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OfflinePDU
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Bulk or Cut
    #21717567 - 05/24/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Looking for a second opinion here - I am receiving mixed messages from reddit.

I am doing Ice Cream Fitness (ICF) (full body beginners routine, 3x weekly for 1 month) and follow the workout as specified except swapping skull crushers instead of tricep extensions, and no cable crunches or hyperextensions. - As per recommendations from people in this forum I have added: Dumbbell Fly's and Lateral raises after every workout. I add weight to the major compound lifts every 3 workouts (once per week) although right now can progress DL's every workout.


Current numbers for 5x5:


Bench - 100# :mad:
Squat - 175#
DL - 240#
Row - 90#

Height:  5' 11.5"
Weight: 171.2lbs

**Additionally - I usually cycle to work + recreationally (although haven't got into a routine due to lack of work...) Conservative estimate would be 100km of vigorous cycling weekly between now and September.

I was advised to bulk initially - and now people at reddit are calling me fat and saying i should cut to 10-12% BF before bulking. (estimated BF 20-25%)

On top of that - I am confused about how to calculate my TDEE. According to most online calculators I end up with:

Basal Metabolic Rate: 1769 cals/day
Body Mass Index: 23.99
TDEE: 2432 cals/day (if i am lifting 3x weekly.)

These projections DO NOT include any cycling or physical labour I am doing. Rough approximations of calorie burn from 1hr cycling is 700cals.

Thoughts on replacing calories burned from Cardio?

It seems to be that If i can calculate maintenance caloric needs using a scale and tracking weight gain/loss for 2-3 weeks, that I should be able to eat at maintenance and count on being in deficit because of the calories burned cycling. At 700 calories per 25kms, that would put me at roughly 2800+ calorie deficit per week, meaning 3/4lbs weight loss.

I don't even know where that puts me if I want to bulk.

Honestly - because it's summer, I have free time for meal prep and am relatively active with work, Id rather bulk now and cut while I am in school. Apparently because I am currently at high BF this would be a bad idea.....

What should i do?



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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21717642 - 05/24/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Its not that scientific. Don't eat carbs and do workout. I don't know man.


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InvisibletheRAPeutic
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21717704 - 05/24/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

bulk. you dont have any muscle to cut too...


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: theRAPeutic]
    #21717713 - 05/24/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

theRAPeutic said:
bulk. you dont have any muscle to cut too...




THIS! - Totally agree.

Seems like really contradictory advice over at reddit and i don't know what to make of it.

EDIT: Also really happy with my lifting progression and energy levels.


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Edited by PDU (05/24/15 02:36 PM)


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OfflineMoxyOx
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21718095 - 05/24/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Motherfucker just eat. All this cutting and bulking is for pretty boys. Work out and get strong, that's the objective no?


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The path the ancients cleared has closed.
And the other path, everyone's path,
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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: MoxyOx]
    #21718316 - 05/24/15 05:39 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MoxyOx said:
Motherfucker just eat. All this cutting and bulking is for pretty boys. Work out and get strong, that's the objective no?




  • Functional strength is secondary goal.
  • Primary goal is to build shoulders and chest and achieve a better shoulder/hip ratio.


I read Here that the best way to go about is to do a long term clean bulk, which i have no problem with.

I've been taken aback by the body fat estimations, as i'd have guess that it is lower than others are estimating. I actually don't care and don't ever want "chiseled" abs, but would like a leaner midsection than i have now. They make it seem like a bulk with my current BF percentage that I am going to turn into a blimp... but i can't see that happening. In all reality I am relatively lean and have a firm midsection!

EDIT: I am just trying to figure out how much i should be eating in order to progress with my lifts and gain some mass. Once I have an accurate ballpark i'll likely play it by ear.... In the past, i know I haven't eaten enough and/or consumed enough protein and experienced chronic fatigue. I'd like to get it right this time around.


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Edited by PDU (05/24/15 05:41 PM)


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21718358 - 05/24/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. Every day. Get it from real food not whey protein. Then no carbs yes exercise like I said earlier!


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21718386 - 05/24/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Matt87 said:
1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. Every day. Get it from real food not whey protein. Then no carbs yes exercise like I said earlier!




Twice you have totally missed the point of this thread. Thanks for nothing.


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21718431 - 05/24/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

No, I got it. You don't know what your doing and instead of having a discussion with me which could benefit you, you ignored me. You never even really asked a question in your op. Have fun doing math or whatever.


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Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21718469 - 05/24/15 06:38 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

The title is the question.

I already work out - as stated. No advice needed.

Not sure why you are talking about carbs.


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21718886 - 05/24/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I'll just dip on outta here then. Good luck.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21718918 - 05/24/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Matt87 said:
I'll just dip on outta here then. Good luck.




No worries. Graceful recovery - I am glad we didn't argue. Respect.


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InvisibletheRAPeutic
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU] * 1
    #21719134 - 05/24/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

i dunno what people on reddit said, probably to cut, but you dont have enough muscle and or bodyfat to need to cut. you could if you wanted, but you're gonna be skin and bones. i would bulk for 6 plus months then when you have a solid foundation of muscle, you can cut. you can keep the fat gains minimal if you do it right. i been bulking from almost a year and ive no intention of cutting anytime soon.


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OfflineDeckard_Cain
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21721333 - 05/25/15 03:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I'd say keep bulking. You look about 18%bf to me or less. If you don't have strong abs they won't show till fairly low bf levels anyway. Try adding pushups throughout the week to help your bench strength. I got similar DL to BP ratio issue and the pushups are helping me - shoulders getting stronger too.

Those calorie calculators are estimates. Start weighing all your food and counting macros. Then monitor your weight for a couple weeks while keeping food intake steady - you will know by the scale if you should lower/increase/keep the food intake where it is. That is probably best way to do it because estimating calories burned during aerobic exercise like biking can be fairly difficult (intensity levels and all). We also have slight variations in metabolic rates (though fairly slight)

Good luck :wink:

Matt87 if a human stops eating carbs they will die soon. Please do not recommend that to any one ever again.


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Deckard_Cain]
    #21721379 - 05/25/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Not literally. Duh. I've been a hardcore athlete for years. Most people can't even comprehend the level of effort I can put out. I've only gotten super lean and looked the part of the super athlete since cutting way down on carbs. It seems like the opening poster is exercising a lot so that could make the difference for him as well. I was trying to help and had already excused myself from this conversation. Don't be a dickhead...there is more than one path to the same goal.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Deckard_Cain]
    #21721893 - 05/25/15 05:47 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deckard_Cain said:
Those calorie calculators are estimates. Start weighing all your food and counting macros. Then monitor your weight for a couple weeks while keeping food intake steady - you will know by the scale if you should lower/increase/keep the food intake where it is. That is probably best way to do it because estimating calories burned during aerobic exercise like biking can be fairly difficult (intensity levels and all). We also have slight variations in metabolic rates (though fairly slight)





Already doing this (although just started) - the initial TDEE had me at 3050cals before adjusting for cycling. After going for a 2 hour ride i was supposed to ingest 4000+ calories and it seemed like too much.

Accordingly - I've adjusted by underestimating my activity level and I've come out with 2740cals/day in order to do a slow bulk (0.5lbs/week) - This number seems reasonable and so far my scale is in agreement (gaining trend over 4 days). It will be interesting to see if the trend continues over the next couple of weeks.

I am trying to figure out a percentage/multiple to decrease Myfitnesspal and my cycling apps "estimated calorie burn" - I think 30-40% isn't unreasonable....

So far so good - I feel like i've learned an immense amount over the past week or so. Feeling great. Explosive strength during my workout yesterday - actually feel like working out everyday now.

**just received protein supp. in the mail.

Since starting counting calories i've been consistently under on protein requirements on a daily basis.


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OfflineMescalean
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: theRAPeutic]
    #21721965 - 05/25/15 06:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

theRAPeutic said:
bulk. you dont have any muscle to cut too...




No offense by this either, I just notice new guys are always so quick to get "shredded" you don't want to cut up to 13 inch arms if that. work on your heavy compounds too


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21723745 - 05/26/15 06:51 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I am going to jump in here and add one more vote to the already overwhelming consensus. Bulk! I have never been too interested in trying to look better from working out, I just do it to improve at my sport, but in doing so, I've noticed some things. Bulking doesn't mean getting fat, it means gaining weight, and if you are pushing weights hard enough and eating clean enough, then it is possible (although difficult) to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Although my weight has fluctuated significantly over the past few years, I am stronger now than I ever have been, and the general correlation of strength to muscle mass, for me, has held true. As I get stronger, I generally have more muscles mass, and generally, the more muscle mass I have, the lower my body fat percentage is. I have never tried to cut for more than a few weeks, and I rarely focus on changing my body-fat percentage, my focus has always been on improving my abilities: Increasing my 1RM's, increasing my power output, improving my balance or speed, strengthening my weak areas, balancing muscle mass in disproportionate areas etc. I've never been super lean or had a great looking body, but as I improve my abilities, my body begins to look better. If your abilities change, then your body changes with them. Improve your strength, and your muscles will get bigger, and as some of the posters have already mentioned, even if you don't lose any fat, if your muscles grow then you will start to look better. You can build a better shoulder/hip ratio (as is your primary goal) without losing any body-fat. Just get a bigger bench and overhead press.

It's not super important to count calories and measure macros etc. If you want to gain weight, eat lots of food all the time, if you want to lose weight, don't eat as much, or burn up more calories. If you want to get leaner, cut out all sugars, and a bit of the total carbohydrate. With these simple principles I've managed to have very good control over my weight. Your body will get what it needs from your diet, but will be shaped more by what you do, than what you eat.




TL;DR Stop focusing on how you look and the fine details of your diet, dieting is fairly simple. Start focusing on working hard, crushing weights and improving your abilities, and your body will follow accordingly.


Edited by secondorder (05/26/15 06:51 AM)


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21723777 - 05/26/15 07:07 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Well thought out and logically present post secondorder, thank you.

