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OfflinePDU
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Bulk or Cut
    #21717567 - 05/24/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Looking for a second opinion here - I am receiving mixed messages from reddit.

I am doing Ice Cream Fitness (ICF) (full body beginners routine, 3x weekly for 1 month) and follow the workout as specified except swapping skull crushers instead of tricep extensions, and no cable crunches or hyperextensions. - As per recommendations from people in this forum I have added: Dumbbell Fly's and Lateral raises after every workout. I add weight to the major compound lifts every 3 workouts (once per week) although right now can progress DL's every workout.


Current numbers for 5x5:


Bench - 100# :mad:
Squat - 175#
DL - 240#
Row - 90#

Height:  5' 11.5"
Weight: 171.2lbs

**Additionally - I usually cycle to work + recreationally (although haven't got into a routine due to lack of work...) Conservative estimate would be 100km of vigorous cycling weekly between now and September.

I was advised to bulk initially - and now people at reddit are calling me fat and saying i should cut to 10-12% BF before bulking. (estimated BF 20-25%)

On top of that - I am confused about how to calculate my TDEE. According to most online calculators I end up with:

Basal Metabolic Rate: 1769 cals/day
Body Mass Index: 23.99
TDEE: 2432 cals/day (if i am lifting 3x weekly.)

These projections DO NOT include any cycling or physical labour I am doing. Rough approximations of calorie burn from 1hr cycling is 700cals.

Thoughts on replacing calories burned from Cardio?

It seems to be that If i can calculate maintenance caloric needs using a scale and tracking weight gain/loss for 2-3 weeks, that I should be able to eat at maintenance and count on being in deficit because of the calories burned cycling. At 700 calories per 25kms, that would put me at roughly 2800+ calorie deficit per week, meaning 3/4lbs weight loss.

I don't even know where that puts me if I want to bulk.

Honestly - because it's summer, I have free time for meal prep and am relatively active with work, Id rather bulk now and cut while I am in school. Apparently because I am currently at high BF this would be a bad idea.....

What should i do?



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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21717642 - 05/24/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Its not that scientific. Don't eat carbs and do workout. I don't know man.


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Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi


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InvisibletheRAPeutic
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21717704 - 05/24/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

bulk. you dont have any muscle to cut too...


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: theRAPeutic]
    #21717713 - 05/24/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

theRAPeutic said:
bulk. you dont have any muscle to cut too...




THIS! - Totally agree.

Seems like really contradictory advice over at reddit and i don't know what to make of it.

EDIT: Also really happy with my lifting progression and energy levels.


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Edited by PDU (05/24/15 02:36 PM)


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OfflineMoxyOx
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21718095 - 05/24/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Motherfucker just eat. All this cutting and bulking is for pretty boys. Work out and get strong, that's the objective no?


--------------------
No one behind, no one ahead.
The path the ancients cleared has closed.
And the other path, everyone's path,
easy and wide, goes nowhere.
I am alone and find my way.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: MoxyOx]
    #21718316 - 05/24/15 05:39 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MoxyOx said:
Motherfucker just eat. All this cutting and bulking is for pretty boys. Work out and get strong, that's the objective no?




  • Functional strength is secondary goal.
  • Primary goal is to build shoulders and chest and achieve a better shoulder/hip ratio.


I read Here that the best way to go about is to do a long term clean bulk, which i have no problem with.

I've been taken aback by the body fat estimations, as i'd have guess that it is lower than others are estimating. I actually don't care and don't ever want "chiseled" abs, but would like a leaner midsection than i have now. They make it seem like a bulk with my current BF percentage that I am going to turn into a blimp... but i can't see that happening. In all reality I am relatively lean and have a firm midsection!

EDIT: I am just trying to figure out how much i should be eating in order to progress with my lifts and gain some mass. Once I have an accurate ballpark i'll likely play it by ear.... In the past, i know I haven't eaten enough and/or consumed enough protein and experienced chronic fatigue. I'd like to get it right this time around.


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Edited by PDU (05/24/15 05:41 PM)


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21718358 - 05/24/15 05:53 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. Every day. Get it from real food not whey protein. Then no carbs yes exercise like I said earlier!


