|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
bubbleswag
Stranger
Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 3
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
|
2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water?
#21712876 - 05/23/15 02:20 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
so yesterday swim and his friend had 2 tabs from same batch, his friend triped out, but swim didnt. swim drank some tap water before and after dropping. Swim is wondering if the chlorine in tap water could cancel out the lsd in his system. If not swim was wondering if anyone else has any explanations for this (swim has done lsd many times, 3 months ago being his last time)
|
I_was_the_walrus
eggshells



Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: bubbleswag]
#21712900 - 05/23/15 02:39 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Are you on any medications/anti-depressants?
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
|
Tap water wouldn't cancel it out. Was the tab actually LSD? Was it bitter?
--------------------
|
wolf8312
Pennywise


Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,356
Last seen: 4 days, 4 hours
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: Achillita] 1
#21713101 - 05/23/15 05:48 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I seriously doubt that the tap water destroyed the LSD in that amount of time, but for anyone interested in OChem I found an interesting post on bluelight disscusing why chlorine is so detrimental to the LSD molecule.
He didnt really mention anything about how quick chlorine will react with the LSD but he makes it clear enough that chlorine even miniscule amounts is not something you want anywhere near your LSD.
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/112407-LSD-and-Tap-Water
Quote:
Adapted from "Mechanism in Organic Chemistry" by Peter Sykes & "Organic Chemistry" by John McMurry
I realise you probably understand much of this already, but to hopefully broaden the general reader understanding, I’ve started with some pretty basic stuff. Although it might not initially seem like a difficult task, it has proved to be quite daunting, as to grasp it properly, it is necessary to have an understanding of nucleophilic addition chemistry, and more importantly, the effect of substitutions on rates of addition. All pretty deep stuff. So I’ll take it as far as I dare. Maybe Biscuit can fill in the gaps, and better still, pull me up on anything incorrectly or badly explained. Smileyfish may like to correct or expand on Chlorine in tap water.
Here goes….
Chlorine in Tap Water
Chlorine is a particularly reactive element, often more reactive than the other halogens including fluorine (try sticking a fluoride ion on a benzene ring). The reactivity of the many Chlorine reactive species’ is why most harmful bacteria present in our drinking water catchments, reservoirs and dams, are killed before the water reaches us. Chlorine in tap water is also the reason some 5,000 or more Americans die from cancer every year, although many more would die without it. As it very soluble, chlorine gas is usually bubbled through water. Free chlorine can also be achieved by adding hypochlorite/ate salts.
Whether chlorination is the principle means of water purification, or is employed as a support for ozone treatment (as with our local tap water), the idea is to add (slightly) more chlorine than is considered necessary. Another means of chlorination uses monochloroamines, and while these may be less reactive towards LSD [questionable], some chlorine will be produced via enzymatic breakdown resulting in similar reactions as shown below.
One would then perhaps expect chlorine in tap water to be predominately made up of dissolved chlorine gas as Cl2, and Cl- ( chloride ions). There will however, also be some free radical chlorine (Cl*). In reacting with organic materials in the presence of other dissolved species, free radicals will produce other reactive species, too numerous to list. In the presence of LSD or a similar molecule of relative fragility, any of the resulting reactions with free radicals would effectively destroy the molecule.
Nucleophilic Addition & Free Radicals
When learning double bond addition chemistry, it is usual to describe the actions of halogens on the ethylene molecule ( CH2=CH2 ). Different mechanisms exist for nucleophilic attack when chlorine ( & Bromine & sometimes Iodine) exists either as a gas (Cl2), as the chloride ion (Cl-) (present as hydrochloric acid H+Cl-), and as a free radical (Cl*). If addition across a double bond results in a mono-halo-compound, Markivnokov orientation usually occurs which says the halogen will bond to the most substituted carbon. Radical addition however, is non-Markivnokov, resulting in the halogen attaching to the least substituted carbon. Relating this to the susceptible double bond of LSD, position 9 is the least substituted of the two.
Free radicals are often produced by the action of UV (sunlight) on water containing dissolved chlorine, but small amounts are produced with seemingly no such energy source. To prevent Cl* forming in the lab, special reaction conditions are usually employed. During the formation of Cl- free ions in tap water purification, some free radicals would also be produced. These may destroy several molecules before forming more stable Chloro-LSD compounds. Other parts of the LSD molecule are also susceptible to attack by free radicals.
Susceptibility of LSD's weak double bond to nucleophilic attack
The double bond on the LSD molecule (across positions 9 & 10) differs somewhat from the ethylene molecule. This has to do with electron densities, conjugation, and other effects from bonded and neighboring groups (an in-depth look perhaps being a bit beyond the scope of this explanation /hypothesis).