Although listing my primary goal as shoulder/waist ratio makes me sound vain - I, like you, am also just trying to improve myself athletically primarily (despite what i said above). That said - I admit that i've grown very dissatisfied with my upper/lower body disparity as i've matured and do desperately want to even out. I guess I am vain! Nevertheless, I am also training for strength... and like you said, pursuing athletic goals in the gym will result in improved physicality and physique essentially no matter what... 100% pursuing that over defined triceps or piddlyshit.

I do disagree about the diet though - without tracking my calories I find it easy to eat WAY too much, and infact i've probably been eating substantially above my TDEE my entire life. I have had an enormous appetite my entire life, and although it waned this past year due to a drop in activity levels (going to university), I am surprised by how many calories i can truly eat before reaching satiety. It explains my love handles IMO.

Although I do not want to be obsessive about it long term, I am finding the exercise useful in the short term and plan to continue doing it. Seeing how different levels of macro's make me feel, food timing, and general portion sizing, control and meal awareness.

Thanks everyone - this thread has been successful! Opinions very much appreciated.


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21723852 - 05/26/15 07:36 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I do disagree about the diet though - without tracking my calories I find it easy to eat WAY too much, and infact i've probably been eating substantially above my TDEE my entire life. I have had an enormous appetite my entire life, and although it waned this past year due to a drop in activity levels (going to university), I am surprised by how many calories i can truly eat before reaching satiety. It explains my love handles IMO.

Although I do not want to be obsessive about it long term, I am finding the exercise useful in the short term and plan to continue doing it. Seeing how different levels of macro's make me feel, food timing, and general portion sizing, control and meal awareness.




Yeah fair enough, the details of dieting matter more for some more than for others. I was just trying to point out how powerful working out can be for changing a person's body. I've seen so many people over the years with absolutely awful diets, some who overeat severely, transform their bodies into lean machines. Michael Phelps is not alone in this respect.

One of my favorite quotes from a track and field athlete I admire: "There is no such thing as over-training, just under-eating" Needless to say, he was a large man haha.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21725770 - 05/26/15 05:50 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Fair enough - i understand what your saying. I'd prefer to keep the love handles to minimum though.

However - i will keep the essence of what you said in mind "train hard, eat alot of good food and see results - no muss no fuss."

Hah!


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21726955 - 05/26/15 10:58 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Bulk for life.

I'll cut when I am dead


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21846978 - 06/23/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

It's been a month since i posted this and I just compared a current photo with one in the OP. I am looking very soft by comparison, although my forarms, and legs (calves and thighs) have grown visually.

My thighs have almost outgrown a pair of jeans I own.....

I am gaining a bit too fast and should probably cut down my caloric intake a bit.

This will be a hard - I am basically getting fat.

(+I haven't been biking as much as I should be.)


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21848454 - 06/23/15 11:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You're making good strength gains, keep them up. If you continue to get stronger then you'll eventually see the aesthetic changes occur too. Don't give up just because you've gained a little bit of fat.


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Offlinegcs
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21848651 - 06/24/15 12:57 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I've found it really hard to gain weight when I'm eating little-to-no fructose. So long as I'm doing intense exercise weekly, I can eat >200-300g of carbohydrates (from sources like whole milk, brown rice, and oats) per day, and see little fat gain. It's when I start adding fruit juice, soft drinks, chocolate, and all those sugary processed foods that I start to gain fat, even when exercising weekly.

I know all the sugar in fruit is fructose, but I haven't had any trouble eating a few bananas a day. It's just the really sugary stuff that causes the fat gain for me.

I'd say I'm somewhere between 10-15% body fat though. I mostly stay within this range and still manage to put on muscle mass if I'm eating a lot. I haven't tried going below that, but if I wanted to I'd probably limit the carbohydrates a bit. It's much easier for me to go heavier after eating some glucose, it's hard for me to gain muscle and recover well on a low-carb diet.

I think the crucial thing is that I work out every week. If I ate lots of glucose and I wasn't exercising, I'd probably start putting on a lot of fat.

edit: But yeah, I usually just eat lots of protein, fat, and carbohydrates. I came down with what seems like food poisoning/a stomach bug a couple days ago, so I'm focusing on recovering from that by adding lots of vegetables to my diet and keeping my energy intake a bit low until I recover. If you ever get sick, I think it's good to have a little bit of body fat to draw energy from, in case you lose your appetite as I have.


Edited by gcs (06/24/15 01:11 AM)


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: gcs]
    #21849234 - 06/24/15 07:24 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

You can build muscle and cut fat at the same time. I wish you would try my advice for thirty days and show us all three pictures. Now what exactly is the goal here? If you're wanting to be lean and muscular its crazy to do all the exercise you stated and be getting "soft".


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21851564 - 06/24/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Matt87 said:
You can build muscle and cut fat at the same time. I wish you would try my advice for thirty days and show us all three pictures. Now what exactly is the goal here? If you're wanting to be lean and muscular its crazy to do all the exercise you stated and be getting "soft".




Goal is to build overall size especially upperbody (arms/shoulders/back) and to be strong.The lifting has already helped me overcome tightness and chronic pain in my neck and shoulders, which is a major bonus.

In 1 month (exactly) i've put on 1/2 inch circumference on my forarms, hips and waist. I am obviously gaining weight too quickly - I think my diet was fine when i was burning 700cals from cycling to/from work - but once i stopped that due to fatigue/heat I never adjusted and gained like... 4lbs almost over night; 172.4 to 177.8 (over the past 1 month).

I must say that eating at a big surplus helps me recover faster and feel better over all - but from what i've read the optimal rate of gain is 0.5-1lb per week and I am at 1.35lbs/week which suggests that I am likely gaining primarily fat. Accordingly, the last couple days i've been cutting back on the things i was adding to my diet to reach a big caloric surplus (mainly whole milk and peanut butter)....

All of this said - I've basically resolved for myself to eat a bunch and get as strong as possible and follow my routine to a T until September, at which time I will adjust diet/routine as necessary.

Strength and size gains are good. I am going to add in some Ab work, and cut back on the whole/milk peanut butter (which should drop me 3-400calories and put me in the "slow bulk" zone....)


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21852062 - 06/24/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

So you want to be like a thick large bodybuilder type dude? Like a linebacker or something?! I would like to see your progress if you ever feel like showing updates.
Do you do bodyweight stuff like chin ups/push ups occasionaly or mostly throw around the heavy metal?


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21853074 - 06/24/15 11:13 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Matt87 said:
So you want to be like a thick large bodybuilder type dude? Like a linebacker or something?! I would like to see your progress if you ever feel like showing updates.
Do you do bodyweight stuff like chin ups/push ups occasionaly or mostly throw around the heavy metal?




The most generic physique that i could use as an example is that of a rugby player. Thick and strong, but not jacked/swole. I don't care about single digit body fat or massively bulgy muscles - but i'd like my shoulders to be wider than my hips with a bit of a taper, and a lean midsection with stocky/thick legs.

I took a bunch of pics in a couple different mirrors with different lighting and I am actually disgusted by what I see! - not going to post pics.

Once I lose some of the belly fat, I will.

EDIT:

Although I am new - I would like to get strong aswell and am more geared towards the powerlifting mentality than that of bodybuilding.

I have no timeline - but I find these numbers attractive goals:

225# bench
360# squat
405# DL

This is just 10lbs short of the 1000lb club...

*shrug* - All i know is that I didn't start working out to get fat, at least not this quickly!


Edited by PDU (06/24/15 11:26 PM)


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InvisibleMasked
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21854168 - 06/25/15 08:39 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)



I started at 161lbs and after 7 months I am 173lbs.  And I was wearing a 36" waist jeans and now I'm wearing 30" waist jeans.

If you care for some of my advice, let me know

One tidbit I'll offer tho is that genetics play a huge role for success in aesthetics especially


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21854280 - 06/25/15 09:22 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:

If you care for some of my advice, let me know





Yes, i'd like to have your input. :smile:

Quote:

One tidbit I'll offer tho is that genetics play a huge role for success in aesthetics especially




Understood. I have a friend for instance, who is very out of shape and has never really exercised, yet is tall, muscular and looks physically indominible.

I've always carried a small pudge on my belly, although it nearly disappeared when i was long distance cycling and especially when i was marathon training. Despite many changes in my exercise and diet habits my body weight is very consistent. However - I got to low 160's marathon training and low 170's when i was deadlifting heavy frequently.

Now - I am surprised how easy it's been to gain the weight. Since i've stopped adding a tbsp of peanut butter and a 1/2 cup of milk to my smoothies, i've stopped gaining for the past 3 days. :blush:

Probably the worst thing i could have done was added these high calories foods to my diet: Peanut butter, almond butter, bread, butter, greek yogurt.

Traditionally I am a big eater and the consistency of my weight over the years suggests that I am fairly intune with meeting my variable energy requirements via. eating to satiety. I think i would have better results eating slightly more/less than i "felt" i needed, rather than calculating on an app!


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21854317 - 06/25/15 09:31 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Matt87 said:
I would like to see your progress if you ever feel like showing updates.





Here we go, the morning light is kinder to me and I am considerably less bloated:




and 5 weeks ago:



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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21854445 - 06/25/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I'm on my phone so forgive me for not going into huge explanations and explaining things to death.  I'll keep it short and sweet.  I will just give some food for thought based off my personal results.

- I've accomplished this all with crossfit.  There are so many huge misconceptions and down right ignorant views on crossfit.  Suffice to say, high intensity and dynamic training is where it's at in my opinion.  If you want mass, you need to push some heavy weight around and sweat your ass off and work for it :smile:

Here is just a small list of the exercises I do regularly:

-cleans
-hang cleans
-snatch
-thrusters
-overhead squat
-front squat
-back squat
-clean and jerk
-push jerk
-push press
-strict press
-bench press
-hand stand push-ups
-regular pushups
-deficit pushups
-pullups
-muscle ups(on rings and bar)
-dips(on rings and dip bar)
-medicine wall balls
-rowing
-toes to bars
-knees to elbows
-box jumps
-deadlifts
-sit-ups
-Ghd situps
-back extensions
-good mornings
-rope climbs
-tire flips
-sled drags
-double  unders(jump rope)
-pistols
-kettleball swings

The key is variety. So whatever you are doing, make sure to mix it up a lot and really push yourself to absolute muscle failure each and every workout

And there is a misconception about what literally builds muscle.  Lifting weights doesn't build muscle.  Eating protein doesn't build muscle.  What builds muscle is your body's internal system.  The only way it can accomplish this is with proper rest and optimal nutrition.

