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InvisibleInnvertigo
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If ya didn't help you can't benefit.
    #2171070 - 12/10/03 07:32 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

No contracts for those that did not help

tee hee...i'm laughing because it's funny and sad at the same time.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2171083 - 12/10/03 08:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Every once in awhile, something happens to give you hope that there are still some that use common sense.
This, is one of those moments.

Sweet poetic justice.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2171092 - 12/10/03 08:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Those countries are like little kids having a temper tantrum "wahhhhhhhh we know it's your money but we want some WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!"

no at least we know that those countries ONLY want the money.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2171101 - 12/10/03 09:10 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

benefit?

so theres money to be made from post war cleanup and rebuilding?

explain!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: ]
    #2171115 - 12/10/03 09:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What's to explain?

The benefit would be those countries that didn't risk anything getting the building contracts (among other contracts) of aboot 18 billion dollars. I'm sad that we're spending the 18 billion but happy that it will go to those countries that risked something.. It's all in the article.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleblink
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2171122 - 12/10/03 10:10 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Iraq is a prize to be won, enjoy the spoils of war.
Just more American Foreign Policy that creates more rifts in potential allies than any kind of understanding.

And you guys need to hire independant analysts to figure out why people hate you...


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Invisibleblink
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2171123 - 12/10/03 10:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Iraq is a prize to be won, enjoy the spoils of war.
Just more American Foreign Policy that creates more rifts in potential allies than any kind of understanding.

And you guys need to hire independant analysts to figure out why people hate you...

Canada contributed 250 million to your war on terror, chump change i guess

I don't know why my posts arent being entered until 2 minutes after I post...


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: ]
    #2171209 - 12/11/03 05:48 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

so theres money to be made from post war cleanup and rebuilding?




Of course. That's what this war was about (besides oil :smile: ). First bomb a country with weapons financed out of taxpayers money and then rebuild it with taxpayers money. It's the only way to take away money from people and give it to corporations in a democracy. Dictatorships don't have to make this extra steps to hide their intents, they just take the money.
And it makes perfect sense that only those who contributed get the benefits. Not only countries that were shameless enough to support this shit also companies that financed elections will have advantages in getting contracts. Why would they invest in polititians anyway?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: blink]
    #2171217 - 12/11/03 07:08 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And you guys need to hire independant analysts to figure out why people hate you...




most of us don't give a shit WHY you hate us. You'll hate us no matter what we do. Besides there is aboot 18 billion in international contracts that are available to everyone, the other 18 billion is from OUR country and would be looked down upon if countries like france got to benefit from our tax money.

Quote:

Canada contributed 250 million to your war on terror, chump change i guess




I think it's closer to 300 million, and the 18 billion is still ours, go after the international contracts.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2171219 - 12/11/03 07:13 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

no at least we know that those countries ONLY want the money.




Not like the coalition that sincerly cares about the freedom of Iraquis.
:lol:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: zeronio]
    #2171232 - 12/11/03 07:40 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

one freed them and others didn't so your point is moot.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: blink]
    #2171266 - 12/11/03 02:51 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

blinkidiot said:
Iraq is a prize to be won, enjoy the spoils of war.
Just more American Foreign Policy that creates more rifts in potential allies than any kind of understanding.





Agreed. This hardly dispels the image that Bush and his gang were out to help their corporate buddies profit from the war.

What happened to the free market all of a sudden? Surely proper competition on the contracts means that the Iraqis could get the most experienced people for the job, and the American public get the most value for their tax dollars (how much are Halliburton charging for petrol again?).

This is supposed to be about helping the Iraqis isn't it? What benefit do they gain by having their reconstruction deliberately limited to coalition companies? If a Canadian or French company can do a better job than Bechtel and for less money, why should the Iraqi people be denied this?

Take a look at how Bechtel is using your tax money:

Quote:


Bechtel's work on Iraqi schools earns low marks

By TARA COPP, SCRIPPS HOWARD NEWS SERVICE

BAGHDAD, Iraq (SH) - On its corporate Web site, under a page titled "A Fresh Start for Iraqi School Children," Bechtel Group showcases sparkling new classrooms filled with happy, young Iraqi students.

But the reality is far different, according to Army investigators.

