28/15 08:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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psyconaught said:
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BoldAsLove said: Let's not forget that if that person doesn't earn a living wage from their employer then they will be dependent on government handouts. I don't want to see the government subsidizing wages of private businesses in that way.
i think this is only true if people make bad decisions. I know plenty of people who have more than survived on min wage because they make good choices, don't have kids, room with lots of people, etc.
That's an over simplification. While bad decisions can (and often are) a big factor in a person's socioeconomic status, it can also have no effect at all. I know plenty of people who have difficulty providing for themselves and their family as the result of untimely death, illness, and/or injury.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21734036 - 05/28/15 08:12 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shins said: If you cannot produce enought to justify a living wage for yourself, you simply do not deserve to live, it is not up to society to be forced to pick up your slack, be grateful I'd they do, but to demand such things is unjustified, I'd you want a living wage, earn it by producing enough to live.
So you believe the sick and/or injured do not deserve to live?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Shins said: An employee MUST produce a greater profit for an employer than he pays him in wages, or else there is no point hiring him. You don't get 15 $/ hour simply for working, your work must produce at least $15.01 in value to jusify paying your wage, or else an employer is better off firing you.
Makes sense in principle. But how much does a janitor earn for their company? Or a security guard? Or a driver? Not as simple as it sounds. People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position. Management has to decide if the company as a whole wants to support certain positions, even if those positions bring in no direct revenue.
Assuming you are right ( which you are not) the market rate for that position is based on what those employees produce. "market rate" is price discovery, prices are a reflection of value.
anyways, you have obviously never owned a business and have rarely worked in the private sector. Government jobs are often based on market rates, but in the real world, a business has to balance assets and liabilities, this is very basic accounting. If an employee is a liability, then they are detrimental to a business and deserve to be fired.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How much is a living wage? [Re: Shins]
#21734520 - 05/28/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 7 months ago) |
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Shins said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: People aren't paid based on what they earn for their company; they're paid based on the market rate for a similar position.
Assuming you are right ( which you are not) the market rate for that position is based on what those employees produce.
So what you're telling me is that if I work for a fast food restaurant that takes in twice as much business as similar restaurants, and if I cook twice as much food, I'll be paid twice as much? And that if I work on a holiday where sales are through the roof I will quadruple my salary for that day???
I once had a job as a contract negotiator, where I negotiated a $190 million increase to a firm fixed price contract with the US Postal Service. Did I earn millions for that? No, I got a pat on the back and a nominal raise at the end of the year.
Sounds to me like you have never worked in the private sector.
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Shins said: If an employee is a liability, then they are detrimental to a business and deserve to be fired.
Of course I agree with you, but that's another topic.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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