I have started with people around the same time who go ever single day.  I go 3 times a week.  Sometimes once a week.  And I feel I have had much better results.  Not just in my pictures.  I have packed some serious gains on all my lifts.

Your body needs time to repair the torn and stretched muscles.  Everyone needs different rest periods.  Listen to your body.  After a brutal workout, I am around the 4 to 5 day mark myself.

Focus more on your macros and less on your calories. 

I've always had a really slow metabolism. I pack weight on easily when I eat shit foods.  What has worked for me is cutting all shit out.  All fast food, all heavy carbed process stuff.  Carbs are always the smallest portion on my plate and it's always healthy carbs.  You need carbs to fuel hard workouts and help with recovery.  Insulin plays a huge role in gains but I won't get into that.  I generally use sweet potatoes, yams and turnips for carbs with my chicken/fish/beef and veggies.

So eat fairly clean.  And when you do this...eat as much as you bloody want.  I do.  I crush 1% milk and go through lots of peanut butter.  Love making banana peanut butter smoothies with my protein powder :smile:

I love eating sushi when I eat out. :smile:

Make sure your workouts are intense as fuck, eat clean but eat lots.  Get the right macros every day, use a protein supplement, drink tons of water, eat a multi vitamin, take lots of rest days when needed and make sure you get your beauty sleep....you do that, the results will slowly but surely come. 

Everyone wants fast results, but it's about building up slowly, surely and that builds a strong foundation for life long results and overall health


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21854506 - 06/25/15 10:28 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

If you want results don't do what Masked is saying


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21854884 - 06/25/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I also eat according to the intensity of workouts.  If I have a particularly nasty workout the next day, I enjoy more healthy carbs the night before

I love oatmeal and blueberries a couple hours before a workout sometimes as well


Eat for performance.  Like I said, eat lots but eat clean.  :smile:


Every day is different but I'll give you an idea of how I eat on an average day off work :shrug:

Wake up around 730am, drink 500ml of water
By 9 am, I eat either a smoothie with one banana, 2 tbsp of peanut butter and one scoop of protein powder and milk OR a small portion of oatmeal with blueberries and protein with water

Workout from 11 to 12.

Within twenty minutes of completing workout, I have another scoop of protein powder(loaded with glutamine and bcaas and some creatine).  Shortly after I usually am hungry as fuckhave a dense late lunch, loaded with yams/sweet potatoes or turnips, and of course some meat source and a pile of veggies :smile:. Sometimes I may even have a subway sandwhich, no dressings.  Or I make a badass 3 egg omelette loaded with all sorts of goodies

I snack on nitrite free deli meats or roasted chicken or Greek yogurt or scrambled egg whites and/or the odd banana or piece of fruit between meals.  Sometimes I even have a small bowl of cereal

For dinner i like to have fish/steak/or chicken with another healthy carb source and a pile of veggies.  I make my evening meal the largest out of the day IF I'm hungry enough for it

I randomly take tablespoon helpings of peanut butter randomly.  It's a weakeness lol


Right now I'm at work and my main meal today is fish and kale.

For awhile I used the myfitnesspal app to track macros and calories

I average about 2400 to 2600 a day with my eating habits.  My macros were all in check except I often went over on the fat thanks to how much peanut butter and avocado is in my diet lol






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Edited by Masked (06/25/15 12:32 PM)


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21859116 - 06/26/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you want results don't do what Masked is saying




This^


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21860351 - 06/26/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I use standard barbells because I got the weight set for cheap of craigslist. Anyways - i never got around to weighing the bars until last night. The 6' bar which i use for bench, rows, shrugs and good mornings is 20lbs, but i've been counting it as 10lbs.

Overnight all those lifts gained 10lbs. :smile:


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21860630 - 06/26/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Quote:

If you want results don't do what Masked is saying




This^




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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21861301 - 06/26/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

:sploosh:

It's very clear many of you are typical 21 year old know it alls with no real experience besides what you lie about on a message board :rolleyes:

yeah just terrible advice for good results.  Eat clean, eat lots, take a multi vitamin, get lots of rest, make sure macros are in check, use a protein supplement, lift heavy, workout hard to failure and try to create some variety in your workouts.  yeah, terrible advice for results :canthelpbutlaugh:

and we both know you are the biggest joke of them all mescalean.  The only thing you have any knowledge in is being a junkie and living with mom lol

cheers


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21861746 - 06/26/15 09:33 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
:sploosh:

It's very clear many of you are typical 21 year old know it alls with no real experience besides what you lie about on a message board :rolleyes:

yeah just terrible advice for good results.  Eat clean, eat lots, take a multi vitamin, get lots of rest, make sure macros are in check, use a protein supplement, lift heavy, workout hard to failure and try to create some variety in your workouts.  yeah, terrible advice for results :canthelpbutlaugh:

and we both know you are the biggest joke of them all mescalean.  The only thing you have any knowledge in is being a junkie and living with mom lol


cheers





Lol you always bitch at me, am i the easiest target because im younger you always mention me no matter how little a role I have. do you just think "hes 10+ years younger i can show him grrrr? Yeah I know a lot about heroin. No I don't live with my mother. I also think you lost control of your "manic depressive" shortcoming and wigged the fuck out again lol. Grow some thicker skin you fucking pussy. Only reason I quoted them was the "mix it up alot" is completely fucking retarded and no serious coach training someone to gain some decent size would have someone follow some sporadic "program". He should "mix it up" about every six weeks give or take how his body reacts. Your first post was pretty much a sales pitch for crossfit without using the word "crossfit". And just because people post higher numbers than you doesn't mean they are lieing. Like you said, some (many) of us may ( judging off the shirtless selfies) have been gifted with better genetics.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21861755 - 06/26/15 09:34 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
:sploosh:

It's very clear many of you are typical 21 year old know it alls with no real experience besides what you lie about on a message board :rolleyes:

yeah just terrible advice for good results.  Eat clean, eat lots, take a multi vitamin, get lots of rest, make sure macros are in check, use a protein supplement, lift heavy, workout hard to failure and try to create some variety in your workouts.  yeah, terrible advice for results :canthelpbutlaugh:

and we both know you are the biggest joke of them all mescalean.  The only thing you have any knowledge in is being a junkie and living with mom lol

cheers



You were not flexing in your begin picture but from knowing the body pretty well I can tell you made ok at best results


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21861764 - 06/26/15 09:37 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I suppose it's only fair that I critique specific statements that you made:

Quote:

The key is variety. So whatever you are doing, make sure to mix it up a lot and really push yourself to absolute muscle failure each and every workout.




1. Variety is good every once in a while, but in order to get good at something, your body needs a substantial adaptational stimulus, which cannot be achieved very efficiently if you keep changing what you do. The people in this world who are the best at particular things, do those particular things all the time. The people with the best bodies in the world (bodybuilders and physique competitors) tend to use the same exercises over and over again, changing it up only occasionally when adaptation become negligible.

2. The most common cause of injury among athletes is the introduction of a new, intense stimulus. If you don't do bench press very often and you add bench press to your program at maximum intensity and achieve muscular failure, the risk of injury will go through the roof. If you do bench press regularly, all the time, however, your body will adapt to this movement, your muscles, bones and tendons will shape to take the stress of the movement, and you can go heavy without much risk of injury; but this requires consistency and monotony.

3. "absolute muscular failure each and every workout" is one  of the stupidest pieces of advice I've ever heard. This is what causes injuries, this is what causes plateaus, this is what causes over-training. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a time and a place for absolute failure and super high-intensity workouts, but aiming for it every single workout is not a good way to go.

Quote:

And there is a misconception about what literally builds muscle.  Lifting weights doesn't build muscle.  Eating protein doesn't build muscle.  What builds muscle is your body's internal system.  The only way it can accomplish this is with proper rest and optimal nutrition




I don't really understand what you are suggesting here. The body's internal system wont build you bigger muscles without a) lifting weights to stimulate it and b) increased protein intake to increase protein synthesis in the muscles.

Your statement is like saying "Eyes don't literally see, they merely focus light, and transfer information to the retinal nerve. The thing that does the actual seeing is the visual cortex."

Nobody here is denying that you need to sleep and eat food in order to change your body, but the best stimulus to the body to build muscle mass is lifting weights.

Quote:

It's very clear many of you are typical 21 year old know it alls with no real experience besides what you lie about on a message board




I am not 21, and I do not lie on message boards. I also live off both my athletic performances and personal training, so please don't accuse me of having no real experience.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21861772 - 06/26/15 09:40 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
I suppose it's only fair that I critique specific statements that you made:

Quote:

The key is variety. So whatever you are doing, make sure to mix it up a lot and really push yourself to absolute muscle failure each and every workout.




1. Variety is good every once in a while, but in order to get good at something, your body needs a substantial adaptational stimulus, which cannot be achieved very efficiently if you keep changing what you do. The people in this world who are the best at particular things, do those particular things all the time. The people with the best bodies in the world (bodybuilders and physique competitors) tend to use the same exercises over and over again, changing it up only occasionally when adaptation become negligible.

2. The most common cause of injury among athletes is the introduction of a new, intense stimulus. If you don't do bench press very often and you add bench press to your program at maximum intensity and achieve muscular failure, the risk of injury will go through the roof. If you do bench press regularly, all the time, however, your body will adapt to this movement, your muscles, bones and tendons will shape to take the stress of the movement, and you can go heavy without much risk of injury; but this requires consistency and monotony.

3. "absolute muscular failure each and every workout" is one  of the stupidest pieces of advice I've ever heard. This is what causes injuries, this is what causes plateaus, this is what causes over-training. Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a time and a place for absolute failure and super high-intensity workouts, but aiming for it every single workout is not a good way to go.