This double bond (across positions 9 & 10) is very fragile because of differences in electron density across the pi bonds, due among other things to the effects of substituted groups on each carbon (9 & 10).
When exposed to tap water, the relative concentrations of each substance present (Chlorine and LSD) ultimately equates to using a molar excess of Chlorine in the lab.
Molecular weights and the destructive relationship of chlorine and LSD
The amounts of Chlorine present in tap water should be no more than 5mg/L. 10 mL therefore contains a possible 0.05mg or 50ug of Cl2 (or Cl-) At first glance it doesn't seem that much, with reason saying a large drop (~ 100uL) of water contains a miniscule 0.5ug
To get an initial idea of how much this actually represents, we look at what reacts with what. We are not concerned with direct weight for weight relationships, but rather in the molar relationship of the substances. If an ideal chemical reaction states:
Compound A + Compound B = Compound C
To a chemist, this implies 1 mole of A reacts with one mole of B to produce 1 mole of C. It does not say 1 gram of A + 1 gram of B = 1 gram of C. Atomic weights (found on most periodic tables) are added together for each element present, to give the molecular weight = to 1 mole of a compound.
Example 1: 1 mole of pure water equals approximately 18 grams
H = 1.0079g O = 15.999g therefore H2O = ~18, which means 1 mole of water is ~18g.
Of course it’s possible to have far less than 1 mole of a substance, but if conditions exist so that substance A reacts mole for mole with substance B, it only takes a corresponding amount of the substance B (in moles) to potentially alter all of the substance A.
Example 2: How 50ug of Chlorine "equals" 235ug of LSD
1 mole of Chlorine (Cl2) = ~70.9g (also = to 2 x 35.45g of Cl-) 1 mole of LSD = 323.44g,
50ug of Chlorine = 0.00005g / 70.90g = 7.05 E-07 moles 50ug of LSD = 0.00005g/ 323.44g = 1.50E-07 moles
Therefore, on a molar basis, if 1 mole of chlorine reacts with 1 mole of LSD, expressing that as a weight for weight value means 1 gram of chlorine would destroy 4.7 grams of LSD (from above; 7.05 / 1.5 = 4.7)
Referring to Reactions in 1,2,3 and 4 listed below
In this way, 1 mole of LSD can react with 1 mole of chlorine as Cl2. But as reaction 3 demonstrates, in the presence of water the reaction goes further, releasing 1 chlorine ion, which may in turn react with another LSD molecule via reaction 2
In the above reasoning, it is assumed 1 mole of chlorine will react with 1 mole of LSD. This means 50ug of Cl2 can destroy 235ug of LSD. But if a chloride ion was to be generated each time, this could effectively mean 470ug of LSD may be destroyed by 50ug of Chlorine. Unfortunately, it does not stop there. This is merely one reaction sequence which may occur, and it is less severe by far than the free radical mechanism of Reaction 4 (below).
Example 3; Typical reactions involving LSD and Chlorine
Representative of many similar reactions, any of the following 4 examples will result in the de-activation of LSD’s psychotropic properties.
Reaction:
LSD + Cl2 = dichloro-LSD LSD + Cl- = chloro-LSD LSD + Cl2 + H2O = halohydrin-LSD + H+Cl- (see diagram 1 below) LSD + Cl* = Chloro-LSD* + HCl => Cl2 + Chloro-LSD* =Cl* + Chloro-LSD. Repeat over and over.
These steps in Reaction 4 should be looked upon as likely first steps rather than a beginning to end fate of LSD in the presence of a Chlorine radical. Other rearrangements, intra and intermolecular reactions would also occur over time, possibly producing structures only remotely similar to that of the original LSD molecule.
Diagram 1: Proposed mechanisms involved in Reaction 3:
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
Edited by wolf8312 (05/23/15 06:04 AM)
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: wolf8312]
#21713239 - 05/23/15 07:04 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
The tap water has nothing to do with anything. Are you on any SSRI's? Or are you a teenager with no experience with LSD, if so your friend might have "tripped out" because he thought he took LSD not because he actually did. If it was real LSD everyone should have tripped, that's how it works, it doesn't pick and choose who gets high and who doesn't.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,359
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: bubbleswag]
#21713636 - 05/23/15 09:57 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
It could have been the tap water, i wouldnt rule it out.
It only takes a few micrograms of chlorine to destroy LSD. Out of light/heat/moisture, chlorine kills LSD on contact.
Another possibly is if you are on specific medications like SSRIs (as already mentioneed).
So, never put tap water in your mouth while eating Acid.
Lastly, does "SWIM" stand for Someone Who Is Myself?
-------------------- "What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏
  Oregon Eclipse Festival 2017 :: Aug 19th - 21st :: Pure Paradise   Very Effective LSA Extraction Tek | 💧 Advanced Cold Water LSA Extraction Method 💧 |  Mescajuana - Mescaline with Marijuana | DMT Dab Bongs | UFO Technology! Shpongle
     
|
Bill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#21714601 - 05/23/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
SWIM= Someone Who Isnt Me
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#21714634 - 05/23/15 03:48 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bill_Oreilly said: SWIM= Someone Who Isnt Me
I think LogicaL was making a joke
--------------------
|
MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