--------------------

Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21718386 - 05/24/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Matt87 said:
1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. Every day. Get it from real food not whey protein. Then no carbs yes exercise like I said earlier!




Twice you have totally missed the point of this thread. Thanks for nothing.


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21718431 - 05/24/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

No, I got it. You don't know what your doing and instead of having a discussion with me which could benefit you, you ignored me. You never even really asked a question in your op. Have fun doing math or whatever.


--------------------

Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21718469 - 05/24/15 06:38 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

The title is the question.

I already work out - as stated. No advice needed.

Not sure why you are talking about carbs.


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21718886 - 05/24/15 09:12 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I'll just dip on outta here then. Good luck.


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Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Matt87]
    #21718918 - 05/24/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Matt87 said:
I'll just dip on outta here then. Good luck.




No worries. Graceful recovery - I am glad we didn't argue. Respect.


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InvisibletheRAPeutic
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU] * 1
    #21719134 - 05/24/15 10:46 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

i dunno what people on reddit said, probably to cut, but you dont have enough muscle and or bodyfat to need to cut. you could if you wanted, but you're gonna be skin and bones. i would bulk for 6 plus months then when you have a solid foundation of muscle, you can cut. you can keep the fat gains minimal if you do it right. i been bulking from almost a year and ive no intention of cutting anytime soon.


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OfflineDeckard_Cain
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21721333 - 05/25/15 03:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I'd say keep bulking. You look about 18%bf to me or less. If you don't have strong abs they won't show till fairly low bf levels anyway. Try adding pushups throughout the week to help your bench strength. I got similar DL to BP ratio issue and the pushups are helping me - shoulders getting stronger too.

Those calorie calculators are estimates. Start weighing all your food and counting macros. Then monitor your weight for a couple weeks while keeping food intake steady - you will know by the scale if you should lower/increase/keep the food intake where it is. That is probably best way to do it because estimating calories burned during aerobic exercise like biking can be fairly difficult (intensity levels and all). We also have slight variations in metabolic rates (though fairly slight)

Good luck :wink:

Matt87 if a human stops eating carbs they will die soon. Please do not recommend that to any one ever again.


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OfflineMatt87
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Deckard_Cain]
    #21721379 - 05/25/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Not literally. Duh. I've been a hardcore athlete for years. Most people can't even comprehend the level of effort I can put out. I've only gotten super lean and looked the part of the super athlete since cutting way down on carbs. It seems like the opening poster is exercising a lot so that could make the difference for him as well. I was trying to help and had already excused myself from this conversation. Don't be a dickhead...there is more than one path to the same goal.


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Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: Deckard_Cain]
    #21721893 - 05/25/15 05:47 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deckard_Cain said:
Those calorie calculators are estimates. Start weighing all your food and counting macros. Then monitor your weight for a couple weeks while keeping food intake steady - you will know by the scale if you should lower/increase/keep the food intake where it is. That is probably best way to do it because estimating calories burned during aerobic exercise like biking can be fairly difficult (intensity levels and all). We also have slight variations in metabolic rates (though fairly slight)





Already doing this (although just started) - the initial TDEE had me at 3050cals before adjusting for cycling. After going for a 2 hour ride i was supposed to ingest 4000+ calories and it seemed like too much.

Accordingly - I've adjusted by underestimating my activity level and I've come out with 2740cals/day in order to do a slow bulk (0.5lbs/week) - This number seems reasonable and so far my scale is in agreement (gaining trend over 4 days). It will be interesting to see if the trend continues over the next couple of weeks.

I am trying to figure out a percentage/multiple to decrease Myfitnesspal and my cycling apps "estimated calorie burn" - I think 30-40% isn't unreasonable....

So far so good - I feel like i've learned an immense amount over the past week or so. Feeling great. Explosive strength during my workout yesterday - actually feel like working out everyday now.

**just received protein supp. in the mail.

Since starting counting calories i've been consistently under on protein requirements on a daily basis.


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OfflineMescalean
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: theRAPeutic]
    #21721965 - 05/25/15 06:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

theRAPeutic said:
bulk. you dont have any muscle to cut too...