Quote:

And there is a misconception about what literally builds muscle.  Lifting weights doesn't build muscle.  Eating protein doesn't build muscle.  What builds muscle is your body's internal system.  The only way it can accomplish this is with proper rest and optimal nutrition




I don't really understand what you are suggesting here. The body's internal system wont build you bigger muscles without a) lifting weights to stimulate it and b) increased protein intake to increase protein synthesis in the muscles.

Your statement is like saying "Eyes don't literally see, they merely focus light, and transfer information to the retinal nerve. The thing that does the actual seeing is the visual cortex."

Nobody here is denying that you need to sleep and eat food in order to change your body, but the best stimulus to the body to build muscle mass is lifting weights.

Quote:

It's very clear many of you are typical 21 year old know it alls with no real experience besides what you lie about on a message board




I am not 21, and I do not lie on message boards. I also live off both my athletic performances and personal training, so please don't accuse me of having no real experience.




He gets very defensive with criticism man. He already drank the punch.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21861782 - 06/26/15 09:44 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Even if that is the case I think it's important to give everyone the option of open, honest discourse.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21861839 - 06/26/15 10:04 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

First off:

1. If all you do is bodybuild, you are not an "athlete" and please refrain from such a hilarious notion

2. The best body builders and even athletes, certainly do keep their workouts diverse.  What you said is just plain stupidity.  Of course you need to bench press regularly.  But mix it up.  Doing bench press over and over again on chest day will bring you to plateaus. 

3. The most common cause of injury is introducing new stimulus?  What kind of crack are you smoking?  Again, you have made it quite clear you are talking out of your ass. 

4.  Lifting weights only triggers the response for your body to go to work repairing and rebuilding muscle.  So of course you need a trigger. My point was, never forget that your BODY does the work.  Give it the rest and nutrition it needs to do so.  How that can be twisted in any way to be bad advice just proves to me how ridiculous you are being

5. I pity anyone that pays you for any sort of health advice.  Now that's the stupidest thing I have ever heard

6.  I have put 12 lbs on in 7 months, yet had to throw out my 36" waist jeans and buy 30".  So I'm losing inches, losing fat, and putting on 1.7lbs of true lean muscle every month.  I'm just getting started. 7 months is fuck all :shrug:

So much useless douchey bro nonsense all over this physical forum lately.  It's borderline comical if there wasn't so many impressionable kids taking it who don't know any better


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21861902 - 06/26/15 10:27 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

That analogy about the eyes was pretty slick.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21864247 - 06/27/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PDU said:
Looking for a second opinion here - I am receiving mixed messages from reddit.

I am doing Ice Cream Fitness (ICF) (full body beginners routine, 3x weekly for 1 month) and follow the workout as specified except swapping skull crushers instead of tricep extensions, and no cable crunches or hyperextensions. - As per recommendations from people in this forum I have added: Dumbbell Fly's and Lateral raises after every workout. I add weight to the major compound lifts every 3 workouts (once per week) although right now can progress DL's every workout.


Current numbers for 5x5:


Bench - 100# :mad:
Squat - 175#
DL - 240#
Row - 90#

Height:  5' 11.5"
Weight: 171.2lbs

**Additionally - I usually cycle to work + recreationally (although haven't got into a routine due to lack of work...) Conservative estimate would be 100km of vigorous cycling weekly between now and September.

I was advised to bulk initially - and now people at reddit are calling me fat and saying i should cut to 10-12% BF before bulking. (estimated BF 20-25%)

On top of that - I am confused about how to calculate my TDEE. According to most online calculators I end up with:

Basal Metabolic Rate: 1769 cals/day
Body Mass Index: 23.99
TDEE: 2432 cals/day (if i am lifting 3x weekly.)

These projections DO NOT include any cycling or physical labour I am doing. Rough approximations of calorie burn from 1hr cycling is 700cals.

Thoughts on replacing calories burned from Cardio?

It seems to be that If i can calculate maintenance caloric needs using a scale and tracking weight gain/loss for 2-3 weeks, that I should be able to eat at maintenance and count on being in deficit because of the calories burned cycling. At 700 calories per 25kms, that would put me at roughly 2800+ calorie deficit per week, meaning 3/4lbs weight loss.

I don't even know where that puts me if I want to bulk.

Honestly - because it's summer, I have free time for meal prep and am relatively active with work, Id rather bulk now and cut while I am in school. Apparently because I am currently at high BF this would be a bad idea.....

What should i do?






You don't have any muscle. How can you even think of cutting? Also ICF is a shit routine so I'm not surprised by how you look. Switch to Starting Strength and get your numbers up. Do cardio on your "off" days. Once you actually look like you have some muscle mass switch to 5/3/1 and eat at your TDEE. For now you need Eat a lot (BULK, i.e. 500+ calories OVER your TDEE) throughout the day but go to bed HUNGRY, i.e. eat an early dinner. You will burn fat all night long if you do this.


Edited by Titus_Pullo (06/27/15 12:55 PM)


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Titus_Pullo]
    #21864522 - 06/27/15 02:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Titus_Pullo said:
You don't have any muscle. How can you even think of cutting?




The purpose of cutting as a "skinnyfat" is due to calorie partitioning. If you have an excess of bodyfat and eat a caloric surplus a higher percentage of the surplus will be allocated to creating fat reserves before lean muscle tissue.

This is why i asked the question.

However, the difference this makes in someone who is 15% and someone who is 25%bf is possibly fairly negligible. 

Quote:

Also ICF is a shit routine so I'm not surprised by how you look.




Right - so if i did SS for 3 weeks, my physique would be vastly different than that posted? Give me a break. I actually started with SS for the first couple weeks before taking a layoff to get through finals and then starting up on ICF.

Quote:

Switch to Starting Strength and get your numbers up.




Please explain why SS is better than ICF?

(they are the same, minus accessories!)

Quote:

Do cardio on your "off" days.




Check.

Quote:

Once you actually look like you have some muscle mass switch to 5/3/1 and eat at your TDEE.




Like I said - ive had a hard time calculating TDEE due to varying levels of intensity at work, and all around inconsistent schedule with everything but lifting.

Why 5/3/1? I've heard good things about madcow and texas method and heard 5/3/1 critisized because it is too low volume. How about PHUL or a 6 day "brosplit"?

Quote:

For now you need Eat a lot (BULK, i.e. 500+ calories OVER your TDEE)




Check - gained too much flab.

Anyways - how would you determine when to stop bulking?... Is it unwise to do a slow bulk from now until next April?...


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21864862 - 06/27/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Going to have to side with Masked, regardless of his contempt towards me. An athlete does not focus solely on lifting weights, it's a multifaceted discipline. Getting "big" is just plain stupid and unhealthy. I know someone who has good looking muscles but all it is is glamour. He has no speed, endurance or flexibility. I smoked the kid in a sprint off a couple months ago too.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: MoxyOx] * 1
    #21864902 - 06/27/15 04:06 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MoxyOx said:
Going to have to side with Masked, regardless of his contempt towards me. An athlete does not focus solely on lifting weights, it's a multifaceted discipline. Getting "big" is just plain stupid and unhealthy. I know someone who has good looking muscles but all it is is glamour. He has no speed, endurance or flexibility. I smoked the kid in a sprint off a couple months ago too.




Kid just sounds un-athletic, Linebackers run 40 yards dashes at an average of 4.6 seconds I'd say without looking it up. The kid you raced was probably just naturally slow. While I'm 6'1" 218 lbs I guarantee I'd smoke most in agility drills such as ladders cones and dot drills. It's all about genes like masked did say. some people are just naturally spastic. Now that I think about I wouldn't consider my size big I'm actually pretty happy with where I'm at for now. I have friends who are 5'7ish 160-170 and think huge yet I look at some of my friends who are the 6'5" 275 12 percent body fat genetic freaks and feel fucking tiny. It's kind of a relativity thing too. OP How tall did you say you were again? another important roll (genetics once again) for instance my father is 6'1" 240 lbs and has been puting up 315 on bench for reps throughout his laters years (50's), people say im the spitting image of him and admittedly it is obvious I came from that mans balls when we stand side by side. Is your dad a big guy?


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21865169 - 06/27/15 05:24 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mescalean said:
Quote:

MoxyOx said:
Going to have to side with Masked, regardless of his contempt towards me. An athlete does not focus solely on lifting weights, it's a multifaceted discipline. Getting "big" is just plain stupid and unhealthy. I know someone who has good looking muscles but all it is is glamour. He has no speed, endurance or flexibility. I smoked the kid in a sprint off a couple months ago too.




Kid just sounds un-athletic, Linebackers run 40 yards dashes at an average of 4.6 seconds I'd say without looking it up. The kid you raced was probably just naturally slow. While I'm 6'1" 218 lbs I guarantee I'd smoke most in agility drills such as ladders cones and dot drills. It's all about genes like masked did say. some people are just naturally spastic. Now that I think about I wouldn't consider my size big I'm actually pretty happy with where I'm at for now. I have friends who are 5'7ish 160-170 and think huge yet I look at some of my friends who are the 6'5" 275 12 percent body fat genetic freaks and feel fucking tiny. It's kind of a relativity thing too. OP How tall did you say you were again? Is your dad a big guy?




5'11.5"

My dad is 6' maybe 6'1" and really lanky. I am much better proportioned/muscular than him - although he is still an endurance athlete in his 60's.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: MoxyOx]
    #21865187 - 06/27/15 05:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MoxyOx said:
An athlete does not focus solely on lifting weights, it's a multifaceted discipline. Getting "big" is just plain stupid and unhealthy.




Not sure if you are directing this towards me, or just in response to the hate towards masked from other posters.

If it is directed to me (op) ill respond:

I am a pretty decent/strong cyclist who enjoys climbing and endurance. Additionally I have the ability to be a decent runner/swimmer when i train for those sports.

I have no desire to be big - but would like balance to my upperbody to match my strong legs. You are far more likely to find me cycling cross country or long-distance hiking than posing/BB'ing or keeping low BF%.