"In almost every case, the paint jobs were done in a hurry, causing more damage to the appearance of the school than in terms of providing a finish that will protect the structure," a recent Army investigation into Bechtel's work found. "In one case, the paint job actually damaged critical lab equipment, making it unusable."

Bechtel is one of the biggest corporate winners of U.S. contracts to rebuild Iraq. Before the war ended, it received a $680 million contract to fix Iraq's electrical grids, water ports and more than 1,200 schools. In October, it won an additional $350 million contract to continue the electrical work.

Bechtel has stressed that the schools in question are a small percentage of schools it has fixed, working in extreme conditions that often put its employees' lives at risk. Company spokesman Francis Canavan said he had no knowledge of an Army investigation, and that "every school was signed off by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers."

"However, inspection took place when school was not in session," Canavan said. "Faulty repairs did not become evident until the schools were in use."

Besides Bechtel, each Iraqi school also had an Army Civil Affairs unit - a group of reservists who often work as civil engineers at home - assigned to help get the schools up and running. Many of the schools also had nonprofit agencies and the local Iraqi school board involved.

According to Iraqi education officials, Bechtel budgeted about $20,000 per school for repairs. That budget may not seem like much compared to U.S. rates, but laborers here work for $2 to $7 a day. Bechtel subcontracted out the work to Iraqis for an undisclosed amount.

During repairs, "reports started coming in about poor quality," said 422nd Civil Affairs Battalion Maj. Linda Scharf, who was responsible for the schools in question, and who started fielding calls from concerned teachers and headmasters.

"So I asked one of my teams to go verify the rumors," Scharf said. "They took their digital camera, and the reality turned out to be worse than the rumors."

What they found: The subcontractors Bechtel hired left paint everywhere - on the floors, on desks, all over windows. The classrooms were filthy, the school's desks and chairs were thrown out into the playground and left, broken. Windows were left damaged, and bathrooms that were reportedly fixed were left in broken, unsanitary condition.


"Would you allow your child to use that bathroom? I wouldn't," Scharf said, pointing to a photograph of a stained, broken hole in a dirty, tiled stall.

Iraqi Education Ministry city planner Israa Mohammed had received complaints from the schools, too, and tried to get Bechtel officials to address them before classes started, she said. But Bechtel officials would not attend regular education ministry meetings or answer her questions, she said.

"Because it is an American company, they didn't allow anyone to control them," she said.

For her part, Mohammed doesn't know what Bechtel spent the money on.

"When we see the work, it's not like that (expensive renovations) - it's just very simple repairs," Mohammed said.

For the soldiers who've been here since the war trying to build trust with the Iraqis, the work was insulting.

"Right now we are looking at a company who is representing the United States, doing poor work in Iraq and allowed to get away with it," Scharf said. "You see the kind of work we're leaving behind, and then of course the question comes up: Who is going to come back and fix all this?"

In response to the complaints, the Army looked into 20 of Bechtel's schools. In the Oct. 11 memo, it found that nine schools were left in "poor" condition, with no electricity or bathrooms at the start of the school year. Five were rated "fair" but still had hazardous construction material and needed minor repairs. Four were deemed "good," and two "outstanding," the report found.

On the "poor"-quality schools, the Army recommended that Bechtel immediately work with school officials to see what needs to be done. If repairs can't be made quickly in the worst-off schools, the Army recommended using U.S. funds "to ensure at least functioning bathroom facilities and running water."

Now Bechtel has "received inquiries" on 40 of the schools it contracted to repair, Canavan said. It has directed its subcontractors to make repairs, and is holding 10 percent of the subcontractors' payment to ensure that repairs will be made.

When Scharf read the Bechtel response, she simply laughed out loud. And Mohammed said if she had the authority, she wouldn't hire Bechtel again.

"Bechtel was working just for its image, not for the benefit of the students," Mohammed said. Beyond the paint everywhere, Mohammed said students had to pick up their broken desks from the courtyard before classes could begin.

"It's the same injustice as before (during Saddam Hussein's reign)," Mohammed said. "Students had to clean and work in the schools then, and it is the same now."

Scharf said that, "because of the work in the schools, I have come out very vocal that I will do everything in my power to keep Bechtel out of my area."