Registered: 05/28/14
Posts: 4,345
Loc: North
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: Achillita]
#21714647 - 05/23/15 03:51 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I know this isn't the point.
But, why would you drink tap water?
|
Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: MajickMuffin]
#21714750 - 05/23/15 04:18 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I drink tap water... It's like 10000000x cheaper, and it doesn't cause as much pollution to the planet as plastic bottles.
--------------------
|
Bill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


Registered: 11/12/11
Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: Achillita]
#21715003 - 05/23/15 05:45 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Achillita said:
Quote:
Bill_Oreilly said: SWIM= Someone Who Isnt Me
I think LogicaL was making a joke 
aw shucks
-------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
|
LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,359
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
#21715010 - 05/23/15 05:49 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Not my best joke, but I gave it my best 
Or should i say SWIM gave it his best
|
Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#21715039 - 05/23/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Shulgin even States in TIHKAL
LSD is an unusually fragile molecule and some comments are in order as to its stability and storage. As a salt, in water, cold, and free from air and light exposure, it is stable indefinitely. There are two sensitive aspects of its structure. The position of the carboxamide attachment, the 8-position, is affected by basic, or high pH, conditions. Through a process called epimerization, this position can scramble, producing isolysergic acid diethylamide, or iso-LSD. This product is biologically inactive, and represents a loss of a proportionate amount of active product. A second and separate point of instability is the double bond that lies between this 8-position and the aromatic ring. Water or alcohol can add to this site, especially in the presence of light (sunlight with its ultraviolet energy is notoriously bad) to form a product that has been called lumi-LSD, which is totally inactive in man. Oh yes, and often overlooked, there may be only an infinitesimal amount of chlorine in treated tap water, but then there is only an infinitesimal amount of LSD in a typical LSD solution. And since chlorine will destroy LSD on contact, the dissolving of LSD in tap water is not appropriate.
|
Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
|
Oh yes, and often overlooked, there may be only an infinitesimal amount of chlorine in treated tap water, but then there is only an infinitesimal amount of LSD in a typical LSD solution. And since chlorine will destroy LSD on contact, the dissolving of LSD in tap water is not appropriate-Alexander shulgin TIHKAL.
I believe 100% that tap water may have ruined your dose....
-E. Borodin
|
Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
|
MAY have....I consider it a possibility, I'm in no way saying that's what happened.
-E. Borodin
|
Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
|
Wolf8312 said " He didnt really mention anything about how quick chlorine will react with the LSD but he makes it clear enough that chlorine even miniscule amounts is not something you want anywhere near your LSD."
According to shulgin chlorine destroys LSD on contact, so basically instantly, right?
-E. Borodin
|
TheGreenArrow
Goodbye, Mr. Chops.



Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 15,270
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
|
Well it also could have to do with certain people's natural tolerance to LSD and other psychedelics. I've personally seen it, some people just need MORE to trip. Like they've got either a stronger pre-set reality tunnel as in an Obsessive Compulsive disorder or an Autistic individual; or I've also seen people that had really REALLY strong liver enzymes. (After them trying harmala alkaloids before LSD they tripped fine on 2 tabs. )
Not saying that it was this or wasn't but there is definitely literature published by Grof that would back up the 1st theory. I can only give antecdotal evidence for the latter.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
|
Trypto-Fan
Warrior



Registered: 10/01/14
Posts: 1,613
Loc: UK
Last seen: 2 months, 30 days
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: MajickMuffin]
#21716612 - 05/24/15 06:11 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MajickMuffin said: I know this isn't the point.
But, why would you drink tap water?
What do you drink if you dont drink tap water? :/
|
Coincidentiaoppositorum
deep psychedelic


Registered: 10/27/14
Posts: 1,965
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: 2 tabs nothing happened. Tap water? [Re: TheGreenArrow] 1
#21716646 - 05/24/15 06:34 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: Well it also could have to do with certain people's natural tolerance to LSD and other psychedelics. I've personally seen it, some people just need MORE to trip. Like they've got either a stronger pre-set reality tunnel as in an Obsessive Compulsive disorder or an Autistic individual; or I've also seen people that had really REALLY strong liver enzymes. (After them trying harmala alkaloids before LSD they tripped fine on 2 tabs. )
Not saying that it was this or wasn't but there is definitely literature published by Grof that would back up the 1st theory. I can only give antecdotal evidence for the latter.
When your speaking about "hard-headedness" with psychedelics (meaning why some need more than others) I have a theory....in studies performed there were mice whose genetic code was altered so they were born without 5ht2c/5ht2a receptors, it was found psychedelics had no effect on these mice, due to these compounds key agonism at those sites....now its a gene that determines the number of these receptors, and humans have this gene as well, so the humans who can almost never feel psychedelics are likley born with very few 5HT2a/5HT2C receptors, due to a gene responsible for their production.
Though its common knowledge that you NEVER mix or take LSD with tap water......
(You must used filtered, bottled, or even rain water)
-E. Borodin
|
|