*shrugs*


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21867146 - 06/28/15 03:31 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Defending Masked, not attacking you.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21867357 - 06/28/15 06:44 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

1. If all you do is bodybuild, you are not an "athlete" and please refrain from such a hilarious notion




I hate to turn this into an ego flare, but you keep slumping into insecure 'you vs other people' and ad hominem attacks.. I am not a bodybuilder, nor have I ever been, I don't know why you assumed this. I am a semi-professional discus thrower who has competed at both the Olympics and world championships, a good part of my living comes from this sport. Had I not learnt enough to train smarter and harder than the drug-cheats who occasionally out-perform me, I wouldn't be able to continue competing at this level.


Quote:

2. The best body builders and even athletes, certainly do keep their workouts diverse.  What you said is just plain stupidity.  Of course you need to bench press regularly.  But mix it up.  Doing bench press over and over again on chest day will bring you to plateaus.




Not if you do it right, many people have consistently increased a single lift, or a single skill upon performing it monotonously for long periods of time: Andrei Malanichev is the best squatter in the world at the moment, and all he does for his squat workouts is squat, and has been doing so for pretty much his whole career. And no, not really, most of the best athletes change one or two specific stimuli every now and then, but keep most of their workouts the same. Again, I never said a change of stimulus can't help, indeed I think it can, but don't go over the top, mixing things up a lot is not a good idea; this is bad advice:
Quote:

So whatever you are doing, make sure to mix it up a lot and really push yourself to absolute muscle failure each and every workout.




Quote:

3. The most common cause of injury is introducing new stimulus?  What kind of crack are you smoking?  Again, you have made it quite clear you are talking out of your ass.


 

Please read my posts carefully, I said "The most common cause of injury among athletes is the introduction of a new, intense stimulus." If you are to introduce a new stimulus, then it's quite stupid to really push yourself to absolute muscle failure each and every workout. You should only be pushing yourself to muscle failure on movements that you are well conditioned for, from a lot of recent training. If a sprinter wants to start lifting weights to improve their speed, it's not a good idea to "really push yourself to absolute muscle failure each and every workout." They are likely to tear their muscles in half. A sprinter can push themselves in a sprinting workout, because they sprint all the time, but to lay down on a bench press and "really push themselves to absolute muscle failure" will likely result in a season ending injury. If you are introducing a new stimulus, take it easy, and build up on the movement slowly over a long period of time. A new stimulus is something that will cause your body to adapt, meaning your body is not already adapted to doing it... meaning your body is not ready to handle high stress in an unfamiliar movement... meaning injury risk is increased... this should be fairly easy to follow.

Quote:

4.  Lifting weights only triggers the response for your body to go to work repairing and rebuilding muscle.  So of course you need a trigger. My point was, never forget that your BODY does the work.  Give it the rest and nutrition it needs to do so.  How that can be twisted in any way to be bad advice just proves to me how ridiculous you are being




Your 'point' was quite unclear. At least to me. It was either a cliche truism, or a false statement.

Quote:

5. I pity anyone that pays you for any sort of health advice.  Now that's the stupidest thing I have ever heard




Ouch man, ouch. Do you get off trying to hurt people's feelings over the internet? I'm trying my best to keep this discussion productive, but apparently you'd rather be immature and petty.

Quote:

6.  I have put 12 lbs on in 7 months, yet had to throw out my 36" waist jeans and buy 30".  So I'm losing inches, losing fat, and putting on 1.7lbs of true lean muscle every month.  I'm just getting started. 7 months is fuck all :shrug:




Good for you man, I am happy for you, but why is this relevant to whether or not a particular set of statements are correct or not?

Quote:

So much useless douchey bro nonsense all over this physical forum lately.  It's borderline comical if there wasn't so many impressionable kids taking it who don't know any better




What makes you think you're not contributing to this "bro nonsense". Please re-read your large post and tell me that it doesn't contain "bro nonsense" and bad advice. It wasn't void of any good advice, but could have done without certain gems like "whatever you are doing, make sure to mix it up a lot and really push yourself to absolute muscle failure each and every workout."


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21874143 - 06/29/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

You fell into the category of blasting me with a "holier than thou" attitude from the sidelines when I wasn't even talking to you.  I told OP my personal achievements (which aren't extraoridnary by any means, but I have had satisfactory personal results).

Only when I said my piece to you, is when you decided to actually reply with some substance.  I suppose I was a little hot under the collar, but I'm so sick of some of the nonsense being spread all over this board.  I apologize for being hot under the collar with you right out of the gate tho

I guess I should have clarified that of course common sense comes into play.  If you don't ever bench, of course it would be silly to go to absolute failure with it for your first time.  This is just common sense where I'm from :shrug:  I suppose I shouldn't have assumed people would know this

But I still agree to disagree with you.  In general, with movements you are familiar with, it should be done to failure.  When the muscle is torn, spent and exhausted, that triggers the body to go "whoa fuck. Houston we have a problem.  Repair that bitch and repair it with some style" :grin:

I mean, I've followed a lot of different training regimens over my life.  So far this has been the most effect for ME.  But like I said earlier, and people surprisingly agreed with, genes play such a factor.  And even tho I have had satisfactory results with an average of 1.7lbs of lean muscle gain a month....it's only been 7 months.  I MAY start to plateau at some point, aesthetically speaking mostly.  Id be lying if asthetics didn't matter to me even a little bit. 

Right now, I eat and train like a hard working athlete for performance. That's what I have done from the beginning.  As I packed on the muscle, that fat burnt away.  As I packed on muscle, I burnt more fat when sleeping.  When I toyed with my diet to "lean", my strength and performance suffered greatly.  I figure, I'll just keep training hard and eating hard, but eating clean.

I'm a smaller guy, so weight and measurements are very subjective.  Ultimately, for my frame, if I can keep putting on lean gains, I think I'd genetically Max out around 185lbs

Here is an athelete than can move some impressive weight on Olympic lifts and is very fast with some good endurance. He is also 5'7 like me and weighs 185lbs



I wouldn't mind looking like that one day. Lol.  Who knows tho.  That type of body doesn't happen overnight

PDU:  I think you are on a good track.  I just don't think you should be focusing on cutting or bulking persay.  I guess if I was forced to pick one and it was black and white, which it isn't, Id say I'm telling you to bulk.  :shrug:  I just offered some advice on what has helped me :shrug:

Mescalean and oxy: thank you for showing some class.  I will try to return the gesture. :cheers:

At the end of the day, we are ALL trying to be the best we can be and achieve our personal goals.  We all have different approaches, different mentalities, different training....but we all are on the same path of striving for something more.  So as much as some of you piss me off :p, I still :raisemyglass: to you all


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21874172 - 06/29/15 03:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

To bring some humour and go way off topic:

This is what an "aspiring" athlete, who got to much 32C sun, looks like today:





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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21874531 - 06/29/15 05:25 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Decent reply Masked. I appreciate the initial posts aswell btw. I took alot of the information from it and never took the controversial comments literally as many here have - No need to argue.

Oddly enough since i posted about being fat, i've become less bloated and look alot better. *shrugs* ... Maybe it's from the creatine?


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21874852 - 06/29/15 06:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
You fell into the category of blasting me with a "holier than thou" attitude from the sidelines when I wasn't even talking to you.  I told OP my personal achievements (which aren't extraoridnary by any means, but I have had satisfactory personal results).

Only when I said my piece to you, is when you decided to actually reply with some substance.  I suppose I was a little hot under the collar, but I'm so sick of some of the nonsense being spread all over this board.  I apologize for being hot under the collar with you right out of the gate tho

I guess I should have clarified that of course common sense comes into play.  If you don't ever bench, of course it would be silly to go to absolute failure with it for your first time.  This is just common sense where I'm from :shrug:  I suppose I shouldn't have assumed people would know this

But I still agree to disagree with you.  In general, with movements you are familiar with, it should be done to failure.  When the muscle is torn, spent and exhausted, that triggers the body to go "whoa fuck. Houston we have a problem.  Repair that bitch and repair it with some style" :grin:

I mean, I've followed a lot of different training regimens over my life.  So far this has been the most effect for ME.  But like I said earlier, and people surprisingly agreed with, genes play such a factor.  And even tho I have had satisfactory results with an average of 1.7lbs of lean muscle gain a month....it's only been 7 months.  I MAY start to plateau at some point, aesthetically speaking mostly.  Id be lying if asthetics didn't matter to me even a little bit. 

Right now, I eat and train like a hard working athlete for performance. That's what I have done from the beginning.  As I packed on the muscle, that fat burnt away.  As I packed on muscle, I burnt more fat when sleeping.  When I toyed with my diet to "lean", my strength and performance suffered greatly.  I figure, I'll just keep training hard and eating hard, but eating clean.

I'm a smaller guy, so weight and measurements are very subjective.  Ultimately, for my frame, if I can keep putting on lean gains, I think I'd genetically Max out around 185lbs

Here is an athelete than can move some impressive weight on Olympic lifts and is very fast with some good endurance. He is also 5'7 like me and weighs 185lbs



I wouldn't mind looking like that one day. Lol.  Who knows tho.  That type of body doesn't happen overnight

PDU:  I think you are on a good track.  I just don't think you should be focusing on cutting or bulking persay.  I guess if I was forced to pick one and it was black and white, which it isn't, Id say I'm telling you to bulk.  :shrug:  I just offered some advice on what has helped me :shrug:

Mescalean and oxy: thank you for showing some class.  I will try to return the gesture. :cheers:

At the end of the day, we are ALL trying to be the best we can be and achieve our personal goals.  We all have different approaches, different mentalities, different training....but we all are on the same path of striving for something more.  So as much as some of you piss me off :p, I still :raisemyglass: to you all




Telling you right now that top 1 percent of crossfitters don't do just crossfit to get a body like that, I'd tell the same shit to any body builder who thinks mark wallburg really uses his supplement line to put on 40 lbs for a role.... This is maybe where OP can switch it up though. Hypertrophy (later on build strength first dude) to bulk up and HIIT when he wants to cut up. Personally just because it's summer and my appetite always decreases I figured move to full body workouts to lean out a little bit. Personally I couldn't bulk this time of year, the amount of food I would need to eat plus 110 degree weather would make me feel, whats a word better than gross?