But really, Bush's administration has the Iraqi people's best interests at heart. It has nothing to do with getting back at the 'surrender-monkeys', it's 'national security', honest.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Edame]
    #2171273 - 12/11/03 03:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What happened to the free market all of a sudden?




The free market does not apply to other countries when it's OUR tax money. There is still 18 Billion in international contracts.....or did you miss that part?

Quote:

Surely proper competition on the contracts means that the Iraqis could get the most experienced people for the job, and the American public get the most value for their tax dollars




they are getting the most value for their tax dollars, what makes you think France could hold a candle to any of the 60 some countries that will be allowed to bid?

it all comes down to one basic premis: It's OUR money and we have the right to choose who we want to spend it on.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2171284 - 12/11/03 04:10 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The free market does not apply to other countries when it's OUR tax money.

Which seems to confirm my thoughts that the wellbeing of the Iraqi people comes second to the interests of US companies and their no-bid contracts.


There is still 18 Billion in international contracts.....or did you miss that part?

Maybe my reading comprehension needs some work. I obviously misread the paragraph:

Countries that did not back the U.S.-led coalition that toppled Saddam Hussein will not be eligible to compete for $18.6 billion worth of contracts, according to U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz.

I must be mistaken in thinking that the non-coalition countries will not be eligable for the 18 billion you mention (unless you're referring to another 18 billion).

they are getting the most value for their tax dollars, what makes you think France could hold a candle to any of the 60 some countries that will be allowed to bid?

How do you know they are getting value for money? Do you mean value for money like this?

Iraqi's state oil company, SOMO, pays 96 cents a gallon to bring in gas, which includes the cost of gasoline and transportation costs, the aides to Mr. Waxman said. The gasoline transported by SOMO ? and by Halliburton's subcontractor ? are delivered to the same depots in Iraq and often use the same military escorts.

The Pentagon's Defense Energy Support Center pays $1.08 to $1.19 per gallon for the gas it imports from Kuwait, Congressional aides said. That includes the price of the gas and its transportation costs.


Halliburton charge $2.64 per gallon by the way.

How do you know France couldn't do a better job? I seem to recall that France had contracts with Iraq before the invasion, they probably have a lot of experience dealing with this kind of work, and with the Iraqis.

it all comes down to one basic premis: It's OUR money and we have the right to choose who we want to spend it on.

You're right of course, but it still makes this decision look utterly childish to me.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Anonymous

Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Edame]
    #2171306 - 12/11/03 05:09 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

the $18 billion in reconstruction contracts we're talking about here is not just some $18 billion sitting in iraq to be divied up. it's not as though we're talking about what we should do with $18 billion in hidden iraqi oil reserves we just found... or $18 billion in hidden cash reserves or something. we are not talking about the "spoils of war". we are talking about money that is to be paid to rebuild iraq... if the US government, while rebuilding iraq's infrastructure (courtesy of the american tax payer), chooses to boycott companies based in nations that opposed the war, there's absolutely nothing wrong about that.


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2172246 - 12/12/03 05:21 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

one freed them and others didn't so your point is moot.




Why do they keep telling us that this war was about liberation? Because it doesn't seem so.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: zeronio]
    #2172737 - 12/12/03 12:24 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Let me guess, it's all aboot oil?

"if it walks like a duck it's probably a conspiricy by the united states to infiltrate the duck world."

give me a break.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinegrib
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2173131 - 12/12/03 04:26 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sweet poetic justice.




You said it man! Give the contracts to Halliburton, et. al. We don't need no stin-king competition! After all, the shrub administration policy to exclude competition is the next logical step from no-bid contracts.

The price paid by the US taxpayer is a moot pointl...


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: grib]
    #2173190 - 12/12/03 05:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Surely you can see a difference between a no bid contract (which is wrong but Haliburton was awarded that deal years ago) and not letting countries who didn't help out benefit?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleblink
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Re: If ya didn't help you can't benefit. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2173587 - 12/12/03 09:30 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I understand their reason for not doing so. They are trying to drag us in again (and with Paul Martin as a Canadian Prime Minister, they have a good chance at that) but it really is going against this feeling of unity with the rest ofthe world they are looking for to validate their invasion of Iraq and the ensuing occupation.


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