No offense by this either, I just notice new guys are always so quick to get "shredded" you don't want to cut up to 13 inch arms if that. work on your heavy compounds too


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21723745 - 05/26/15 06:51 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I am going to jump in here and add one more vote to the already overwhelming consensus. Bulk! I have never been too interested in trying to look better from working out, I just do it to improve at my sport, but in doing so, I've noticed some things. Bulking doesn't mean getting fat, it means gaining weight, and if you are pushing weights hard enough and eating clean enough, then it is possible (although difficult) to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Although my weight has fluctuated significantly over the past few years, I am stronger now than I ever have been, and the general correlation of strength to muscle mass, for me, has held true. As I get stronger, I generally have more muscles mass, and generally, the more muscle mass I have, the lower my body fat percentage is. I have never tried to cut for more than a few weeks, and I rarely focus on changing my body-fat percentage, my focus has always been on improving my abilities: Increasing my 1RM's, increasing my power output, improving my balance or speed, strengthening my weak areas, balancing muscle mass in disproportionate areas etc. I've never been super lean or had a great looking body, but as I improve my abilities, my body begins to look better. If your abilities change, then your body changes with them. Improve your strength, and your muscles will get bigger, and as some of the posters have already mentioned, even if you don't lose any fat, if your muscles grow then you will start to look better. You can build a better shoulder/hip ratio (as is your primary goal) without losing any body-fat. Just get a bigger bench and overhead press.

It's not super important to count calories and measure macros etc. If you want to gain weight, eat lots of food all the time, if you want to lose weight, don't eat as much, or burn up more calories. If you want to get leaner, cut out all sugars, and a bit of the total carbohydrate. With these simple principles I've managed to have very good control over my weight. Your body will get what it needs from your diet, but will be shaped more by what you do, than what you eat.




TL;DR Stop focusing on how you look and the fine details of your diet, dieting is fairly simple. Start focusing on working hard, crushing weights and improving your abilities, and your body will follow accordingly.


Edited by secondorder (05/26/15 06:51 AM)


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: secondorder]
    #21723777 - 05/26/15 07:07 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Well thought out and logically present post secondorder, thank you.

Although listing my primary goal as shoulder/waist ratio makes me sound vain - I, like you, am also just trying to improve myself athletically primarily (despite what i said above). That said - I admit that i've grown very dissatisfied with my upper/lower body disparity as i've matured and do desperately want to even out. I guess I am vain! Nevertheless, I am also training for strength... and like you said, pursuing athletic goals in the gym will result in improved physicality and physique essentially no matter what... 100% pursuing that over defined triceps or piddlyshit.

I do disagree about the diet though - without tracking my calories I find it easy to eat WAY too much, and infact i've probably been eating substantially above my TDEE my entire life. I have had an enormous appetite my entire life, and although it waned this past year due to a drop in activity levels (going to university), I am surprised by how many calories i can truly eat before reaching satiety. It explains my love handles IMO.

Although I do not want to be obsessive about it long term, I am finding the exercise useful in the short term and plan to continue doing it. Seeing how different levels of macro's make me feel, food timing, and general portion sizing, control and meal awareness.

Thanks everyone - this thread has been successful! Opinions very much appreciated.


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: Bulk or Cut [Re: PDU]
    #21723852 - 05/26/15 07:36 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I do disagree about the diet though - without tracking my calories I find it easy to eat WAY too much, and infact i've probably been eating substantially above my TDEE my entire life. I have had an enormous appetite my entire life, and although it waned this past year due to a drop in activity levels (going to university), I am surprised by how many calories i can truly eat before reaching satiety. It explains my love handles IMO.

Although I do not want to be obsessive about it long term, I am finding the exercise useful in the short term and plan to continue doing it. Seeing how different levels of macro's make me feel, food timing, and general portion sizing, control and meal awareness.




Yeah fair enough, the details of dieting matter more for some more than for others. I was just trying to point out how powerful working out can be for changing a person's body. I've seen so many people over the years with absolutely awful diets, some who overeat severely, transform their bodies into lean machines. Michael Phelps is not alone in this respect.

One of my favorite quotes from a track and field athlete I admire: "There is no such thing as over-training, just under-eating" Needless to say, he was a large man haha.


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