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21875197 - 06/29/15 07:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

So all the crossfitters who, when interviewed, explain they got this way from crossfitting are ALL lying?  Sure, some of them have done other things

I mean, we are all human with extensive backgrounds in all sorts of things of course.  So if and when I get like that from crossfit, are you going to say it wasn't the crossfit, it was the years of wrestling or my time with martial arts, or the years I spent p90x ing?

Flawed reasoning in my opinion.  It's like you intentionally want to live with horse blinders on because the overall picture is to much for your ego to handle.

I guess we will see where this takes me in another year :shrug:  I will try to maintain putting on an average of 1.7 of lean muscle per month until I genetically max out

The beauty of crossfit's true philosophy is, if it can make me stronger and better than I was yesterday, it will make its way into programming.  There are no boundaries in this aspect.  Which is why I have been more successful with it compared to any of my past training regimens.

But like you agreed, so much of it comes down to genetics.  I look forward to finding my genetic peak if I can

This is for sure a new road, only 7 months, but it has been the most successful and enjoyable road I have taken yet(fitness wise)


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21875214 - 06/29/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I can't imagine dealing with that kind of hot weather for long stretches.  I'm lucky in that regard. 

I agree with your comments on using hiit to cut :thumbup:


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21875296 - 06/29/15 07:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
So all the crossfitters who, when interviewed, explain they got this way from crossfitting are ALL lying?  Sure, some of them have done other things

I mean, we are all human with extensive backgrounds in all sorts of things of course.  So if and when I get like that from crossfit, are you going to say it wasn't the crossfit, it was the years of wrestling or my time with martial arts, or the years I spent p90x ing?

Flawed reasoning in my opinion.  It's like you intentionally want to live with horse blinders on because the overall picture is to much for your ego to handle.

I guess we will see where this takes me in another year :shrug:  I will try to maintain putting on an average of 1.7 of lean muscle per month until I genetically max out

The beauty of crossfit's true philosophy is, if it can make me stronger and better than I was yesterday, it will make its way into programming.  There are no boundaries in this aspect.  Which is why I have been more successful with it compared to any of my past training regimens.

But like you agreed, so much of it comes down to genetics.  I look forward to finding my genetic peak if I can

This is for sure a new road, only 7 months, but it has been the most successful and enjoyable road I have taken yet(fitness wise)




Yes it actually does have a big role past sport wise, it's called muscle memory, believe it or not it's not a myth as some people think. It's actually a very beautiful adaptation our bodies have. Frauning was a college baseball player, the dude has some fucking guns and a back on him. And did before he did crossfit. It's called a marketing gimmick. I remember when P90X came out and a friend told me he was going to make "mad gains" I made more gains on maintnance in 3 months than he did on the program. For instance fitness magazines use a dirty trick where you photograph the model as in shape and label it as after, and pay then to put on a few lbs of fat they can easily loose and call that the before picture. The fitness industry is full of gimmicks man and crossfit is no exception. And I know you like to label me and anyone who doesn't do crossfit or like it as a "bodybuilder bro" (i think theyre teaching you these phrases to say to non crossfitters in class) I personally hate modern bodybuilding and it drives me nuts how dishonest the supplement industry is "get big like arnold take his brand" bullshit, the man loved his dianabol which I doubt is in the vit pak he sells...That's not to say it may respond to some peoples body types better. If it does cool. But it's rare. The amount of crossfitters I have met that are what would be labeled as "skinny fat" and never really make any serious strength gains. I guarentee you if you didn't play sports or do physical activity shit before you wouldn't be gaining (as much there are newb gains) Whats the most you've weighed before? Just curious to see if this will be the weight where the plateau could possibly happen.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21875380 - 06/29/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

While I agree with muscle memory, if I ever hit a physique like that other dude I posted going to my gym alone, "crossfit" damn well deserves the recognition for it....not my past sports experience.  That and my genes of course.  And according to many personal interviews, it's been successful for others in a similar matter, no matter how much it hurts your ego to hear

And of course supplement companies and health magazines are shady.  I understand the industry very well. I'm not sure why you brought that up.  I'm in full agreement there

Bottom line is...we are all trying to be better than we were yesterday.  Some are trying to cut more, build more...run faster, lift heavier, etc.  all of us are trying to be better than we were yesterday. 

And for me, nothing has been more successful at being better than I was yesterday in the way I want, like crossfit gym and programming :shrug:

Like I said, I think I'll max out around 185lbs if I can continually put on lean gains like I have.  I think I will look similar to that dude I pictured above. As photoshopped as him if I'm lucky :p haha


The heaviest I have ever weighed was 198lbs...but I was packing some serious waste line and pudginess lol


And yes, I crossfit with skinny fat "crossfitters".  I see them make no real strength gains like I have.  I push myself harder and smarter tho I feel. I'm also not there 7 days a week like they are...which all goes back to making sure to have a good amount of rest between intense workouts like I mentioned before.  But more than anything, I genetically put on muscle easy with hard work


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21875445 - 06/29/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

All I am saying is I can find plenty of personal reviews saying ronnie colemans line of products was their saving grace. Has nothing to do with my ego but me having a realistic outlook of what the fad entails money wise. It's simple deductive reasoning. A crossfit seminar is a weekend long to be a "coach" and this is with no prior experience in athletics. For just a level 1 it is 1000 dollar investment. 50 people attend a seminar that's easily 50k in 2 days! pretty nice chunk of money you can not argue that.

On top of that the claim is "were are anti expensive gym bullshit/cliqueness"

Yet if someones doesn't do crossfit there seems to be a "im superior because my lift is more "extreme" attitude" (not aiming that at you) which I'm sure you've seen these guys at your block as I have seen them at my gym hogging a squat rack for kipping pullups and being as loud and obnoxious as possible so YOU know just exactly how hard they are working out. Then the other part, the memberships, which idk what they charge up in canadia for you guys but down here easily 200-300 dollars a month.... The nicest health club in my area runs about 200.... massages weight room tennis court lap pool weight room and even HIIT classes held in the mornings. Yoga all that shit. I payed 350 for 2 years at a chain gym and continue to make solid gains. I refuse to buy into it.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21875531 - 06/29/15 08:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Well I agree it's a great money making chain for the founder.  Kudos to him lol.  If I could make millions selling it, I would.

We have gone around and around in circles with this.  I have met shitty martial arts trainers, shitty wrestling coaches, shitty personal trainers and shitty crossfit trainers.  Anyone can easily get "certified" in similar fashion, or go to school for a few months to become a personal trainer.  You can find shitty anywhere.  This doesn't make all personal trainers shitty OR all crossfit trainers shitty


I have seen more loud and obnoxious people at golds gym where I worked out semi regularly when I was younger, than I have at my gym.  That's from my personal scope of what I have seen.  I'm sure I'm bound to run into some "obnoxious" crossfitters, yes.  It's bound to happen

My 3 trainers I deal with regularly, have been personally trainers and elite sports athletes for many many years.  They have their level 2 crossfit certification, which in my opinion doesn't mean that much on its own except they can open their own gym.  But they have extensive certifications and awards in Olympic weightlifting, gymnastics, etc


They are very knowledgeable and I have yet to see or hear of any injuries in the 7 months I've been there.  And I have become pretty tight with everyone.  That's one thing I like, is all the member support. It's great in that aspect


But I essentially have a personal trainer in and out of the doors.  I text with them.  I'm going to go to brutal workout on Canada day which will be for donation for charity and then going to a bbq.  I love that aspect


It's worth the 120 a month as supposed to 50 a month at any of our gyms in town I used to pay.  The results I'm getting alone are worth it :shrug:


Well we will see where I go with it.  The beauty is, if I see a weakness in myself performance wise or aesthetically, that I want to work on, I can go to my trainers and say "hey...I'm lacking here.  What can I do about it?" Or "Id like to do this". And they will kick my ass in every way I requested lol

My weaknesses right now, performance wise:

20lbs medicine ball wall shots/throws.  They gas me like no other.  They kill me when they are in a workout somewhere.  I really need to work on my stamina with those

My front squat strength.  I find regardless of how much lower body we do, my upper body is starting to take off and leave my lower behind.  I need to start a heavy squat program

My traps are weak. I need to get those shruggers stronger

Skill wise....I need more work and more confidence and more flexibility, in front racking properly. I'm using lots of arm muscle to hold bar in place


Skill wise...I also need to really work on my jump rope.  Double unders are sloppy and I suck at them. I fumble through them and it's frustrating.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21875580 - 06/29/15 08:53 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Pause at the top for your shrugs man, that's what helped me and I can rep 315, that time under stress.

just out of curiosity do they ever have you do aesthetic lifts for supplementation? I see you say shrugs which is not really functional and I have never seen any crossfitter ever do or mention shrugs. It's always deadlift or how many "pullups" they did in how many minutes. I'd be shocked to go into a block and see someone doing heavy curls at the end of a workout. If I see the over all image change for the "sport" then yeah but the image held by it isn't a good one right now. It doesn't help either when you see someone touting crossfit with horrible form criticizing those bros down at the LA fitness (and no i refuse to work out there too not my gym of choice lol). If your gym is really as strict and professional as you say, its up to gyms like you to inform people of the fucktards trying to make a quick buck with that very easy 2 days certification (2 days compared to a 9 months of online school for a personal trainer cert.... come on man lol) and show that proper technique can be implemented into timed workouts. And I will admit I did see something stupid at the gym today. I can't call it dips, its like he only used his shoulders to dip. Probably the worst form I have seen in a long time, at my preferred gym. I agree you see it everywhere.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21875591 - 06/29/15 08:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Probably benefit from a body re-comp (cut fat) and then clean bulk.
Or if you don't care about BF%, bulk hard and cut once you've packed on some muscle.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21875691 - 06/29/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I'll try out the pause. Thanks :smile:  Shrugs and hang power cleans are great for the traps.

Yes, asthetic lifts do happen in programming, but generally only by request.  But I do see them make their way into standard workouts once in awhile

I told them recently that Id like to do some more isolated movements for supplementation between or before and after "wod"s.  They gave me some great ideas and have even joined me in some of my workouts.

And I know I work my core like a badass in almost everything I do there, but besides knees to elbows, toes to bars and sit-ups, there is no real isolated core movements.  So I really want to start implementing a "core day" one a week

The support they offer there has been so great.  And they do a lot of specialized workouts between class times which I have been starting to join in on

Going to start joining them on the smolov squat program


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21875735 - 06/29/15 09:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
So I really want to start implementing a "core day" one a week





I just started using an Ab-roller and it seems like a really solid (and difficult) ab exercise.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21875741 - 06/29/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

+1 for ab roller. Nothing burns the fuck out of my core like one of those bad boys.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21875777 - 06/29/15 09:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


, its up to gyms like you to inform people of the fucktards trying to make a quick buck





It's up to me to do what is best for me.  I spread on here how it's been successful for me for my goals.  That's where it ends for me.  What works for me may not work for others

It's up to the individual to use their own head and search out the legitimacy for themselves.  And while on the subject, it's up to them to workout smart and safely.  The responsibility, in the long run, lies on the individual

I think word is spreading around town. People seem to be flocking and the business is already getting the attention of the city.  They have been nominated for 5 different business awards this year :shrug:  they offer multiple free trial classes and are vocal about steering people away from the negative stigmas associated with crossfit


And in an Interview, this is what glassman wants. He has no rules on franchising.  You can open up a crossfit gym right next door to an existing crossfit gym if you'd like.  He says "the strong one will survive" lol. I like it :p.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: jsncrs]
    #21875790 - 06/29/15 09:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jsncrs said:
+1 for ab roller. Nothing burns the fuck out of my core like one of those bad boys.





I'll have to buy one. Thanks


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21876484 - 06/30/15 03:38 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I have no problem with crossfit in principle. I actually like some parts of the crossfit movement. It is essentially just the conglomeration of lots of different types of physical training all into one. "Hey guys, let's do power-lifting, weightlifting, running, gymnastics and kettle-bells all in one go, with light weights and no break." They have some pretty tough workouts to complete, and a lot of crossfit workouts are actually fairly effective for developing anaerobic fitness.

What they are not very effective for, however, is getting good at any one thing in particular. After all, crossfit is just cross-training, it is unspecific by definition. The best way to get good at weightlifting is to do weightlifting, the best way to get good at power-lifting is to do power-lifting, the best way to get good at gymnastics is to do gymnastics, the best way to get good at distance running is to do distance running, but if you do all of them at the same time, you'll limit your improvements in all of them. When you combine lots of different movements into one, you don't get really good at any of them, you just get semi-decent at lots of them. If this is what you are aiming for, then crossfit will provide, but many people are sold by the illusion that crossfit will make you really good at something. The best crossfitters in the world are quite impressive, but they are nowhere near the strongest athletes in the world, they are nowhere near having the best endurance in the world, they are nowhere near the most flexible in the world. Training lots of different things at the same time will limit your ability to be exceptional at any one thing in particular.

You cannot master 12 different arts at the same time. The best way to get really good at something is to focus on that one thing, and only that one thing, for a long period of time.

As a side comment, I actually think that those aiming to be competitive crossfitters are better off focusing on strength and power for a while, before adding any of the endurance or fitness stuff to the mix, as it's easier to maintain strength when improving endurance, than it is to maintain endurance when improving strength. It's also a lot harder to get strong when your body has to adapt to endurance training simultaneously. Dimitry Klokov is a perfect example of this, he's done pretty well after a short conversion from weightlifting to crossfit, he's way stronger than any other crossfitter around, and it won't take him long to develop comparable cardio-vascular fitness; a professional distance runner would have struggled converting to crossfit big-time.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21876554 - 06/30/15 04:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Hey guys, let's do power-lifting, weightlifting, running, gymnastics and kettle-bells all in one go, with light weights and no break."





If this is what crossfit is to you, you seriously misguided

The very definition of crossfit is that it's always changing and encompassing new things.  But as been discussed a thousand times, because anyone can essentially open a gym, programming is going to be different from crossfit gym to crossfit gym

I lift heavy some days, low reps.  And I lift light another day high reps.  I do strength 5x5 sets of a particular lift(tomorrow is bench btw) and then finish off the day with hiit with box jumps, wall balls and rowing for example. Other days it's tire flips out the back door with rope climbs.

You presumptions are pretty standard tho amongst most weight room dwellers.  It's so tiring though :/

Yep, it's cross training at its finest. I'm looking to be better in overall health, fitness strength and even looks...better than I was yesterday.  my crossfit gym and programming has done that and continues to do that for me weekly and has been more effective for me than anything else I've done.  I'm averaging 1.7lbs of lean gains a month.  We will see how long I can keep it up. My strength increases weekly.  My endurance is improving.  And I get comments daily on how different I looks.  It's doing something effective :shrug:

I shared my results and asked pdu if he wanted my advice.  I went into giving my advice fully knowing that certain people with find something to turn this into a "crossfit sucks masked advice is terrible" type convo :shrug:  I proceeded anyway

I think his bulking and cutting topic has gotten way off tangent.  Don't you think? 

I told him not to think about bulking or cutting.  Eat for performance.  Eat hard, but eat clean.  Train hard.  Get rest.  Essentially what it all boiled down too

I think you are on the right track pdu.  I don't think your workout regimen is half bad either.  Id talk to mescalean about incorporating some Olympic lifts in your training possibly.  They are great


On a side note:  I find my trainers kind of funny.  When they sense an overwhelming bitch fest about a certain exercise, it seems to make its way into daily workouts often.  Lol.  So everyone started bitching about running and how we hate it.  Well, I've been doing a lot of running lately :lol:

The other day it was 50 strict pullups, 100 pushups, followed by a 5k run

No heavy weight that day, but man my chest was shot


And yes you are right...some of the workouts are down right sinister.  Our trainers make a lot of their own programming, but we do the benchmark ones too.  Hero wods are usually the toughest.  One of the hardest for me was one called "the seven"

"D.T." Is another hard one but I really like it.  All barbell work.  Very tough

Soon I will be attempting "Kalsu". It's legendary for being a very mentally and physically challenging workout.


I have to say, that's another thing I like about this crossfit.  I love that pushing myself beyond my limits shit. The navy seal hell week type shit.  I thrive to be tested that way.  There is a sick satisfaction in surviving some of these workouts.  I've had to throw in the towel on many because my form was about to go to shit.  Attempt the same workout 3 months later and I kill it.  Very satisfying


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Edited by Masked (06/30/15 04:42 AM)


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OfflineMescalean
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21876601 - 06/30/15 05:11 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I love how multiple users repeat what I have said about crossfit (not bashing it but where it actually lacks) and it continues to just get denied denied. It's like arguing religion for christ sake with some people


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21876623 - 06/30/15 05:25 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I love how it will obviously always be the same circle jerk on these boards and somehow this is validation for you :smirk:


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21876630 - 06/30/15 05:28 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If you haven't joined a gym already I would sign up. I find training with people motivating and you get to know everyone and can potentially find a training partner to train with (Plus its good to learn from people with more experience than you)

IMO , What you need is high volume training & frequency.

Example, I train for around 90 minutes weight lifting, first exercise focus is on compound movement and following exercises for hypertrophy.

If you have mastered technique for bench / deadlift / squat / ohp you should have no problem increasing strength & muscle size in a calorie surplus. Progressively overload each session, i.e more weight, reps, sets, exercises.

I remember when I started years ago I was determined to gain size and I would train really hard and push myself, after training I would make sure I hit my calorie & macro targets and make sure I get enough sleep (Recover for the next training session).

Disregard love handles & a little extra fat gain, once the strength and size come around you will be better off than had you stopped bulking and started cutting.

3 days a week isn't enough.... 5 days would be best, 2 days off rest per week is plenty.

If you are forced to train 3 days a week only then usually full body upper/lower split is best program (Do some googling)


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: MR14]
    #21876636 - 06/30/15 05:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


I would train really hard and push myself, after training I would make sure I hit my calorie & macro targets and make sure I get enough sleep (Recover for the next training session).





Some solid advice :smile:


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: MR14]
    #21876863 - 06/30/15 07:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MR14 said:
If you haven't joined a gym already I would sign up. I find training with people motivating and you get to know everyone and can potentially find a training partner to train with (Plus its good to learn from people with more experience than you)





I live outside of town and have a basic homegym set up (barbell, bench, squat rack) - I am very glad to workout at home and don't plan on making the switch anytime soon.

Quote:

  If you have mastered technique for bench / deadlift / squat / ohp you should have no problem increasing strength & muscle size in a calorie surplus. Progressively overload each session, i.e more weight, reps, sets, exercises.




I can't claim to have mastered any of them - but I am becoming comfortable with all of them.

I am past the point where I would be able to overload every session. I add weight every 3 sessions/once per week (5lbs).

Quote:

3 days a week isn't enough.... 5 days would be best, 2 days off rest per week is plenty.

If you are forced to train 3 days a week only then usually full body upper/lower split is best program (Do some googling)




Everything I have read/watched indicates otherwise. A 3 day fullbody workout has more time under tension for all body parts than a split. Time under tension is what a novice needs in order to build strength first.

Quote:

Should I train full-body or a body-part split?
For the first several months of weight training, beginners can expect to raise the weight they are lifting in a linear progression, without any increased rest time needed - this means you will get regularly stronger day after day.

Beginners to weight training are defined by how quickly they can recover from exercise. For this reason, as a beginner, it is best to get as much work in as possible each week. If you do a full-body routine three times per week, that means you're training your entire body roughly 12 times per month (144 times per year). A body-part split, hitting different body parts over a week is going to train your whole body one (maybe two) times per week, which is 4-8 times per month (48-96 times per year).

This review suggests strength gains in beginners are optimized by training three times a week. As one gains more experience and ability, a two-day split (like push/pull or upper/lower) is suggested as the optimal set-up.




Reddit FAQ with links.

Point taken though - I will switch programs when i've stalled with what I am doing. I've stated that I am not planning on switching programs until the end of summer at the earliest. I am happy with the progress i've been making.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21878561 - 06/30/15 03:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
I love how it will obviously always be the same circle jerk on these boards and somehow this is validation for you :smirk:





Couldn't I called crossfit the same thing though?

and i did not see before that op was only going 3 days a week wtf man definetly not enough. What helped me gain size was a 3 way split with compounds followed by aesthetic work such as curls or tris. 3 day split as in chest shoulder tri, then back bi's and forearms, then legs and core then repeat for another 3 days with 1 day of rest.


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Edited by Mescalean (06/30/15 03:18 PM)


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21878949 - 06/30/15 04:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

I suppose fitness in general, like any large movement or following, is going to be plagued with different ideologies and clicky circle jerks :shrug:  In this tiny subsection of the Internet called the "physical and mental well being" shroomery forum, your circle jerk outnumbers my solo jerk.  :smirk:  and again, if this is somehow validation for your opinions, well all the power to you friend :cheers:

PDU:  I work out 3 days a week on average.  The odd time I shock the system and go 5 to 7 days straight and take a week off after. But in general, I work out 3 days a week on average


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21878972 - 06/30/15 04:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

If you lift it, gainz will come


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21878985 - 06/30/15 04:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Doobie Dude said:
If you lift it, gainz will come





:rofl:  :raisemyglass:

So very simply true


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21878991 - 06/30/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

cut cut cut


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21880344 - 06/30/15 09:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Sorru for derailing this further, but wanted to agree with you on something


That whole thing about power and Olympic lifters adjusting to endurance and crossfit better...totally true

Mat Fraser who is the favourite to win the 2015 crossfit games, who coincidentally is also 5'7 or so like me and 180lbs...he came from an Olympic lifting background.  Been doing it since he was 12.  He talks about how he was so put off by crossfit at the beginning.  Eventually, he drank the koolaid and after only 8 months training crossfit, made it to regionals and placed well.  A year and half later, he has made it to the games and is the favourite to win.  He is a fucking beast.  His snatch is 315.  He sure sits in the basement for a long time on his snatch.  But it looks damn good.  He was shooting for a spot in the 2016 Olympics but broke one of his vertebrae


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21880624 - 06/30/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Broke his vertebrae cause CROSSFIT


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21880665 - 06/30/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

No, while he was training for Olympic weight lifting.  It's why he gravitated towards crossfit

Nice try derp


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21880715 - 06/30/15 10:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Lies and slander


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21880734 - 06/30/15 10:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

:smirk:


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21881874 - 07/01/15 07:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah a strength or power background goes a long way in competitive crossfit.

Quote:

He was shooting for a spot in the 2016 Olympics but broke one of his vertebrae




For a 180lb guy, a 315 snatch is pretty impressive, but I don't know how it's going to get you to the Olympics.

Also, having just looked up his lift, it was with straps. Still very impressive, but I suppose this is just me voicing my irrational distaste for the cliche phrases that are thrown around so easily: "He had hopes for the Olympics" or "He was an Olympic hopeful" or "I'm training for the Olympics". It seems like nowadays anybody who competes in a sport earns the status "Olympic hopeful".


Edited by secondorder (07/01/15 07:40 AM)


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21882005 - 07/01/15 08:35 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Better to shoot high then too low, amirite?


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21882724 - 07/01/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

He is my height.  I think i'll genetically max out around the same weight.  I'm a similar frame.  Time will tell

and yes, for his height and weight, it's impressive, regardless of straps.  Is there better, of course...but they can't do half the other shit he can I'm sure.  I'd be very satisfied with my "health" and "fitness" if I won the crossfit games and had snatches and cleans in the 300's :shrug:

I never said he was going to olympics.  I said he was shooting for it.  Nothing wrong with shooting high

"In 2008, Mat Fraser packed his bags and moved to the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, Colo. The Olympic weightlifter trained there for two years before he broke his L5 vertebrae while preparing to compete in Romania at the Junior World Weightlifting Championship.

“It was just a combination of lifting too heavy, too often and without the right preparation,” Fraser said.

The injury required surgery and shattered his dreams of earning a spot on Team USA for the 2016 Olympics."


you missed my entire point.  I was agreeing that the strength guys that transition to crossfit seem to be at the top of the pile.  Mat Fraser was just one example of this


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OfflineLucisM
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: The Doobie Dude]
    #21885147 - 07/01/15 09:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Doobie Dude said:
If you lift it, gainz will come



 

Jesus died for our gains.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Masked]
    #21893005 - 07/03/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Masked said:
Sorru for derailing this further, but wanted to agree with you on something


That whole thing about power and Olympic lifters adjusting to endurance and crossfit better...totally true

Mat Fraser who is the favourite to win the 2015 crossfit games, who coincidentally is also 5'7 or so like me and 180lbs...he came from an Olympic lifting background.  Been doing it since he was 12.  He talks about how he was so put off by crossfit at the beginning.  Eventually, he drank the koolaid and after only 8 months training crossfit, made it to regionals and placed well.  A year and half later, he has made it to the games and is the favourite to win.  He is a fucking beast.  His snatch is 315.  He sure sits in the basement for a long time on his snatch.  But it looks damn good.  He was shooting for a spot in the 2016 Olympics but broke one of his vertebrae





Telling you guys will start seeing a lot of olympic lifters come in and dominate in crossfit. Having talked to a few who I've had the pleasure of working out with their general idea is "shit if im cleaning 500lbs" and there are dudes struggling to do 350...." I love watching the little asian powerlifters especially the chinese because it's just like holy fucking shit, the dude is like 5'5" little asian man and getting 400 lbs over his head. powerful little ninjas.

Op just eat big and lift big. That is the one thing we can all agree on I'm sure. Rice is your friend. Rice chicken and brocolli will become your best fucking friends either. Compound lifts. Also weed never hurt any lifter. Ever. The estrogen thing is a bs study from the 80's under the reagan dyna... administration and it actually helps a lot for muscle recover my relaxing the fibers and stimulating appetite when you work out. Some people even enjoy smoking before the gym. Little caffeine, a dab or too and some aggressive rapid fire style rap and im in the zone. You gotta find your zone man.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Mescalean]
    #21893363 - 07/03/15 04:12 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah broccoli, chicken and rice for the win :thumbup:

Man, I can never imagine cleaning 500.  No desire to either :lol:

I'll be happy if I ever hit 315.  Long way to go though :/

Id be happy with 500lbs deadlift, 315 clean, 225 snatch, 275 bench, and anything over 275 for clean and jerk.  I think they are all attainable and realistic, time will tell.  But when and if I do hit all those one day, am I going to say "I'm done, no more for me"? Lol doubtful :p.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21894240 - 07/03/15 07:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The purpose of cutting as a "skinnyfat" is due to calorie partitioning. If you have an excess of bodyfat and eat a caloric surplus a higher percentage of the surplus will be allocated to creating fat reserves before lean muscle tissue.

This is why i asked the question.

However, the difference this makes in someone who is 15% and someone who is 25%bf is possibly fairly negligible.




Fat is not really an issue. The more fat you have the more energy can be devoted to building muscle tissue. 

 
Quote:

Right - so if i did SS for 3 weeks, my physique would be vastly different than that posted? Give me a break. I actually started with SS for the first couple weeks before taking a layoff to get through finals and then starting up on ICF.

    Quote:
    Switch to Starting Strength and get your numbers up.



Please explain why SS is better than ICF?

(they are the same, minus accessories!)




SS is 3x5, ICF is 5x5. Also the accessories in ICF are pointless for a beginner. Barbell shurgs, close grip bench, cable crunch, etc... All fairly pointless exercises, especially as a novice. Also, SS has cleans...a far superior exercise that effectively replaces rows/shrugs. 3x5 allows for greater progression in weight. 5x5 is too much volume for progression to occur for very long. In the next edition of SS the squat rep scheme will be changed to 5x3 from 3x5 so that is another option.

I have a pic on here somewhere... All I've did was SS for 4 months and 5/3/1 for 4 months (and judo on off days as my "cardio") and my physique turned out pretty nice.


Quote:

Why 5/3/1? I've heard good things about madcow and texas method and heard 5/3/1 critisized because it is too low volume. How about PHUL or a 6 day "brosplit"?




5/3/1 has plenty of volume under the Big But Boring version of that routine. There is also more room for accessory work.

 




Quote:


Anyways - how would you determine when to stop bulking?... Is it unwise to do a slow bulk from now until next April?...




This is up to personal preference. But a solid 1 year slow bulk would probably be a good start.


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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Titus_Pullo]
    #21894598 - 07/03/15 09:14 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Alright - good reply!

I am happy with the ICF accessories - close grip bench press and skull crushers have definitely helped with my bench press and OHP. Although shrugs do seem fairly... pointless. Curls are helping with the bicep definition - can't complain.

I lift at home and don't have an olympic barbell set therefor no cleans for me.

Point taken though - I appreciate you taking the time to respond. :smile:

EDIT: 1 year slow bulk is what I was looking to do anyways.

EDIT2: I've heard of 5/3/1 "big but boring" ... will look into it. Thanks for the heads up.


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Edited by PDU (07/03/15 09:15 PM)


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OfflineTitus_Pullo


Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 461
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21896939 - 07/04/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Skull crushers are a decent tricep accessory but most of your tricep growth will come from OHP and the bench press. Check out mark rippetoes video on the skull crusher


Edited by Titus_Pullo (07/04/15 02:27 PM)


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OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
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Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Titus_Pullo]
    #21897108 - 07/04/15 03:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Titus_Pullo said:
Skull crushers are a decent tricep accessory but most of your tricep growth will come from OHP and the bench press. Check out mark rippetoes video on the skull crusher




Rippetoes video is great, although I'll check it out again (it's how i learned the skull crusher) - My point was that tricep strength was an early limiter in my presses. Both CGBP and skullcrushers are progressing great with regards to strength and i feel like it's translated into advancing both pressing movements.


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